What is your confession regarding Jesus

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September 12, 2013 at 10:34 pm#777101
DavidL
Participant
you seem to like these little word games – personally I find them rather pathetic..and grieving to God..
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so you try and twist my words the same way you twist the Scriptures..!!!
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Jesus Christ has over 200 names and titles in Scripture that reveal who He truly is..Son of God, Son of David..Son of Man are some that relate to His manifestation in the flesh, others that reveal His Divinity are Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14), Image of God: (2 Corinthians 4:4), Almighty (Revelation 1:8), Creator (John 1:3), Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), GOD (Isaiah 40:3)…
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Revelation 1:5-8 NIV – and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
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To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to Him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen
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“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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am I saying Jesus is Son of Himself…???
September 12, 2013 at 11:06 pm#777102
Admin
Keymaster
Brother, I am not twisting your words, nor scripture. I am showing what you are saying.

I CONFESS WITH MY MOUTH AND BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IS BOTH MY LORD AND *MY GOD*..!!

You said it. If Jesus is both LORD and Almighty GOD as you imply, and he is also the son of God, then he has to be the son of himself. This is the obvious conclusion that one arrives at from your view.

But look what our brother Paul says regarding this:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Paul clearly teaches that for us, (believers) there is one God, the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So why do you teach that there is one God the Father and Son, and one Lord, the Father and Son.

In your honest opinion, would I be better off believing Paul’s view on this or yours?
September 13, 2013 at 7:37 pm#777103
DavidL
Participant
Revelation 1:8 NIV (Jesus the Son of God speaking), “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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John 20:28 “And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.”
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Who is Jesus ? He is my Lord AND my God..
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Am I saying Jesus is the Son of Himself ? No, I’m simply confessing that, according to the revelation of Scripture, Jesus is God the Son..
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(sorry if that sounds awfully like the dreaded Trinity doctrine you so hate – but believe me, I had nothing to do with that)..!!
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Do I put my trust in the Scriptures ? – YES, COMPLETELY..!!
Do I believe what men teach concerning the Scriptures ? – Only when the Spirit of God bares witness to it.
September 13, 2013 at 9:07 pm#777104
DavidL
Participant
P.S. it’s not Paul’s view or mine that are at odds, rather it is your understanding that is flawed..
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you need a revolution in the way you comprehend the Scriptures – because you’re relying on logic to grasp spiritual things…and it doesn’t work that way..
September 14, 2013 at 12:19 am#776804
2besee
Participant
Hi.
Plenty of people are saved without believing in your specific doctrine, and they have the fruit to show it.
Those of us who do NOT bring forth fruit worthy of repentance, are thrown in the fire.
In the end, it is what we DID, or did NOT do.
The Saints are those who kept the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.
True religion is this: To care for the orphans and the widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself as undefiled from the world.
Focusing only on christology is becoming the modern day Pharisee, when one says that they are right, and that no-one else is, unless they hold onto your particular doctrine.
This is a diversion, and time waster. It causes: self elitism; separatism; and lack of GOOD fruit.
The doctrine of Christ is SIMPLE, and is either accepted – with true repentance, a changed heart, a changed life, of love, of compassion and of humility, or – one is stuck.
Best to get unstuck.
September 14, 2013 at 3:47 am#776805
Admin
Keymaster
Again no one here is arguing against knowing God and good fruits as being paramount.

But I only preach that which Jesus and the Apostles taught, that Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord.
This is the true foundation. If this is not important, then we could do good works in the name of Buddha and doctrine and truth wouldn’t matter.
Of course I disagree with that.

It amazes me all the excuses I hear and this was no different in Jesus time.
He challenged centuries of established doctrine and it was the religious establishment that opposed him the most.

So it is in these days. The religious establishment come up with all kinds of excuses to just keep their current established foundation which is Jesus is God. But like Jesus, I too challenge that. If you have a problem with that, then you would have had a problem with Jesus in his day too.

If you think doctrine and truth is not important, then why are you even bothering to say what you say. Instead carry on with your works of faith if that is what is important to you. I am not depriving you of that. But you posted here because something agitated you enough to make you react. Was it my teaching that Jesus is the Son of GOD. Would it be better if I said Jesus is God that he is the son of? Would that make you happy again?
September 14, 2013 at 3:51 am#776806
Admin
Keymaster
You say this: “The Saints are those who kept the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.”

Okay, I am with you on that. The first commandment is that the LORD our God is one God.
What do you say then if someone requires you to believe that the LORD our God is a triune God?

