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Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,16:16) Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
kATHIyou forgot what I have already shown you
God = the God of gods and Lord of lords
Christ = god Lord of lords
King of kings1CO 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Pierre,
I am not calling Christ the 'God of gods,' I am calling the Father the 'God of gods.' I am calling Christ the 'Lord of lords.' Jehovah is both…two persons…Father (God of gods) and Son (Lord of lords).BTW, Did you ever wonder why the Son felt like He needed to subject Himself? Hasn't He always been subject to the Father?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,16:38) Pierre,
I am not calling Christ the 'God of gods,' I am calling the Father the 'God of gods.' I am calling Christ the 'Lord of lords.' Jehovah is both…two persons…Father (God of gods) and Son (Lord of lords).BTW, Did you ever wonder why the Son felt like He needed to subject Himself? Hasn't He always been subject to the Father?
Kathiwhy then you try to make them a unit
?we all the righteous will be in unity with the father
Pierre,
Jesus calls He and the Father an “US” and we are one in that “US” (Father and Son). We (the body of Christ-not the body with Christ) are in THEM, both of THEM!John 17:20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
THEY are in unity as our supreme authority. We are to be united in THEM.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,20:41) Pierre,
Jesus calls He and the Father an “US” and we are one in that “US” (Father and Son). We (the body of Christ-not the body with Christ) are in THEM, both of THEM!John 17:20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
THEY are in unity as our supreme authority. We are to be united in THEM.
Kathino ,Christ did not call him and his father “US” tell me how would you spell what he says
without referring to him and his father as “US”this start to get ridiculous
Again, Pierre, your problem is with scripture. I put the scripture right there for you to show you that Jesus called Himself and His Father “US” and then bolded it to help you see it. I do not know what your problem is here. I don't really understand completely what you just wrote.
Lightenup…………the “US” is ALL who have the SPIRIT of GOD (IN) them , Not just Jesus and God the Father as you assume it to be. Or haven't you read where Jesus said to the Father “that they all might (ONE), I in You and you in me and and we in them. It is all ONE and the Same Spirit (intellect) that is in God Jesus and all who have (IT) in them, they are all the ONE, the US and the WE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,23:15) Again, Pierre, your problem is with scripture. I put the scripture right there for you to show you that Jesus called Himself and His Father “US” and then bolded it to help you see it. I do not know what your problem is here. I don't really understand completely what you just wrote.
time out
Gene,
It depends on the context. I see two on the highest throne and the rest surrounding the throne. All with the Spirit are a unity of sorts but not all are in unity as the supreme authority. I believe that the Father and the Son are in unity as our supreme authority. Do you believe that you will be a member of those in supreme authority or a member under those in supreme authority?Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,15:38) Hi AndrewAD,
I understand where you are coming from. I have read the writings of the early church fathers and there was a time that the Holy Spirit was not distinguished as a person. I have thought of their teachings as the early trinity…the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…two persons and the Spirit that proceeds from them.I think of Him (the Spirit) as the inner-person of the Father united with the inner-person of the Son which extends from them without ever leaving them. The Holy Spirit is their omnipresence so to speak. This omnipresence is controlled by the mind of the Father and the mind of Son. That is why the spirit of Christ can intercede for us, within us, with grumblings too deep for words.
Like you, I believe that God wants me in church also and I attend a Baptist church and I appreciate and love the people there. I can worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit with them.
I'm glad you are here. Where do you live, the States, NZ, where?
God bless you too!
Hi Lightenup,thanks so much for the warm response and I like the way you word your understanding of the Spirit and mention how He intercedes for us.For whether the Spirit be considered a separate person or not,He is certainly personal to us and is Christ within us,therefore not an impersonal force always considered an”it”.
And I am glad to be here on this forum and live in the Land of Oz,Kansas,USA.Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,06:20) Gene,
It depends on the context. I see two on the highest throne and the rest surrounding the throne. All with the Spirit are a unity of sorts but not all are in unity as the supreme authority. I believe that the Father and the Son are in unity as our supreme authority. Do you believe that you will be a member of those in supreme authority or a member under those in supreme authority?
