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Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • July 21, 2024 at 6:01 am#946649
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior, we can certainly discuss Hebrews 1. I would appreciate it if you could actually read the full content of this post and reply specifically to the passages within that I have provided directly or have spoken of. By all means give additional scriptures as you reply to your position specifically regarding the passages provided below.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    First of all, according to the above God’s Son didn’t pre-exist providing God’s word, it is “in these last days” he spoke God’s word. This is a huge problem for you Berean.

    We are reading God’s word regarding who spoke God’s word and when they spoke God’s word. Acts also speaks to this and identifies God’s Son as the promised prophet of Deuteronomy 18.

    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    and let’s look at what Acts 7 says,

    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

    46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
    47 But Solomon built him an house.
    48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
    49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
    50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
    51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
    52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
    53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
    54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Acts exposes your doctrine completely false Berean in more ways than one just in these two chapters of Acts!

    1. Jesus didn’t pre-exist, he is the promised prophet whom God raised up from among his brethren.

    2. Jesus didn’t make heaven and earth, our Most High God did.

    3. Jesus received glory AS the Son of Man who was exalted to God’s right hand and this Son of Man is returning to bring forth the restitution of all things.

    4. This was all God’s word SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

    5. GLORY for this MAN thus had been with God in His word FROM THE BEGINING.

    Acts we see directly aligns with Hebrews 1:1-2 and we can also directly apply it with the very next verses.

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The Son of Man, whom God had raised up from among his brethren to speak God’s word, was exalted to God’s right hand and was MADE much better than the angels and obtained a more excellent name by an inheritance/a promise, for God had declared all this since the world began, there was glory that was of God promised for this man, even before the world was.

    Brightness of his glory– according to Isaiah 42, the Spirit would come and abode in him, a calling to righteousness for to be a LIGHT!

    Express image of his person-  “Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” and “but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” and “Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world”

    Upholding all things by the word of his power– “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”

    Let’s go back to this, “whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY whom also he made the worlds”

    BY is the word Dia- yes, one definition is by means of but another common definition is BY REASON OF.

    Berean, scripture can have NO CONTRADICTIONS!

    We are directly given in Acts that Jesus is NOT our Creator on the contrary he is a man of the creation ordained by the Creator.

    We are directly given that the Most High made heaven and earth WITH HIS HANDS and THIS Creator had promised for a prophet to come, Jesus Christ.

    ALSO we are given God’s purpose for why He had created all things in the first place and it all centers around a seed of David who would be raised up to be a savior of the world through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him, around him being a firstborn of many, around a Son of Man being exalted to our Creator’s right hand, around him being a king sitting on his father David’s throne judging the world and bringing forth peace ruling in righteousness through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him.

    ALSO this was all God’s word before the world was and was spoken by the prophets since the world began, so it is BIBLICAL FACT that the man whom God had appointed as an heir of all things is also the man to whom God BY REASON OF (DIA) had made the worlds. God’s word could not be more logical!

     

     

     

     

    July 21, 2024 at 8:25 am#946650
    Berean
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior,

    Me

     

    Even 2

    Acts 5:31
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and👉 a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23
    Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel 👉a Saviour, Jesus:

    And even 3  in John 3:16

    July 21, 2024 at 9:31 am#946651
    Berean
    Participant

    1 John 4:14
    [14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be 👉the Saviour of the world.

    🤫

    July 22, 2024 at 5:25 am#946652
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Jodi, you accuse me of “not acknowledging that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual”; but, you can’t tell me who is speaking where in this chapter, haven’t explained why the singular used here is any different than anywhere else in the Tanakh when God refers to Israel (the nation) as “a son”, AND you haven’t explained how or when the Jesus fulfills verse 10. So instead of accusations, correct me with God’s word and not your personal thoughts.

    ME: We actually had this discussion a year ago.

    Looks like it was left off at,

    YOU: If you are going to say Isaiah is prophesying what the apostles are going to say speaking of the crucified of Jesus, then the personal pronouns need an explanation. If the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus; then Jesus died only for the apostles since the “our”, “me”, and “my” take ownership of the deeds done to the “servant.” Doesn’t make sense does it?

    ME: I’m not following your logic when I read Isaiah 53:1-9 at all.

    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    The “our” and “we” that follows after verse 1, INCLUDES the people receiving the report. 

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    When an apostle speaks to a crowd to teach them that Jesus Christ died for “our” transgressions, he died for the iniquities “of us all”, you really want to tell me the crowd is not included within the “our” and the “of us all”???

     

    July 22, 2024 at 10:51 am#946653
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT I EXPECTED FROM YOU!

    I  POSTED EZEKIEL 37 CONCERNING THE DRY BONES, AS A RESPONSE TO YOUR OTHER VERY SIMILAR COMMENT POSTED  PREVIOUSLY,

    HEREUNDER,

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is THE SPIRIT and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    BOTH COMMENTS FROM YOU HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON! LET’S SEE!