Is the commandment still important now, or has it now become Christology as you say, and therefore not important?
If the latter, then you don’t really believe your statement above.
September 14, 2013 at 3:54 am#776807
Admin
Keymaster
You said, “The doctrine of Christ is SIMPLE, and is either accepted – with true repentance, a changed heart, a changed life, of love, of compassion and of humility, or – one is stuck.”.

Jesus said, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”, (John 17:3).

Is what Jesus said important because if not, then why did Jesus say this was eternal life. Is Christology just a fancy word for not believing what Jesus said. Obviously Jesus taught us that we are to know God and Jesus. But if Jesus is God, then he would have said, to know God only.

While most of what you say is true regarding repentance etc, it is also important that we know the truth about who Jesus is.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2 Corinthians 11:4)
September 14, 2013 at 4:44 am#776808
DavidL
Participant
I am thinking that the real issue behind this Trinity/Unitarian debate is not so much the doctrines themselves, but the way we interpret Scripture…
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there are two fundamental ways – One is by relying on our own logical understanding and powers human reasoning (which is the way we’ve done things for so long, and why the church has, over the centuries, become so divided into denominations by doctrine and theology) – the other way is by receiving revelation through prayerful meditation of Scripture..(head v’s heart, so to speak) – this is the true way as it is relying on the Holy Spirit rather than our own intellectual abilities..
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One way goes back to the tree of knowledge, and the other to the tree of life…
September 14, 2013 at 5:09 am#776809
DavidL
Participant
..when we argue over doctrine we are only perpetuating the error of the Scribes and Pharisees, but where there is the light revelation there is no need for debate..because the truth becomes self-evident to all – through the work of the Holy Spirit, who guides us into all truth.. (John 16:13)
September 14, 2013 at 9:24 am#776810
Admin
Keymaster
But isn’t that what you are doing by coming here? You come here and argue with me over doctrine meaning by your standard, you are perpetuating the error of the Scribes and Pharisees.

I have a web site where I teach that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and the Lord. I also happen to rightly point out that this has generally being replaced by Jesus is God. Our brother Paul writes that it is noble to search the scriptures to see if things are so, and so this is what I have done.

Now look with your own eyes. I haven’t busted into a Trinitarian website or group and started an argument about the Trinity. No, they actually come here and argue with me. Then they say that I am causing division and useless arguments. I don’t get the logic here.

Surely it should be fine what I am doing which is believing that Jesus is the son of God, the Lord, and the messiah and God is his Father and our Father. But no, this is not enough for you. I also need to believe that Jesus is God. Why do I need to believe that. It is not a tenet of the faith. It is not part of the foundation of the Church. It is not required of me, nor taught anywhere that I need to believe in the Third Century Trinity Doctrine. And why is it not written? Because it came more than three hundred years later.

So let’s be frank about what is going on here. I am being attacked because I do not believe that Jesus is God, and yet no recognition is given to the true confession I make which is the foundation of the faith and the Church. And what is that? ‘There is one God the Father, one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the son of the Father, and whom the Father made Lord of all his things.’

While I believe all this because it is written, you want me to additionally believe that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity which is not written nor taught. But a little leaven can spoil the whole dough. Instead realise that it was a doctrine that came from a council where a Roman Emperor had the last word on the matter. Can you not see what is happening here? Is it not even slightly suspicious to you?

Our brother Paul commended those who checked out in scripture to see if these things are so. He also warns us of the false doctrine and mass deception that is to come. Somewhere it is also written that if it were possible, that even the very elect would be deceived. And why does it say that? Because deception will be so rife in the last days that it is humanly impossible to not be deceived. But what is impossible with man is possible with God and hence why we should trust God. This is what I am doing. I am trusting him because I am willing to believe that every man is a liar and only God is true. I am not preaching my own doctrine, but in actual fact repeating that which is written. I can give you clear scriptures regarding the tenets of my faith. And when I speak these scriptures I get attacked. Surely that alone should make you think.

So all this advice about me forgetting about being steadfast with checking things out in scripture because it is legalistic, and instead get real faith based on fruits and believe the Trinity is just not going to sway a man who is being led by God to defend scripture and what is written. I wouldn’t even do that for all the riches of the world, never mind do that for nothing. If you cannot see my reasons by now, then I don’t know how else to communicate it to you. I am doing what Paul advised us to do and believing what he said. And like Elijah, even if all men are led astray and I am the only one left, then so be it. Of course, I am not the only one left. God has faithful servants all over the world. But I am just saying even if it got to that, I will still not be swayed into believing lies and giving up on truth.

There is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And I think it was our brother Peter who said publicly, that this Jesus whom you crucified, God made him both Lord and Christ.

