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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2012,05:54) Hi KW,
It all hinges on a comma and the meaning of BUT
Nick;That is often the case.
Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,19:53) T; It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “and he died”. Why do you seek to add it.
Enoch was not found because he; both body and soul; was taken by God.
Kit does not say he lived on in heaven neither ;
why adding to what is not said
Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2012,09:56) Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,19:53) T; It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “and he died”. Why do you seek to add it.
Enoch was not found because he; both body and soul; was taken by God.
Kit does not say he lived on in heaven neither ;
why adding to what is not said
T;It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “he did not experience death”; what is written instead of dying is that he was not because God took him. That is understood to mean he did not see death because he was translated; since this is the report of Enoch as interpreted by Hebrews.
Enoch was translated:
Hebrews 11:5
King James Version (KJV)5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Believers are translated into the kingdom:
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Kerwin………Saying He was “NOT” is the same as saying he no longer EXISTED. When a man dies he does “NOT” EXIST any longer in any form as a “LIVING” SOUL. Non have risen to eternal life But ONE Jesus the Christ. He is the First risen to life eternal of all the physical creation of God. Just that simple Kerwin.
peace and love brother………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2012,20:30) Kerwin………Saying He was “NOT” is the same as saying he no longer EXISTED. When a man dies he does “NOT” EXIST any longer in any form as a “LIVING” SOUL. Non have risen to eternal life But ONE Jesus the Christ. He is the First risen to life eternal of all the physical creation of God. Just that simple Kerwin. peace and love brother………………………………………………………gene
Gene;According to the writer of Hebrew's interpretation of the account “not” means “not found”. There is nothing supporting the idea Enoch stopped existing.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2012,01:37) Hi KW,
Certainly those loved by God are ever alive to Him.
Grace follows grace
Nick;What you state is true; but I do not know what you are responding to.
Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2012,01:58) Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2012,09:56) Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,19:53) T; It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “and he died”. Why do you seek to add it.
Enoch was not found because he; both body and soul; was taken by God.
Kit does not say he lived on in heaven neither ;
why adding to what is not said
T;It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “he did not experience death”; what is written instead of dying is that he was not because God took him. That is understood to mean he did not see death because he was translated; since this is the report of Enoch as interpreted by Hebrews.
Enoch was translated:
Hebrews 11:5
King James Version (KJV)5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Believers are translated into the kingdom:
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
KI am not catholic so I do not believe in translation without dead ,
show me in scriptures that this is supported
T;
Quote K I am not catholic so I do not believe in translation without dead ,
show me in scriptures that this is supported
Do you believe these words?
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
If so then you know that believers are spiritually translated into the kingdom while still living in their mortal bodies. When the body is translated then it is finished. Are those whose body is translated into the kingdom found in this world?
It is written that Enoch’s body and soul “was not found, because God had translated him”
Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2012,20:42) T; Quote K I am not catholic so I do not believe in translation without dead ,
show me in scriptures that this is supported
Do you believe these words?
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
If so then you know that believers are spiritually translated into the kingdom while still living in their mortal bodies. When the body is translated then it is finished. Are those whose body is translated into the kingdom found in this world?
It is written that Enoch’s body and soul “was not found, because God had translated him”
Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Col 1:4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints—
Col 1:5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel
Col 1:6 that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.
Col 1:7 You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf,
Col 1:8 and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.If you can base your believe on what Paul says ,well GOOD FOR YOU BECAUSE I CAN NOT
Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2012,06:29) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2012,20:30) Kerwin………Saying He was “NOT” is the same as saying he no longer EXISTED. When a man dies he does “NOT” EXIST any longer in any form as a “LIVING” SOUL. Non have risen to eternal life But ONE Jesus the Christ. He is the First risen to life eternal of all the physical creation of God. Just that simple Kerwin. peace and love brother………………………………………………………gene
Gene;According to the writer of Hebrew's interpretation of the account “not” means “not found”. There is nothing supporting the idea Enoch stopped existing.