    THE FIRST COMMENT WAS DIRECTED TO “GOD”, SPIRIT, IN THE SECOND AGAIN YOUR COMMENT WAS DIRECTED TO “THE SPIRIT”, GOD’S!!!

    THUS, FROM YOUR SIDE, THE SAME STUPID STORY AGAIN WHEN YOU REFER TO GOD, HIS SPIRIT, AND HIS WORK! I DON’T KNOW WHAT KIND OF A BELIEF YOU EMBRACE IF YOU DO EMBRACE A BELIEF, WHICH I SERIOUSLY DOUBT.

    GOD, WITH THE SCRIPTURE OF EZEKIEL 37 DEMONSTRATED THE POWER OF THE “SPIRIT”, WHILE YOUR COMMENT CONCERNING JESUS’ CONCEPTION DEMONSTRATED THE OPPOSITE, TO BE CLEAR,

    THE INFIRMITY OF THE “SPIRIT”! 

    SIMPLY REDICOLOUS!!!

    READ AGAIN YOUR NONSENSE:

    Jesus’ daddy is THE SPIRIT and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    O!!!  I SEE, SO ACCORDING TO YOU, SINCE JESUS’ DADDY IS THE SPIRIT, HE IS NOT A DESCENDANT BOTH OF DAVID AND SOLOMON!

    NOW LET’S GO BACK TO ISAAC’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH!

    REGARDING THE SCRIPTURE, ISAAC  FOR SURE IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT!

    NOW WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON, SINCE NO OTHER SCRIPTURE DECLARES OTHERWISE!

    Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and of her,

    I WILL GIVE YOU A SON,…

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    GOD, SPIRIT, OF SARAH, GAVE ABRAHAM A SON!

    NOW, DOES ISAAC HAVE A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO ABRAHAM???

    READ:

    Genesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son, whom Sara bore him, Isaac.

    NOW, IF ISAAC BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HAS A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO ABRAHAM, JESUS OF THE SPIRIT ALSO HAS A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO DAVID AND SOLOMON. NO?

    NOW TO THE DRY BONES:

    THAT PARTICULAR VERSE ESPECIALLY THOSE DRY BONES IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO JESUS’ SPIRIT, PRE-EXISTED, HIDDEN, AND BURIED AS ETERNAL LIFE. WELL HINTED OUT IN 

    John 1:3 ALL THINGS were made BY HIM:

    “BY HIM” PRECISELY BY JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!!!

    and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    4 In him was life,…

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev. 13:8

    NOW LET’S GO BACK TO 

    Ezekiel 37:3 And he said to me: Son of man, dost thou think these bones shall live? And I answered: O Lord God, thou knowest. 4 And he said to me: Prophesy concerning these bones; and say to them:

    Ye dry bones, hear the “WORD” of the Lord.

    LET’S CLARIFY:

    JESUS’ SPIRIT “THE WORD” IS BURIED AND HIDDEN WITHIN THOSE DRY BONES, SINCE BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. Colossians 1:17, 

    THEN WHAT???

    LET’S READ PRECISELY JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH, 

    John 8:28 Jesus therefore said to them: When you shall have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know,

    that I am he,

    THAT I AM HE!

    JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD HIDDEN AND BURIED WITHIN ALL CREATURES, IN THIS CASE FOR NO USE WITHIN THE JEWS, ORIGINALLY LUCIFER’S REBELLIOUS ANGELS!

    IN OUR CASE WITHIN THOSE BONES,

    ….All these bones are the house of Israel.. 

    ETERNAL LIFE, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES!

    THE FATHER, HIDDEN WITHIN JESUS’ SPIRIT, THE FATHER IN THE SON AND VICE VERSA,

    John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    The words that I speak to you,

    I speak not of myself.

    But the Father who abideth in me,

    he doth the works. 

    11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.

    THUS, THE TALKING IS DONE BY THE FATHER WITHIN JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” IN OUR CASE HIDDEN IN THE DRY BONES, AND JESUS SIMPLY DOES AS THE FATHER SPEAKS!

    READ AGAIN:

    Ye dry bones, hear the “WORD” of the Lord.

    GOT IT???

    THE FATHER SPEAKS THROUGH JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND SINCE IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST, HIDDEN AND BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, Matthew 13:44, JESUS’ SPIRIT OBEYS THE FATHER AND HE SIMPLY DOES AS THE FATHER SPEAKS, IN OUR CASE HE SIMPLY OUT OF THOSE DRY BONES RECREATED ANEW  

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL!!!

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ: FROM GOD’S PERSPECTIVE THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE DRY BONES AND

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL NEVER MIND DAVID AND HIS “SEED”.

    NOW, HOW AND BY WHAT POWER, DID ALL THESE EXCEEDING DRY BONES LIVE AND BECOME

    AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY,

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND SURELY WITH A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO

    DAVID AND SOLOMON, AND ALSO

    HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    HERE IT COMES:

    BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD! NO?

