Conception

This topic contains 1,465 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 8 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #12786
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:41)

    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)


    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    Hi RR,
    Why also not
    “Wonderful” ??
    “Counsellor” ??

    #12787
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,09:32)
    Hi RR,
    It could mean that.

    But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
    Do you agree?


    No I don't agree.

    Abraham was called their father even by YHWH himself:

    Quote
    Genesis 26:24  And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham’s sake.”

    'Father and Teacher' are used repeatedly throughout both the old and new testaments.

    #12788
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,09:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,09:32)
    Hi RR,
    It could mean that.

    But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
    Do you agree?


    No I don't agree.

    Abraham was called their father even by YHWH himself:

    Quote
    Genesis 26:24  And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham’s sake.”

    'Father and Teacher' are used repeatedly throughout both the old and new testaments.


    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.

    #12789
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?

    #12790
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to. I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?

    #12791
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:52)
    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?


    Nick,

    I fail to see what my ancestory has got to do with this – always have to make it personal in some way don't you Nick. Why can't we just discuss scripture?

    It is well documented that the Jews kept records of lineage.  You could only be a priest if you were from the Tribe of Levi.  You can only be the Messiah if you are from the House of David.  This is why they kept such good records.

    Quote
    Luke 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin (4773) Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. (AV)

    Luke 1:36  And behold, your kinswoman (4773) Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. (RSV)

    Quote
    4773 suggenhv suggenes soong-ghen-ace’
    from 4862 and 1085; TDNT-7:736,1097; adj
    AV-kinsman 7, cousin 2, kinsfolk 2, kin 1; 12
    1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

    2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

    #12794
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,10:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to.  I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?


    Hi RR,
    Christ only called God Father.

    It is not a matter of who were teachers. Even Timothy speaks of those of the NT who are teachers. But they are servant teachers. They are under Christ.

    Gamaliel was a teacher of the Law. Paul had sat at his feet and had learned from him. But he no longer did. By the Spirit of Christ in him he could teach Gamaliel.

    The disciples of the NT were not advised to seek him out as a guide. Now they had Christ. Weak human OT teachers are far less than the Master.

    They had the inner teacher of the Holy Spirit.

    No man can any longer usurp the role God wants in our lives.

    #12795
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,11:23)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:52)
    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?


    Nick,

    I fail to see what my ancestory has got to do with this – always have to make it personal in some way don't you Nick. Why can't we just discuss scripture?

    It is well documented that the Jews kept records of lineage.  You could only be a priest if you were from the Tribe of Levi.  You can only be the Messiah if you are from the House of David.  This is why they kept such good records.

    Quote
    Luke 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin (4773) Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. (AV)

    Luke 1:36  And behold, your kinswoman (4773) Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. (RSV)

    Quote
    4773 suggenhv suggenes soong-ghen-ace’
    from 4862 and 1085; TDNT-7:736,1097; adj
    AV-kinsman 7, cousin 2, kinsfolk 2, kin 1; 12
    1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

    2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman


    Hi RR,
    So it means a relative of some kind, including possibly a cousin, but scripture does not specify how close that relationship is.
    I am sure I have relations who do not know me and whom I have never heard of.

    #12798
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,20:53)
    Hi RR,
    So it means a relative of some kind, including possibly a cousin, but scripture does not specify how close that relationship is.
    I am sure I have relations who do not know me and whom I have never heard of.


    Why would Mary leave so quickly and stay with Elizabeth for three months if she was a relative she didn't even know?

    #12799
     david 
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    Quote
    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)

    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    I'm confused. Doesn't this scripture use the name Immanuel and Jesus?

    RR, what do you mean?

    #12806
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,20:50)

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,10:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to.  I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?


    Hi RR,
    Christ only called God Father.

    It is not a matter of who were teachers. Even Timothy speaks of those of the NT who are teachers. But they are servant teachers. They are under Christ.

    Gamaliel was a teacher of the Law. Paul had sat at his feet and had learned from him. But he no longer did. By the Spirit of Christ in him he could teach Gamaliel.

    The disciples of the NT were not advised to seek him out as a guide. Now they had Christ. Weak human OT teachers are far less than the Master.

    They had the inner teacher of the Holy Spirit.

    No man can any longer usurp the role God wants in our lives.


    Yahshua had not started his ministry at this time.  The Holy Spirit had not been sent at this time.