Kerwin…………Brother, Not found , Not no More, Not here, All mean “NOT” all mean no longer existent. Not is a specific word which means no longer exists.If Enoch continued to exist then please show scripture showing it. Being translated so he did not “TASTE” Death is a far cry from saying, he never died. “TASTE” implies “EXPERIENCE” and experience implies a process. Enoch never “EXPERIENCED” DYING. I have produced scriptures out of Hebrews that Show “PLAINLY” “ALL” these have died not receiving the promise, because God has chosen a better thing for us that they without us should not recieve the promise of eternal life. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Mike;Thank you for that point of view of that Scripture; which I believed refer to being alive spiritually. The souls under the altar are still looking forward to the time of Resurrection.
Leviticus 17:11
King James Version (KJV)11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
and
Hebrews 13:10
King James Version (KJV)10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 16 2012,21:18) Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2012,06:29) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2012,20:30) Kerwin………Saying He was “NOT” is the same as saying he no longer EXISTED. When a man dies he does “NOT” EXIST any longer in any form as a “LIVING” SOUL. Non have risen to eternal life But ONE Jesus the Christ. He is the First risen to life eternal of all the physical creation of God. Just that simple Kerwin. peace and love brother………………………………………………………gene
Gene;According to the writer of Hebrew's interpretation of the account “not” means “not found”. There is nothing supporting the idea Enoch stopped existing.
Kerwin…………Brother, Not found , Not no More, Not here, All mean “NOT” all mean no longer existent. Not is a specific word which means no longer exists.If Enoch continued to exist then please show scripture showing it. Being translated so he did not “TASTE” Death is a far cry from saying, he never died. “TASTE” implies “EXPERIENCE” and experience implies a process. Enoch never “EXPERIENCED” DYING. I have produced scriptures out of Hebrews that Show “PLAINLY” “ALL” these have died not receiving the promise, because God has chosen a better thing for us that they without us should not recieve the promise of eternal life. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………..gene
Gene;You choose not to believe the Scripture that reveals Enoch continues to exist; but is in heaven. Scripture addresses what occurs on earth; and even then it does not cover what happens in many lands.
Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,11:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Mike;Thank you for that point of view of that Scripture; which I believed refer to being alive spiritually.
Hi Kerwin,When Paul speaks of Christ being made alive by the resurrection, he is not speaking figuratively, but literally. Why then would you not assume that he spoke literally of “the firstfruits” also?
Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2012,17:30) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94,
Jesus did not put it that way.
But believe what you will.
Hi Nick:Is the following a true statement?
No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous.
Hi Kerwin:Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection.
Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I see no evidence to support the hypothesis Jesus was speaking from a time frame in the future of the one he was at. He has not yet physically descended from heaven.
Spiritually he had both descended, ascended, as well as was still in heaven at that time.
Enoch and Elijah physically ascended to heaven so that verse does not apply to them.
Jesus' spiritual origins, destination, and location is more important to Yawheh than his physical ones.
Hi KW:The evidence of him speaking of the future ascension is that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of being born again, and that means born again from the dead. No man had been born again that time or could be born again from the dead until Jesus obeyed God without sin unto death, and consequently, was the firstborn from the dead.
Enoch was translated that he would not taste death, and if he ascended into heaven, he did not ascend from the dead, and neither did Elijah. The scripture states that he went up to heaven in a whirlwind. He also did not ascend into heaven from the dead.
And I do not know what you mean by the statement:
Quote Jesus' spiritual origins, destination, and location is more important to Yawheh than his physical ones. His origin is spiritual, body and spirit.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi,
The human body must be changed to enter heaven.
Only Jesus has the new body.
phil3
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,23:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,11:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Mike;Thank you for that point of view of that Scripture; which I believed refer to being alive spiritually.
Hi Kerwin,When Paul speaks of Christ being made alive by the resurrection, he is not speaking figuratively, but literally. Why then would you not assume that he spoke literally of “the firstfruits” also?
Mike;People are made spiritually alive in Christ. Never the less that passage could be speaking of those made physically alive. That hypothesis is new to me and I have not looked into it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2012,01:25) Hi KW,
Where does scripture say ENOCH is in heaven?
Nick;Scripture states Enoch was not found in this world.
Scriptures states God created the heavens and the earth.
Scripture lists the creation of the sky and all thinks in the sky as part of the creation of the earth.
Not found in the earth leaves only the heavens left for God to have taken him.
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