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Quote (Stu @ July 22 2012,19:15) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 22 2012,20:22) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2012,05:18) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 20 2012,21:21) You judge from human standards giving no thought to the impact that disobedience of the law brings to society. You believe that God hates those who are killed, but I believe it can best be understood as a cancer, infection, or injury where one has to choose between removal of a valued portion of their body to save the whole. This was not something God desired any more than the one who chooses amputation or removal of organ(s), it is for the greater good.
I guess god just messed up creation, allowing to happen things it didn't want to happen.Okay… and if He hadn't allowed it after giving man dominion, you would of been fine with that
What do you mean by dominion? Come to think of it, what do you mean by “god”?dominion – complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth
“god” – We've discussed this before but here is what I mean by who is God and God
Quote Quote Yes we were free to choose, however we are also free to choose to not love Him but then our life will be judged on its own merit.
OK, so tell me whose life would be judged to have merit that rejected this “love” option. Then tell me it is any kind of choice at all. It isn’t of course, it is the “choice” given by the tyrant. Love the dictator or die. Even if you do choose love, it is love under the shadow of compulsory fear, so it is cannot be said to be freely given. This nasty religion is a mockery of the human condition. It deserves the highest contempt.Examples of this “contemptible” behavior:
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Sounds like a “tyrant” to me.
Quote Quote The purpose of the Resurrection is to “balance the books” so that those judged on their own merit receive an appropriate response; those judged by a life defined by love, entrance into the Kingdom of heaven, those who lacked love, punishment for what they did in this life and then they perish from existence.
Just as well that is all a big fantasy story for the gullible. The universe just isn’t like that, and that is what makes it beautiful.
A universe with your god in it would be unspeakably ugly.It probably is distasteful to one who has dedicated his life to striking out at this “non-existent” God
Quote Quote Why would anyone NOT worship Him?? He is fair to all despite what religious traditions teaches, the “punishment fits the crime”.
Do you worship High Court judges too? If not, why not?Stuart
Why is there more than 1 Supreme Court Judge? Because they are not the one “who judges justly” knowing all things including intents of the heart.
Wm
Quote (Stu @ July 22 2012,20:34) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 22 2012,23:07) Stu,
Your “rants” are put forth in a manner to draw an emotional response from those you're attacking, whats the matter can't you win with a discussion around the vailidity of the topic?
Tell me whose life would be thought of as meritorious in this system you describe if that person rejected this “loving god” arrangement (you did describe it as a possibility, but you didn't answer my question – instead you bizarrely claim I am ranting – it is not me who is ranting).Rant – pompous or pretentious talk or writing
Quote
Secondly, since your reason for worshipping your Imaginary Friend seems to be the justice you allege it dispenses (not sure where that leaves Uzzah, who was murdered by god when he was only trying to help), I wonder if you worship anything or anyone that dispenses justice. You didn't answer that either.If you think I'm attempting to elicit an emotional response, what do you think you are doing?
Do you have any answers to my questions? They are couched in pretty much the same terms as your statements.
Stuart
Questions answered, opinions given, others will have to decide between us.Wm
Quote (Ed J @ July 24 2012,04:36) But my question remains: where did the energy to create the universe come from?
The answer remains the same: the same place “God” came from.Why do you refuse to accept it? If you, like most Christians, believe that “God” simply exists, with no beginning, then please explain why the universe, (i.e. all of the matter and energy in existence), can not have that quality.
(Note: For reference, you should be aware of the logical fallacy of special pleading. I am almost certain that you are about to demonstrate it.)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 24 2012,14:54) Quote (Ed J @ July 24 2012,04:36) But my question remains: where did the energy to create the universe come from?
The answer remains the same: the same place “God” came from.Why do you refuse to accept it? If you, like most Christians, believe that “God” simply exists, with no beginning, then please explain why the universe, (i.e. all of the matter and energy in existence), can not have that quality.
