Conception

[Jodi]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 15 2008,23:52)

Hi Sis Jodi, Lot of information on 'son of God'. But God declares him as His beloved son only at Jordan on his Baptism and after receiving the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Can we not assume that Jesus became Messiah or Son of God literally at Jordan ? Yes I agree with you on Jesus being called as son of God at his birth by angels. But I believe God's relationship with Jesus as Father is not in flesh and blood but in Spirit and by filling him with His Spirit without measure(fully). Hope you will appreciate these lines Thanks and love to you Adam

Hello brother,

Good to speak with you! I agree with you sort of I guess. I see Jesus as the son of God from his birth, in the sense that God foreknew his sinlessness, however the beginning of him showing himself to the world as the Son of God came at the Jordan, when he was endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born!  If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed!

Hi not3,
Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family?

[NickHassan]

Hi Gm and mk,
Then again the monogenes son who was sent into the world appears in the OT.,
Ps2
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

[NickHassan]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 16 2008,18:55)

Mandy How about this? Rom 1:4And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: It says his resurrection was when he was declared Son of God. declared = G3724 ὁρίζω horizō hor-id'-zo From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain. What is flesh is flesh – what is spirit is spirit

Hi mk,
The coming Son of God was prophesied in Psalm 2
That is why the Jewish authorities questioned him about it

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
You always refer these prophetic verses as reality in OT about our Messiah.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
The Son is shown as ruler in Ps 2 so folk wondered if the roman domination was going to be overthrown by him, a son of David.

[Jodi]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 15 2008,23:55)

Mandy How about this? Rom 1:4And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: It says his resurrection was when he was declared Son of God. declared = G3724 ὁρίζω horizō hor-id'-zo From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain. What is flesh is flesh – what is spirit is spirit

Hi Meerkat, you cannot deny a whole bunch of scriptures of which call Jesus the Son of God before his resurrection.

I think you are viewing Romans 1:4 in the wrong light sister.

Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

What I think verse 4 is trying to get at is that it is by the resurrection of Jesus that we know for sure that Jesus was truly the Son of God. It is by his resurrection from the dead that Jesus can be truly declared unto man that he is Son of God. Paul was stating that THIS IS OUR PROOF!

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
I agree,
As Peter was explaining in Acts 2 he was the one predicted whom the grave could not hold, he was the expected prophet [acts3].

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born!  If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family?

Hi Nick,

A helpless baby is a helpless baby.

However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth? That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid.

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born! If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family? Hi Nick, A helpless baby is a helpless baby. However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth? That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid.

Good Morning Mandy,

Since when do you think that scripture claims a pre-existent Jesus??

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 16 2008,18:05)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 15 2008,22:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,15:05) Hi mk, If the first Adam was not why must the second Adam be? I'm going to sound like a broken record again, but feel it's important to share for Meerkat's consideration. Adam will need to be adopted (along with the rest of us) into his sonship with God. Jesus belonged at birth. Hmmmm You can say that Jesus belonged as the son of God from his birth, but it is ONLY because of the predestination of which God had for him from the beginning, which WAS TO CREATE A RIGHTEOUS HUMAN BEING, (an example for the rest of mankind to follow)! NOT because of him having some sort of different genetics as we do, and certainly not because he was part God part human.

Again, predestination of men doesn't have a whole lot to do with the fact that when Jesus was born…..he was God's ONLY Son. Much like when your daughter's were born…..they were your daughter's. Whether or not they were predestined to be your daughter's, makes little difference in the fact that they are indeed related to you. Their relativeness could even be proven by a blood test!

Jesus' relativeness was perhaps “proven”, as you say, by his resurrection.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 17 2008,02:27)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born!  If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family? Hi Nick, A helpless baby is a helpless baby. However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth?  That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid.   Good Morning Mandy, Since when do you think that scripture claims a pre-existent Jesus??

Good morning!

I don't – Nick does.

[Not3in1]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 16 2008,18:55)

Mandy How about this? Rom 1:4And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: It says his resurrection was when he was declared Son of God. declared = G3724 ὁρίζω horizō hor-id'-zo From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain. What is flesh is flesh – what is spirit is spirit

Good morning, Meerkat.

