Do men ever go to heaven?

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94, Jesus did not put it that way. But believe what you will. Hi Nick: Is the following a true statement? No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous.

Hi Kerwin:

Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection.

Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
so you say.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2012,18:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,15:00) so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO, Pierre, Jesus was the first to be raised FROM THE DEAD.  Enoch and Elijah never died.

Mike

GE 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

this is what scriptures are saying,right ? yes

tell me if Enoch did not die why would God give him the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
those things are not need it if you do not die ,right
but it is good for those who are departing in sleep (dead)

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05)

Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94, Jesus did not put it that way. But believe what you will. Hi Nick: Is the following a true statement? No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous. Hi Kerwin: Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Look at Jesus' words.  He is stating no one in his past has ascended to heaven but he,himself.  He had not yet physically ascended to heaven.  He has spiritually ascended at time.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2012,00:36)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94, Jesus did not put it that way. But believe what you will. Hi Nick: Is the following a true statement? No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous. Hi Kerwin: Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Look at Jesus' words.  He is stating no one in his past has ascended to heaven but he,himself.  He had not yet physically ascended to heaven.  He has spiritually ascended at time.

K

what about Christ decend from heaven and born of a maiden ??

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2012,13:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2012,18:05) Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,15:00) so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO, Pierre, Jesus was the first to be raised FROM THE DEAD.  Enoch and Elijah never died. Mike GE 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. this is what scriptures are saying,right ? yes tell me if Enoch did not die why would God give him the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. those things are not need it if you do not die ,right but it is good for those who are departing in sleep (dead)

Treeicca…………..Good post , and yes Enoch did die and is still waiting for the resurrection that will wittiness the redemption of his body. There is none who has risen from the dead to eternal life but Jesus alone at this time. IMO

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2012,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ May 03 2012,11:31) Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2012,22:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2012,09:46) Hi KW, You ask “When Scripture states Jesus was taken up to heaven you believe it is to God's abode and yet when  Scripture states Elijah was taken to heaven you do not.  Why do you use different standards? “ Dan 8.13 No other men are seen in heaven in Revelation Nick, Saints are human beings. Unlike the case with Jesus at his Transfiguration they  do not name the two. Twenty four elders are often mentioned in Revelations and at least one speaks with John. K and N Christ suppose to be returning from were he came ,what Elijah did not because he was a man from earth . T, According to Jude's quote of Enoch; Jesus is not coming alone. In addition Jesus spoke to both Enoch and Mosses before he was transfigured. Daniel also describes two saints in Dan 8.13.

K

That is a different story

[NickHassan]

T,

Hi KW,
You say
“According to Jude's quote of Enoch; Jesus is not coming alone.'

Jesus comes TO EARTH with the saints after the earth is cleansed and renewed[Rev 21]

“In addition Jesus spoke to both Enoch and Mosses before he was transfigured.”

ENOCH or Elijah?

“Daniel also describes two saints in Dan 8.13.”

HOLY ONES are not necessarily men but angelic sons or elders like Gabriel who is mentioned in the subsequent verses.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,20:46)

tell me if Enoch did not die why would God give him the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. those things are not need it if you do not die ,right but it is good for those who are departing in sleep (dead)

Pierre,

I can't imagine how it would make a difference whether God told Enoch, “You please me so I'M GOING TO take you up”, or whether God told him, “You DID please me so I DID take you up”.

Are there any scriptural guidelines to such an occurance?

Listen Pierre…………..we obviously understand Enoch and Elijah being taken up differently.  I'm okay with this difference – and I doubt it is a matter that would keep either of us from eternal life.  

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2012,08:02)

There is none who has risen from the dead to eternal life but Jesus alone at this time. IMO

Gene,

I'm pretty confidant that some of Jesus' disciples have already ascended to heaven after him. Those are the souls under the altar in Revelation – and the ones to whom Jesus said they would not taste death before he comes again. Surely there aren't 2000 year old disciples of Jesus roaming the earth, right?

So I don't agree with your “at this time” comment. I do, however, agree with you that at the time Jesus was raised from the dead, there had been none who had risen from the dead to eternal life.

But you need to remember that Enoch and Elijah never died in the first place, and therefore were never raised “FROM the dead”.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You are sure but what help is that?
Is it written?

[mikeboll64]

Yes Nick:

Revelation 6:9-11

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?