Lightenup……………..I believe i will come beside Jesus in the Household of GOD as a “JOINT” Heir of the Kingdom of GOD, There is only “ONE” God of Me and Jesus Both. He is the one we all need to serve Just (in the same way) as Jesus does and did. AlL who have the SPIRIT of the FATHER (IN) them think alike and are all “ONE” in unity, brought about by the SPIRIT effectual working of the Spirit of the LIVING GOD. While there is order in the Kingdom of GOD it still does not divide the SPIRIT which is (IN) all who Have (IT)> They are of the “SAME” SPIRIT> IMOQuote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,15:39) Andrew Quote so I'm going to remain a trinitarian; I never was a trinitarian and yet I was born in a catholic environment ,but i never pick up what I could not read and understand clearly into the scriptures,I would advice you to do the same ,it is your soul you dealing for ,this is all we all have ,and only the truth of God can save it ,so in Christ name INVESTIGATE THIS LIE,
Hi terraricca,growing up in the Roman church I never read the Bible and therefore blindly accepted what I was taught but always felt like a rebel not being able to ascribe or live up to their rules.
It wasnt until I had a conversion experience that I became interested in God or the Bible at all.In fact religion was my worst subject when I went to catholic school.I got Ds
When I first started reading the bible on my own I remember questions arising in my mind about the trinity doctrine but didnt pursue the questions very far upon seeing the complex nature and wanting to avoid confusion.So again in a sense you might say I just accepted the doctrine.
Until recently the only non-trinitarian doctrines I encountered were from JWs and UPC both of which rubbed me wrong partly based on the way they approach the subject with their exclusive attitudes mixed with other doctrines which I view as false.
In my investigations thus far I understand why the council of Nicea decided upon the trinity doctrine to protect the divinity of Christ and I see how also this led to theotokos and the error of the cult of Mary.
While the term trinity is never used in the Bible,we all as Christians regardless of what branch we consider ourselves,all believe in Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.Whether you call this union trinity or not God is presented to us in the Bible in this way.
Without the Son we cant have the Father Jn14:6,without the Father we cant have the Son Jn3:16,and without the Spirit we cant have eitherJn3:3-8
As I stated in an earlier post what lead me to a study on this doctrine and eventually to this site was my discussion/argument on another site with those who say non-trinitarians are not or cannot be saved.My argument with them was that believing Jesus Christ is the son of the living God Matt16:13-18 is the requirement and not the trinity doctrine.I explained that this doctrine was developed over time and that the early church fathers before Nicea didnt teach it like it was finally decided upon later.Of course most got angry,and basically called me a liar and a heretic.To them denying the trinity is the same as denying the divinity of Christ,which I understand why they think that way.I used to be just like them too on account of Jws, and Mormons.But they would hardly let me even explain myself or hear me;it was a live chat room with mic and text.
I also defended my position from mere experience in knowing some from the UPC who hold the Jesus only or a modalistic doctrine.In knowing some of these people I would consider them real Christians and the ones I've known dont consider all trinitarians as damned even though their church might believe that.
It might be argued that the trinity doctrine was influenced by Greek,Egyptian,or other philosophies,but it can also be argued by unbelievers that the Logos and the whole of the gospel narratives were borrowed,and influenced by pagan myths and ideas.
Though doctrine is important,our mere human intellectual understanding of the divine nature is of far less importance than our showing/exhibiting that divine nature.1Cor13:1-2,Gal 5:18-22Quote (Ed J @ July 10 2012,15:41) Hi Andrew, welcome to H-net! Did you get all 20 questions right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the welcome! But what are the 20 questions? I guess I missed seeing that somewhere.Tbh I don't see that Jesus,Paul or anywhere in scripture explicitly teaches the trinity doctrine as expressed in the Nicene creed as the author on the homepage points out so I don't see it as a definite necessity for Christianity but at the same time I won't say the doctrine is apostasy,heresy or blasphemy.
I don't say this in response to you Ed but as an addendum to my previous comments.Hope you understand and don't mind.
Love in Christ to all!AndrewAD………..You seem to understand about the false teaching of the Doctrine of the Trinity That is a BIG Plus Brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Quote (AndrewAD @ July 14 2012,10:03) Hi terraricca,growing up in the Roman church I never read the Bible and therefore blindly accepted what I was taught………….. When I first started reading the bible on my own I remember questions arising in my mind about the trinity doctrine but didnt pursue the questions very far upon seeing the complex nature and wanting to avoid confusion.So again in a sense you might say I just accepted the doctrine.
Don't feel bad, Andrew. This is how the majority of Trinitarians become Trinitarians – by blindly accepting what they are taught. They start off as kids asking how the Son of God can also be God, and then eventually just accept the absurd because everybody else in the church seems to accept it.And you've related your chat room experience – how those who ask simple questions about this doctrine of confusion are met with serious verbal abuse. I was banned from a site for questioning the Trinity Doctrine.