This is my confession about who Jesus is too. Why try to talk me out of that. For what reward do you expect to receive for this? I concur with brother, Paul, Peter, and John. And even my Lord spoke words about who the one true God is. Why do you not believe the Lord’s own testimony about who he is and who his Father is? Why do you argue with me for reinforcing Jesus own words. “For this is eternal life, that you may believe in the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom HE has sent.”

If you do not take the opportunity to change, then that is your decision. But I encourage you to believe what they said even if all other men in the world disagree.

This reminds me of Evolution. Every Atheist out there wants me to believe that I was made out of an ape. Again, all the riches in the world will not sway me toward that one either.

These mass deceptions and delusions are for those who are proud of their knowledge and too proud to admit that all these people are wrong. So they concur because it is easier to go with the flow than fight for the truth.

There is a supermarket of delusions out there. I am not interested in any of them myself.
September 14, 2013 at 9:46 am#776811
Admin
Keymaster
I am not a Trinitarian nor a Unitarian.

I am a follower of Christ.

I care not for their debates. I only care about preaching the Lord’s words and the words of the apostles.

I belong to no denomination and no label. People can label me and call me all kinds of names, I am use to that. But it doesn’t define who I am.

Jesus is my Lord, and his Father is my God.
September 15, 2013 at 7:59 pm#776812
DavidL
Participant
I think it must be fair to say that we are both basing our conflicting beliefs on what the Scriptures say..
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This is also something which, down through time, has continually worked division into the church – causing much strife and disillusionment to both Christian and non-Christian alike…(yet probably much delight to the enemy)..
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I believe the heart of the problem, that has caused so mush grief, is the general lack of reliance on the Holy Spirit’s guidance when it comes to understanding what the scriptures say – as opposed to the dependence of man on his own theological thoughts and interpretations.. and thus the need to come back to a state of prayerful meditation with regards to devotion to the Word..
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each person must receive revelation himself in his own relationship with God through the Word and prayer (our daily bread)..and not rely on the teachings of man – this, I believe, is the true path..
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bottom line for me is that we must never usurp the role of the Holy Spirit in both our own life (and also in the function of the Body)..when this happens, even if we are believing Scripture, we are really following man and not God..
September 15, 2013 at 9:45 pm#776813
Admin
Keymaster
David, I agree with most of what you say in this post.

My testimony regarding what I believe is that it has been a journey where God called me out and showed me these things. This is not just something going on in my head where I read scripture and wondered why it didn’t match the message we hear preached today. Rather, this has come with signs and wonders. I have had multiple witnesses in the form of prophecy from people who do not even know me to dreams, visions, and answered prayer. Even once the dreams of another person who called me in the late hours to related the same dream about me that I was given. I was even given a vision of Christian City (Christendom) where I was able to escape after incredible opposition only to see that once outside, the city was itself was in reality a prison with walls and those inside were captives. So it is that I have come to understand that just as the Jews were captive in Egypt and Babylon, so has the Church been held captive in Babylon. Why men cannot see it is because Israel’s captivity was a physical obvious captivity, whereas for the Church it is more about the Spirit and spiritual matters because the second covenant is greater than the first. So men cannot see the captivity with their physical eyes.

My path has been laid out for me and I have walked it and now I am here. I wouldn’t dare stray from what the Lord has called me to do. In this I am doing exactly what he called me to do and I knew it was never going to be easy because it challenges the status quo, just as Jesus did too. But my life has never been easy anyway and I have joy in my heart knowing that the destination is so great that all trials and opposition today are nothing in comparison. God even graciously showed me the destination to encourage me for the great opposition I face.

And it would be the biggest shame for me to run the race set before me for all these years to then give up on it on the final straight and be swayed by man. No, I will keep on doing what the Lord has given me to do until the Lord instructs me otherwise.