(Note: For reference, you should be aware of the logical fallacy of special pleading. I am almost certain that you are about to demonstrate it.)
Hi WIT,Simple – because Science is certain that the universe had a beginning. now please answer my question.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI think the problem is…christians Are Half of What is suggested by the word of GOD.
I mean, there are Graves opening, an many fantastic things that would widen the way of interest for many on earth. why do many christians behave offended about reincarnation. an. while a woman, rise a up a Samauel from the grave. in there own book. of the greatest power….they reject there biggest asset, as if faithless.
NOTHING WILL COME TO lIFE FOR THE bLIND…as LIFE WILL COME AN GO WITHER THE BLIND SEE TO SEE, they only make a difference to themselves …Quote (Ed J @ July 23 2012,23:15) Hi Stuart, My question to you is: where did the energy to create the universe come from?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, where did all the cars that made the Ford Motor Company come from?Stuart
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 24 2012,12:19) Quote (Stu @ July 22 2012,19:15) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 22 2012,20:22) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2012,05:18) seekingtruth,July wrote:You judge from human standards giving no thought to the impact that disobedience of the law brings to society. You believe that God hates those who are killed, but I believe it can best be understood as a cancer, infection, or injury where one has to choose between removal of a valued portion of their body to save the whole. This was not something God desired any more than the one who chooses amputation or removal of organ(s), it is for the greater good.
I guess god just messed up creation, allowing to happen things it didn't want to happen.Okay… and if He hadn't allowed it after giving man dominion, you would of been fine with that
Stu: What do you mean by dominion? Come to think of it, what do you mean by “god”?Quote dominion – complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth
Are you claiming to have “complete authority” over birds? What about microorganisms? I think you will find that bacteria have pretty much complete authority over you. But this is all a nonsense religious platitude. You are just shifting the claim from one undefined term to another. You start with “dominion” then you shift to “authority”. It still means absolutely nothing.Quote “god” – We've discussed this before but here is what I mean by who is God and God
You admitted on one of those occasions that I could take what you wrote as “fantasy claptrap”. So I am really none the wiser as to what you mean by ‘god’. It seems pretty clear to me that the term represents your most tedious navel-gazing and hopeless castles in the air.Stu: OK, so tell me whose life would be judged to have merit that rejected this “love” option. Then tell me it is any kind of choice at all. It isn’t of course, it is the “choice” given by the tyrant. Love the dictator or die. Even if you do choose love, it is love under the shadow of compulsory fear, so it is cannot be said to be freely given. This nasty religion is a mockery of the human condition. It deserves the highest contempt.
Quote Examples of this “contemptible” behavior:
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Sounds like a “tyrant” to me.
You dodged my question. What happens if you choose not to love the deity? Is it really a choice when you are also expected to fear it? You know full well there is scripture that says you will be punished if you do not love this deity, and you must fear it too. That is tyranny. It is indeed a tyrant – one of the worst ever invented by humans.Quote It probably is distasteful to one who has dedicated his life to striking out at this “non-existent” God
You have missed the point again. There is clearly no such thing as the god you worship. The universe would be ugly if your fantasy story was really true. Christianity holds no beauty, it is the petty set of rituals held by a particular tiny sect that grew large through political patronage (of Constantine specifically). It is still a small-minded way to think.What is distasteful is the alleged attitude of this fictional character to the beings that were allegedly created by it. It is sadistic and violent towards humans. Of course we are not talking about anything that actually exists, it is just the fears and dreams of ignorant ancient Jews that you keep alive.
Quote Why is there more than 1 Supreme Court Judge? Because they are not the one “who judges justly” knowing all things including intents of the heart.
So, once again, your definition of god leaves open the possibility that the Chief Justice is god, for that is one who MIGHT have the capacity to know all intents.Again, you dodge the question. Your argument for worshiping this particular god, of all the gods that humans have invented, was that it dispenses justice. So I guess you must have other reasons too. Fear perhaps. But what is the ethical argument for worshiping a deity that supposedly drowned all humans and land animals in one go, and killed Uzzah for trying to help? If this religion is not something you have thought about from an ethical standpoint, perhaps it would be worthwhile stopping to consider just how immoral it might be.