    The verse I quoted was when he was 12.

    I disagree with you.

    #12809
     Woutlaw 
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    Quote (david @ April 17 2006,01:35)

    Quote
    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)

    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    I'm confused.  Doesn't this scripture use the name Immanuel and Jesus?

    RR, what do you mean?


    Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 says that the child shall be called Emmanuel, which literaly means God with us.

    Greek word for name=
    3686 onoma on'-om-ah from a presumed derivative of the base of 1097 (compare 3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):–called, (+ sur-)name(-d). see GREEK for 1097 see GREEK for 3685

    Isaiah 9:6 says that the child shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Hebrew word for name=
    8034 shem shame a primitive word (perhaps rather from 7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare 8064); an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character:–+ base, (in-)fame(-ous), named(-d), renown, report. see HEBREW for 07760 see HEBREW for 08064

    No where in scripture was Jesus literally called Emmanuel, or Mighty God, or Everlasting Father, or Wonderful Counsellor. Why? because when these scriptures talk about his “Name”, it's not literal. I believe it's talking about his authority. Does Jesus have the authority of God his Father? yes siree he does. All things have been entrusted to the Son.

    #12810
     malcolm ferris 
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    A name represents a person, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38. That is not to say that the Holy Spirit and the Father are 2 different people, or that the Son is the Father. A firstborn son often bears the same name as his father.
    A name represents a person, to act in the name of someone is to act as an ambassador or representative or on behalf of that person. For Jesus to bear the name of Emmanuel “God with us” then God would have to be IN Christ, which the scripture bears testimony of.

    #12814
     Woutlaw 
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    A name represents a person, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38?

    Malcolm, If you're trying to make a connection between Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38 I have a serious disagreement with you. Oneness people do this to try to prove that Jesus is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 is another example of tampering of scripture, along with 1 John 5:7.

    There is a lot of documentation on the web that address this issue. But I don't need to use that documentation to prove that Matthew 28:19 has been altered.

    In Matthew 28:18, Jesus said,

    All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth .

    I believe that all authority has indeed been given to the Son. If the Son has all authority, then why in the world would we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

    If the Son has all authority, then to baptize in his name would suffice.

    #12821
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Malcolm and Woutlaw,
    Perhaps, Malcolm, you are implying the true expression of Matt 28.19
    “….baptising them in my name…”
    in which case there is no conflict.

    Acts 4.12
    “There is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved”

    #12828
     Ramblinrose 
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    The following article sheds light on how to better understand Isaiah 9.6

    Isaiah 9:6

    #12829
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 18 2006,09:20)
    The following article sheds light on how to better understand Isaiah 9.6

    Isaiah 9:6


    Hi RR,
    So your expert in the article says that “eternal” in Is 9.6 instead should read “Age”
    NASB
    5703 “ad” {from 5710a “adah” to pass on advance}
    =perpetuity
    -continually [1] Eternal[1] ever[15] forever[26] forever*[1] forevermore*[2] from of old [1]perpetual[[1]to all[1]

    hmmm.

    #12830
     Ramblinrose 
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    I do not have a problem with the writer of the article using 'age' as I understand the verse as follows:

    Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (mighty god-like one), Everlasting Father (Father of Eternity), Prince of Peace.  (Note:  brackets mine)

    Youngs Literal Translations actually translates as follows:
    For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

    As the article shows, being called the father of something is because you were the first.  Yahshua is the first person to receive everlasting life he is therefore:

    Father of Eternity = Father of the Age to come.

    05703 de ‘ad ad
    from 05710; TWOT-1565a; n m
    AV-ever 41, everlasting 2, end 1, eternity 1, ever + 05769 1, evermore 1, old 1, perpetually 1; 49
    1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
    1a) ancient (of past time)
    1b) for ever (of future time)
    1b1) of continuous existence
    1c) for ever (of God’s existence)

    #12831
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    That makes sense. Thank you.

    #12843
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    It may be helpful to look deeper.
    Matt 1.20
    “..Joseph,son of David,do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife;for the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..”
    The word translated as “conceived” in this passage[1080 gennao] has many meanings, by far the commonest being “born”. But it also can mean “begotten”. This is the only instance where it is translated “conceived” in NASB. Should it have been? Surely “born” is inappropriate but “begotten” may have been a better choice?

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