What is flesh is flesh, true. What is spirit is spirit, true. However, as a human being we are both.

I believe that the scripture in Romans is merely pointing out that after the resurrection……Jesus had POWER!

“….and declared to be the Son of God with power…”

Prior to his death, Jesus let us know that he could do nothing without the Father. After his death (which accomplished a gazillion things), one of those things is that Jesus is in charge now. He will eventually turn everything *back over* to the Father, but for now, if you see Jesus, salute Him!

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 17 2008,02:31)

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 17 2008,02:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born!  If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family? Hi Nick, A helpless baby is a helpless baby. However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth?  That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid.   Good Morning Mandy, Since when do you think that scripture claims a pre-existent Jesus?? Good morning! I don't – Nick does.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5

1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.

Christ is GOD's Word aka GOD's Mouthpiece…

Well keeping that in mind..while considering the above scripture…sounds like Christ pre-existed to me…

The scripture says that “christ accompanied them”

How much more blatant can you get…

We have to stop looking at things through “preterist” eyes…

Its seems like people bring out the “preterist” goggles anytime something doesn't align with what they want to believe..

(not directed at anyone in particular )

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 17 2008,02:37)

The scripture says that “christ accompanied them” How much more blatant can you get…

I won't do this homework for you…..but check out the various translations on this bit of scripture. You'll be amazed at what you find.

Have a good one, DK!

[GeneBalthrop]

DK………Jesus said GOD is the ROCK that was going to build the church, GOD is Spirit as we Know, the word Christ does not mean Jesus all the time it means the Anointing or Spirit of GOD. That was the rock following the children in the wilderness it was the (Christos) or anointing, not the person Jesus as Trinitarians and preexistences want you to believe. In fact there are other place where the word Christos is used by Paul and it is not referring to Jesus at all, this has caused i believe confusion in the text in some places.

love and peace to you and yours…………………gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 17 2008,02:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 17 2008,02:31) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 17 2008,02:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born!  If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family? Hi Nick, A helpless baby is a helpless baby. However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth?  That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid.   Good Morning Mandy, Since when do you think that scripture claims a pre-existent Jesus?? Good morning! I don't – Nick does. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. Christ is GOD's Word aka GOD's Mouthpiece… Well keeping that in mind..while considering the above scripture…sounds like Christ pre-existed to me… The scripture says that “christ accompanied them” How much more blatant can you get… We have to stop looking at things through “preterist” eyes… Its seems like people bring out the “preterist” goggles anytime something doesn't align with what they want to believe.. (not directed at anyone in particular )

Hi DK,
Spirit of Christ.
“The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy”[Rev19]

[meerkat]

Jodi,

Good info there on the Son of God — and yes, the seed of the woman …………….

I am wondering about parallels between between Genesis and Revelation Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered
Rev 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Mic 4:9Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Mic 4:10Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Mic 5:1Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

Mic 5:2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
Mic 5:3Therefore will he give them up, until the time [that] she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

and also Micah and the daughter of zion

I think the woman is a term for Gods chosen people – who while starting out found to be impure are made pure – With Gods chosen people starts out physical, then spiritual.

Just an aside here – What are your thoughts on one of the meanings of woman in the hebrew H802
נשׁים אשּׁה
'ishshâh nâshîym
ish-shaw', naw-sheem'
The first form is the feminine of H376 or H582; the second form is an irregular plural; a woman (used in the same wide sense as H582).: – [adulter]ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.