Stu: Tell me whose life would be thought of as meritorious in this system you describe if that person rejected this “loving god” arrangement (you did describe it as a possibility, but you didn't answer my question – instead you bizarrely claim I am ranting – it is not me who is ranting).
Quote Rant – pompous or pretentious talk or writing
It isn’t me making wild claims about Imaginary Friends that I can’t demonstrate are there. Any pomp or pretense I create is pretty mild compared to that.Do you have an answer to my question?
Quote Questions answered, opinions given, others will have to decide between us.
I’d be quite keen to actually see you answer a question. You seem to dodge most of them.Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ July 24 2012,10:45)
Hi WIT,Simple – because Science is certain that the universe had a beginning. now please answer my question.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The big bang theory suggests that the universe as we know it had a beginning. It says nothing about the nature and composition of all the energy/matter outside of the time sequence that started with the initial expansion. You ask where the energy came from to which I respond, “It didn't 'come from' anywhere. It already existed in some form or another at the beginning.”In fact, as you point out, the science is quite clear on this issue: nothing was created in the Big Bang; the nature and the composition of what existed already was simply changed, and rather rapidly at that.
Do you understand that the Big Bang theory does not describe the creation of something from nothing; that it only describes the change of state of all energy/matter in our universe from one state to another? I suspect that you don't, because if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question that you did.
Quote Stu: What do you mean by dominion? Quote Wm: dominion – complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth Quote You start with “dominion” then you shift to “authority”.
How do you define words but with other words Yet you try to make it sound as if I did not answer your question so… once again can you not win on points but resort to misdirection to make it look like you've won.Wm
Another misdirection
Quote (Stu @ July 22 2012,19:15) You admitted on one of those occasions that I could take what you wrote as “fantasy claptrap”. Quote Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2012,20:45) What can I say stu, of all the doctrines of men that I would expect this postulation to clash with, atheists were at the very top of the list. And yes, I have allowed all this “fantasy claptrap” (scriptures to the rest of us) to more than distract me, my whole worldview & life are based on them. Wm
But more to the point you don't have answers to my criticisms.So am I to conclude therefore that you agree it can be characterised as claptrap, and quite possibly it makes no valid points about atheists or any other people with whom you “expect this postulation to clash”? And indeed it may make no valid points about the universe or our place in it. It might be literature and nothing more?
Stuart
Quote
Stu,
Do you not know the purpose of the quotation marks around “claptrap”?Perhaps it is nothing more than literature, and poorly written at that. But the rantings of one who hates everything I believe in will do little to dissuade me.
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2012,23:32) Quote (Ed J @ July 23 2012,23:15) Hi Stuart, My question to you is: where did the energy to create the universe come from?
God bless
Ed J
Ed, where did all the cars that made the Ford Motor Company come from?Stuart
Hi Stuart,From the resources that God created.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ July 25 2012,00:51) You ask where the energy came from to which I respond, (1)”It didn't 'come from' anywhere. (2)It already existed in some form or another at the beginning.” (3)In fact, as you point out, the science is quite clear on this issue: nothing was created in the Big Bang; (4)the nature and the composition of what existed already was simply changed, and rather rapidly at that.
(5)Do you understand that the Big Bang theory does not describe the creation of something from nothing; (6)that it only describes the change of state of all energy/matter in our universe from one state to another? (7)I suspect that you don't, (8)because if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question that you did.
Hi WIT,1) This is your first response as such.
2) This is pure conjecture – have any proof of your assertion here?3) Irrelevant
4) Where is your evidence of this assertion?5) Then the Big Bang theory is a big fat “ZERO”.
(meaning totally useless, with the exception of pointing to God's truth about the universe having a beginning)
6) What description?
7) Don't what?