I suggest you obey the words of your Lord Jesus and accept the Kingdom of God like a child. Try to remember back when you were a child – did it make sense to you that Jesus was the very God he was the Son of back then? Well guess what, even as an adult, it still makes no sense and never will. So you will do well to ignore all the twistings these people who believe this nonsense do to the scriptures, and stick with the simple basics:
1. For us, there is but ONE God………..THE FATHER.
2. For us, there is but ONE Lord that the Father appointed over us………….. His SERVANT Jesus Christ.
One is the only true God, who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them (including the firstborn of all creation, Jesus), and the other is the Son, Lamb, Priest, Servant, and Anointed One OF that first One. Jesus is not said to sit at the right hand of “the Father”, but at the right hand of “GOD”. He who sits at the right hand OF God cannot BE the God at whose right hand he sits.
Finally, I urge you to also obey these other words of the one you call your Lord:
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”peace,
mikeHey thanks Gene and Mike,and since thinking and praying on these things I think I'm really starting to see Jesus in a better light as to how He lived as a human in total reliance on God through the Spirit as we're to live now.
And when I started to feel confused about the doctrine and even a sense of fear,it was that scripture that you related Mike that came to me Matt 18:3 Except you be converted and become as little children,and Jn17:3 And this is life eternal,to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.It seems God is comforting me with these words and is calling me to be more of a simple bible believer and follower of Christ.Also that verse you quote ICor8:6 has really struck a chord with me.
I remember one time many years ago I had some JW's over for a study,I was still fairly new in the bible.They were trying to show me how Jesus was not God,I was trying to show them how He is.I was trying to show them the pre-trib rapture while they were showing whatever their eschatology is.When they finally left I felt so confused and realized then that I couldn't prove most of my points while they didn't convince me any either.It was just total futility and frustration and I never wanted them back.
Thank God,though years later, I started to see the falsity and scripture twisting of dispensationalism,which at that time I didn't even know thats what it was and I thank God for the truths He's still leading me to realize,and exposing of error.
Talking about being a child confused about the trinity I have a daughter who's a teenager now but I dusted off her Bible that was given her as an infant the other day and she had written inside the front cover”I love you my Lord Jesus Christ Or God”
I started laughing and still think it's so cute and funny because you can just see the confusion in the word “or” because it doesn't seem right to say and because Jesus is God.I have no idea when she wrote it but am so happy she did in the sense that she does have a heart for God which at that age I certainly didn't.I just pray she'll stay away from the things I did and we can talk about these things someday.
Gods peace and blessing through our Lord Jesus…….AndrewQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2012,02:52) Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,06:20) Gene,
It depends on the context. I see two on the highest throne and the rest surrounding the throne. All with the Spirit are a unity of sorts but not all are in unity as the supreme authority. I believe that the Father and the Son are in unity as our supreme authority. Do you believe that you will be a member of those in supreme authority or a member under those in supreme authority?
Lightenup……………..I believe i will come beside Jesus in the Household of GOD as a “JOINT” Heir of the Kingdom of GOD, There is only “ONE” God of Me and Jesus Both. He is the one we all need to serve Just (in the same way) as Jesus does and did. AlL who have the SPIRIT of the FATHER (IN) them think alike and are all “ONE” in unity, brought about by the SPIRIT effectual working of the Spirit of the LIVING GOD. While there is order in the Kingdom of GOD it still does not divide the SPIRIT which is (IN) all who Have (IT)> They are of the “SAME” SPIRIT> IMO
Gene b.And how does one serve God?
wakeup.
Quote (AndrewAD @ July 14 2012,14:38) I have no idea when she wrote it but am so happy she did in the sense that she does have a heart for God which at that age I certainly didn't.I just pray she'll stay away from the things I did and we can talk about these things someday.
Gods peace and blessing through our Lord Jesus…….Andrew
I am also happy about this, Andrew. Like you, I didn't have a heart for God at an early age, and lived a life that would put some of the the worse sinners in the Bible to shame.Your daughter's words, “my Lord Jesus Christ OR God” are precious, and at the same time very sad. Those words depict the beginning of the mental struggle between what our God-given common sense tells us, and what those “experts” at the church tell us. It seems, from the sheer volume of Christians who believe Jesus is the God he is the Son of, the “experts” at the church usually win.
I'm glad you have decided to look into the matter yourself, Andrew. May the Spirit of God guide you on your journey. And, almost as importantly, may you continue to test the spirit that is guiding you against the written words of God. God's Spirit will never contradict what God has inspired to be written down in scripture.
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