This is a true testimony.
September 16, 2013 at 8:50 pm#776814
DavidL
Participant
we each have a testimony and a journey – and a reason why we believe what we believe..
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To follow Jesus is to invite the Spirit of Truth into your life..and thus on our journey the Spirit of Holiness guides us in the way of truth..Satan seeks continually to mislead us – to somehow usurp the position and function of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and he does this by influencing our thinking. Paul said that he was afraid for the Corinthian church..afraid that, just as the Serpent deceived Eve in the garden, he would also try and led these believers astray in their MINDS – taking them away from their pure and sincere devotion to Christ alone (2 Cor. 11:3) Satan wants to influence our thinking so as to lead us away from simple dependence on Jesus Christ..
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Today, as you know, we live in a time of much deception..where Satan has many influences at work (primarily against believers) to control the way we think without us being aware of his devices..we need to check ourselves sometimes – even if we don’t think we need too..and maybe let a brother examine us..
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Your testimony is good..but there are some things that don’t add up in my spirit..
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This is the feeling I get – Some Christians, when they have back-slidden, if they have gone back to drugs they can open a portal for the enemy to subliminally influence their perception..and I think that Pot is especially like a seductive spirit that works in this way to make you seem to get revelation about things when really it’s a counterfeit illumination – I believe a lot of dope smokers get caught up in conspiracy theories for this same reason..thinking they have understanding about these things, when really they’re just caught up in a lot of deception…thinking they’re seeing things that other people aren’t aware of..(there’s a pride thing at work too – thinking you understand more than main-stream people)..
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One other thing of demonic influence I’ll mention – because I’ve picked up in the past your openness to it, is secular movies.. unfortunately these have a great influence on Christians.. the one I’ll mention is The Matrix..you probably won’t believe it, but this is some of what I’ve picked up in my spirit..The Matrix is specifically designed to target Christians living a double-life.. leading you down a philosophical mind-twisting ‘rabbit-hole’ of believable fantasy where your sub-conscious mind is implanted with a seducing spirit – designed demonically to influence your thoughts in a subtle way to a life of carnality – and away from that place of pure and simple devotion to Christ alone..
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Our inner condition before God will have direct bearing on our understanding of Scripture – To know the truth we must walk in light – the light of God’s holiness..this is the journey..
September 16, 2013 at 9:35 pm#776815
Admin
Keymaster
You are allowed to have theories as to why I believe that there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. But I can tell you that the main reason I believe it is because it is written as clear as day for all to see and no one can deny those scriptures, not even you. And I also understand that in the last days Mystery Babylon will have captivated his people and God sends out the decree for us to come out of her.

We should also tread carefully here because labeling something God is doing as a counterfeit spirit would surely be offending to God. However, just like Saul who was zealous and of the old, he persecuted the believers until Jesus told him to stop. Another example of the old guard attacking the new. But Saul thought he was doing the right things. I think it was Jesus who said, “there will come a day when those that kill you will think they are doing God a service”. And that day came. Millions were burned alive for opposing Romes doctrines. The good news is that the old wine skins will not be able to contain the new wine. They will have to change or they will burst.
September 16, 2013 at 9:45 pm#776816
Admin
Keymaster
Do you value eternal life?
Do you believe everything Jesus spoke?

If you think yes, then here is a test.

Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

How can we deny this. It is clear. It is from Jesus. It is eternal life. It is true. No amount of arguing against it will change it. For the truth changes not.
September 16, 2013 at 9:54 pm#776817
Admin
Keymaster
David it is true that drugs and movies can influence our perception of reality. Ultimately though, it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, it is what comes out of his mouth. And what comes out is our words because they express what is in the heart.

This is somewhat puzzling because I am not being judged for saying that Jesus is just a man or that he never existed. No, I am being questioned over the fact that I teach he is the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord. And I am being questioned over my decision to not replace that with Jesus is God and part of a Trinity.

Sure I will listen to you David about legitimate concerns you have for me. But for what I believe who Jesus is, I have the scripture and I believe it no matter what. I will also listen to why these scriptures may be translated wrong or misinterpreted. But sure as anything, I will listen to those scriptures and let them to continue to renew my mind rather than fight them.
September 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm#776818
DavidL
Participant
When it comes to doctrine, what you’re presenting on this site and in your debates is human reasoning and NOT truth – I suspect you are under a spirit of religious deception, because you blindly claim not to do the things you’re doing (changing scripture – and twisting the meaning of what I share..) when that’s exactly what you do..!!!
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From the start I knew that to teach what you do – you’d have to change a lot of verses in the Bible, starting with John 1:1- “and the Word WAS God” which is exactly what you have done, and are doing WHETHER YOU CARE TO ADMIT IT OR NOT..!!!
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For this same reason I find it hard to accept your testimony as valid or accurate..
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For the record, I believe there is one Father and one Lord, as do all believers who understand the triune nature of God.. (I also believe this ‘revelation’ is given to all believers when they first receive Christ into their lives, but some are led away in their minds by deceptive reasoning and lose that revelation..
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Paul’s message to the Galatians… “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
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The only good thing about all this is it makes us examine HOW a person can discern truth – and don’t tell me it’s about lining things up with Scripture – because that’s what ALL Christians think they’re doing..
September 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm#776819
DavidL
Participant
you know your own heart…I hear what’s coming from your mouth – confusion…!
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