[mikeboll64]

What did those souls used to be, Nick? Human beings who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Perhaps the mansions of Christ are under the heavenly altar??

[mikeboll64]

The altar is before the throne of God (Rev 8:3) and before God (Rev 9:13)

So where those souls are, so is God.

So Ed, will we just keep circling around this same information we've already discussed? Or do you perhaps have a SCRIPTURAL reason that my understanding is flawed?

(Note to Gene and Nick and Kerwin: I called Nick “Ed” to show that Nick is ACTING LIKE Ed by bringing up stuff I've already answered a number of times before. My calling Nick “Ed” in no way implies that Nick has been possessed by the spirit of Ed. )

[942767]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2012,01:02)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2012,13:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2012,18:05) Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,15:00) so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO, Pierre, Jesus was the first to be raised FROM THE DEAD.  Enoch and Elijah never died. Mike GE 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. this is what scriptures are saying,right ? yes tell me if Enoch did not die why would God give him the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. those things are not need it if you do not die ,right but it is good for those who are departing in sleep (dead) Treeicca…………..Good post , and yes Enoch did die and is still waiting for the resurrection that will wittiness the redemption of his body. There is none who has risen from the dead to eternal life but Jesus alone at this time. IMO

No, Gene:

The scripture states that Enoch was “translated that he would not die”.

Quote

Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So he went to the same place but bypassed death.

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,17:36)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94, Jesus did not put it that way. But believe what you will. Hi Nick: Is the following a true statement? No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous. Hi Kerwin: Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Look at Jesus' words.  He is stating no one in his past has ascended to heaven but he,himself.  He had not yet physically ascended to heaven.  He has spiritually ascended at time.

Hi pKerwin:

The discussion in this chapter prior to Jesus statement in this scripture is about being born again, and Jesus is the firstborn again from the dead.  This is how the Amplified bible has it:

“John 3:12-13 If I told you of things that happen right here on earth, and yet none of you believes me, how can you believe-trust me, adhere to me, rely on me-if I tell you heavenly things?

And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven; but there is One who has come down from heaven, the Son of man(Himself) Who is-dwells, whose home is-in heaven.'

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2012,21:59)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2012,01:02) Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2012,13:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2012,18:05) Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,15:00) so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO, Pierre, Jesus was the first to be raised FROM THE DEAD.  Enoch and Elijah never died. Mike GE 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. this is what scriptures are saying,right ? yes tell me if Enoch did not die why would God give him the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. those things are not need it if you do not die ,right but it is good for those who are departing in sleep (dead) Treeicca…………..Good post , and yes Enoch did die and is still waiting for the resurrection that will wittiness the redemption of his body. There is none who has risen from the dead to eternal life but Jesus alone at this time. IMO No, Gene:   The scripture states that Enoch was “translated that he would not die”. Quote Hbr 11:5   By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:   Love in Christ, Marty

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Ge 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.NIV

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.KJV

Ps 89:48 What man can live and not see death,
or save himself from the power of the grave ?

Selah

Ps 89:49 O Lord, where is your former great love,
which in your faithfulness you swore to David?
Ps 89:50 Remember, Lord, how your servant has been mocked,
how I bear in my heart the taunts of all the nations,
Ps 89:51 the taunts with which your enemies have mocked, O LORD,
with which they have mocked every step of your anointed one.

Ps 89:52 Praise be to the LORD forever!
Amen and Amen.

translated

trans·late (trnslt, trnz-, trns-lt, trnz-)
v. trans·lat·ed, trans·lat·ing, trans·lates
v.tr.
1. To render in another language.
2.
a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.
3.
a. To change from one form, function, or state to another; convert or transform: translate ideas into reality.
b. To express in another medium.
4. To transfer from one place or condition to another.
5. To forward or retransmit (a telegraphic message).
6.
a. Ecclesiastical To transfer (a bishop) to another see.
b. To convey to heaven without death.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
7. Physics To subject (a body) to translation.
8. Biology To subject (messenger RNA) to translation.
9. Archaic To enrapture.
v.intr.
1.
a. To make a translation.
b. To work as a translator.
2. To admit of translation.

TRANSLATED = b. To convey to heaven without death.

SCRIPTURES SAYS ;;Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;

SO IT SHOULD BE HE WAS TRANSLATED NOT TO SEE DEAD ,BUT DIED ,

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