I think it is relevant to the whole scheme of 1st natural -then spiritual, impure being refined, Eve the first woman found to be unfaithful leading her husband astray,

I am wondering if the seed of the woman is more generic for national Israel that travails.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 17 2008,02:43)

Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 17 2008,02:37) The scripture says that “christ accompanied them” How much more blatant can you get… I won't do this homework for you…..but check out the various translations on this bit of scripture.  You'll be amazed at what you find. Have a good one, DK!

already turned in that assigment

The translations vary little between themselves..just a few differences in prepositions…not anything that would change the meaning of the text…

and Gene…

Christ= anointed..therefore generally they can be used interchangeably…

But I have to say I disagree with you here..its obvious that “the angel of GOD” mentioned in the OT…you know the one that ministered and delivered pronouncements in GOD's name was in fact on occasion “the rock” Christ

To come to any other conclusion requires the putting on of our “preterist glasses”

[Jodi]

Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 16 2008,07:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 17 2008,02:31) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 17 2008,02:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,19:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:47) Hi Jodi, Was Jesus sort of a perfect godman. Can we follow such a perfect one with a head start? It would be easier to follow an overcomer in God's anointing This caught my eye – You're not being completely honest here about the Jesus you serve, Nick. Your boy had a head start alright….he was in heaven before he was born! If that isn't a head start, what would you call that? OK, now off to bed! Hi not3, Does any infant in a manger have much going for him except by the love of his family? Hi Nick, A helpless baby is a helpless baby. However, a helpless baby who grows to learn that he has existed before his birth? That's another episode in the Star Trek series, I'm afraid. Good Morning Mandy, Since when do you think that scripture claims a pre-existent Jesus?? Good morning! I don't – Nick does. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. Christ is GOD's Word aka GOD's Mouthpiece… Well keeping that in mind..while considering the above scripture…sounds like Christ pre-existed to me… The scripture says that “christ accompanied them” How much more blatant can you get… We have to stop looking at things through “preterist” eyes… Its seems like people bring out the “preterist” goggles anytime something doesn't align with what they want to believe.. (not directed at anyone in particular )

Good Morning DK,

If you keep reading through chapter 15, and see what the message is as a whole, I believe that you are incorrect to say that this shows Christ's pre-existence.

First and foremost CHRIST IS the HUMAN being born of Mary who died on the cross, thus being the glory of God. The Messiah was prophesied TO COME. Jesus is Messiah because he paid for our sins THROUGH BEING A RIGHTEOUS HUMAN BEING and dying as such when he did not deserve to. Jesus IS not the Christ according to being a pre-existent spiritual being.

All of God's purpose FROM the beginning is through the man Jesus who remained righteous in order to pay for our sins, NOT your supposed pre-existent son of God who you and others believe that he was some sort of an assistant along with the angels having God's powers. Man was in need of a Messiah a human savior not a pre-existent mouth piece for God, doing something that God Himself could do as well what He had appointed for His spiritual messengers to do!

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did–and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did–and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did–and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

23 “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.” 27 If some unbeliever i
nvites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake– 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God– 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

The Israelites drank of the glory of God, which was of His plan. God provided water for them from the rock in order to allow them to survive. That life line of water, was for the Purpose of Christ. Some Israelites however were killed because even with all the signs and wonders they still did not follow God, but went after idols. God saved the Israelites from captivity drug them through the wilderness to teach them, and bring them into the promised land so that eventually God's promise to Abraham could transpire, and that David would be born creating the seed for the COMING Christ.

The Israelites were of the rock of Christ because it is through God's Will unto them that they would bear the Messiah, this would not have occurred if they ALL would have died in the dessert without water from the rock.

Are you following what I am saying here D.k.? Maybe we should move this to the pre-existent thread.

The main message is that as God provided for the Israelites water, He has provided for us the cup of the blood of Christ. We are warned to learn from those Israelites who died in the wilderness because they used God's life lines to live and turn to idolatry and evil works. We should make sure that we eat and drink to the glory of God, and do so in such a way that is good unto our brother.

Not only do I not see scriptural evidence for a pre-existent Christ, but I see no need or purpose for one.

Our Messiah, our savior was a human being. God did not need a mouth piece and it makes no sense to then turn the mouth piece into a baby.

4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

There is greater meaning to this scripture other then God had a Spirit Son use His powers for Him to make water come forth out of a rock.

Without the Plan of a human savior coming forth from the blood of the Israelites, there would have been no need to save the Israelites, therefore the rock and the water from it, the food, the cloud, all that stuff, was done according to the purpose IN the coming Messiah.

[Author]

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