8) Huh?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 24 2012,09:34) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 24 2012,08:37) Ed, Is that where your god came from?
Hi WIT,No, that's where the god of atheists (evolution) came from.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
With MB's and Edj's comments about all these existent Gods, how are they so positive they have the right one.
What is the deciding factor? A book, a teaching, a connection they feel with a god?
Since as the stories are told that each of these Gods have powers of some sort, that these Gods are not deceiving humanity to believe in them as they keep a tally sheet of some sort on which human worships them.
How in this age does a society determine that God is needed in their lives to be complete, what was missing in the first place?Quote (Ed J @ July 25 2012,04:47) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 25 2012,00:51) You ask where the energy came from to which I respond, (1)”It didn't 'come from' anywhere. (2)It already existed in some form or another at the beginning.” (3)In fact, as you point out, the science is quite clear on this issue: nothing was created in the Big Bang; (4)the nature and the composition of what existed already was simply changed, and rather rapidly at that.
(5)Do you understand that the Big Bang theory does not describe the creation of something from nothing; (6)that it only describes the change of state of all energy/matter in our universe from one state to another? (7)I suspect that you don't, (8)because if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question that you did.
Hi WIT,1) This is your first response as such.
2) This is pure conjecture – have any proof of your assertion here?3) Irrelevant
4) Where is your evidence of this assertion?5) Then the Big Bang theory is a big fat “ZERO”.
(meaning totally useless, with the exception of pointing to God's truth about the universe having a beginning)
6) What description?
7) Don't what?
8) Huh?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
1) No, it's your first time understanding my original response.2) From the Holy Wikipedia:
Quote According to the Big Bang theory, the Universe was once in an extremely hot and dense state which expanded rapidly. This rapid expansion caused the Universe to cool and resulted in its present continuously expanding state. The most recent measurements and observations are in agreement with a Big Bang that would have occurred approximately 13.75 billion years ago, which is thus considered the age of the Universe. 3) Actually, it's a restatement of #2 so it's as relevant as #2.
4) See my response to #2. (Hint: Click on the link to read up on the evidence collected by scientists thus far.)
5) It's no more unsatisfactory than the idea that your god magically made everything appear. In fact, it's infinitely better because a) it's a testable claim and b) there's actual evidence for it.
6) See my response to #2.
7) That you don't understand.
8) Exactly.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 25 2012,13:43) the Universe was once in an extremely hot and dense state which expanded rapidly.
Before thatHi WIT,
You remind me of evolutionists neglecting to consider how the first life got started.
The question remains: “where did the energy come from”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ July 25 2012,13:43) It's no more unsatisfactory than the idea that your god magically made everything appear. In fact, it's infinitely better because a) it's a testable claim and b) there's actual evidence for it.
Hi WIT,The response which you have given “IS” a non-answer;
what would make you believe it is satisfactory?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 25 2012,15:05) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 25 2012,13:43) the Universe was once in an extremely hot and dense state which expanded rapidly.
Before that
Hi Wit, I DIDN'T ask you…
(which would have been an answer this question)“In what state was the universe in just after it's creation?”
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (princess @ July 25 2012,11:59) Quote (Ed J @ July 24 2012,09:34) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 24 2012,08:37) Ed, Is that where your god came from?
Hi WIT,No, that's where the god of atheists (evolution) came from.
God bless
Ed J
With MB's and (1)Edj's comments about all these existent Gods, (2)how are they so positive they have the right one.
(3)What is the deciding factor? A book, a teaching, a connection they feel with a god?
(4)Since as the stories are told that each of these Gods have powers of some sort, that these Gods are not deceiving humanity to believe in them as they keep a tally sheet of some sort on which human worships them.
(5)How in this age does a society determine that God is needed in their lives to be complete, what was missing in the first place?
Hi Princess,1) What other gods?
2) Those who follow Satan are 'fools'.
3) The deciding factor about what? …truth?
4) What are you talking about?
5) What makes you think you decide?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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