    TO BE CLEAR

    By “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, MADE FLESH,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, !!!
    A PRE-EXISTENT SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE!

    BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, MATTHEW 13:44

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD…Rev.13:8

    THROUGH EZEKIEL’S MOUTH!!!

    INTO THAT VALLEY OF BONES!!!

    ALIVE BY JESUS’ SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE!

    PRE-EXISTED!!!

    NOW ATTENTION PLEASE:

    IF ONLY BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THESE DRY BONES, BECAME ALIVE, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY, THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, FOR SURE

    WITH A CONNECTION TO DAVID AND SOLOMON, 

    AND ALSO FOR SURE HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER???

    IF AS YOU WELL SAID JESUS’DADDY IS ALSO

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD, AND HE IS
     

    A JEW,

    THE TRUE ISRAELITE,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD  MADE FLESH, AND THE SON OF GOD,

    HERE IT COMES AGAIN:

    HOW IS IT THEN THAT ACCORDING TO YOUR FEEBLE SPIRITUAL REASONING,

    JESUS HAS NO CONNECTION TO

    DAVID AND SOLOMON and also

    NO BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    what kind of idiotic reasoning is this?!?!?

    Exodus:4:22 And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:

     Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    ANSWER IF YOU HAVE THE GUTS:

    ISN’T GOD,

    THE FATHER OF ISRAEL???

    AND IF GOD IS THE FATHER OF ISRAEL,

    WHEN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD THOSE BONES WERE CLOTHED WITH SKIN, BECAME ALIVE, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY, AND ALSO

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HERE IT COMES ONE MORE TIME:

    MR. DT, DIDN’T AUTOMATICALLY  THOSE DRY BONES

    MAKE GOD THEIR FATHER?

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    READ AGAIN THE ABOVE AND CHEW THE TRUTH!

    MORE TO COME!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    July 22, 2024 at 11:00 am#946654
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior,

    YOU:

    Acts 5:31
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and👉 a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23
    Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel 👉a Saviour, Jesus:

    ME: Neither of these passages teach whatsoever your doctrine which you had said, “It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD“.

    I didn’t ask where in Acts we can read of Jesus being said to be our savior, I asked for you to give me a passage in Acts that supports your doctrine.

    In John 3, Jesus tells us that he who came down from heaven is The Son of Man.

    We see Jesus use Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God interchangeably in the gospel of Matthew, which is because, “of heaven” and “of God” mean the same thing. Likewise, when Jesus says “I came forth from the Father” and “I came down from heaven” these as well mean the same thing.

    of heaven means of God and from heaven means from the Father.

    Berean, you have a problem with your doctrine, as you’re interpretation is to say God the Son came down from heaven and then was morphed into Mary’s womb, which your support of such only exists through other interpretations that you have made. What you stand on is interpretation supported by none other than other interpretations, to which do nothing but spew contradiction to clear given texts that need no interpretation.

    Acts 13: 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    He who is our savior had NOT YET BEEN SENT when John first began to preach, it wasn’t until John baptized Jesus and the Spirit of God came to abode in him was he sent.

    Further, our savior is according to a promise, our savior is according to being a seed of David and nowhere in the OT, where God had made this promise, do we find even a hint to your doctrine, which is why we also don’t actually find it in the NT either.

    July 22, 2024 at 3:50 pm#946655
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Didn’t read a word since you don’t know how to write in paragraph format…either learn how to properly communicate in the written format, and I will respond OR don’t, and I won’t. It’s that simple!

    P.S. All capital letters means you’re yelling and is poor writing etiquette, and is extremely rude; you’re not a rude person are you?

    July 23, 2024 at 8:48 am#946656
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Admin,

    You: You lack understanding, God doesn’t put his full plan in the Old Testament. Rather, he reveals parts of his plan at the right time / season.

    Me: It isn’t me who “lacks understanding”; it’s the entirety of the christian faith that lacks understanding, as they are focused only on the NT and in general disregard the Tanakh, calling it an “old covenant”; in effect, treating the words written within as obsolete (unless they can twist it to fit their religious system). However, when the Tanakh is read and studied one finds God HAS revealed HIS plan for man. If you don’t believe God has revealed HIS plans, you need to read Zechariah chapter 8 and would love to hear you explanation of verse 20-23. Please also explain Hosea 3:4-5, Ezekiel 37:20-28, Jeremiah 30-38 (yes chapters); a sampling of God’s plans.

    If christians today would bother themselves and study what God said verses what man says, none would step foot inside another christian religious institution. None have explained why their understanding of the NT differs from another religion’s understanding and all the while claiming their understanding is of the “spirit.” I thought the NT was suppose to be the “inspired Word of God”; shouldn’t all have the same understanding, since it “came from God”? If it came from God, should there be any argument over what was said? The arguing should be everyone’s first clue there’s something wrong; but all are afraid to admit it.

     

    When did the Jesus say he’s our “mediator”; in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life!” Jesus answered. “Without me, no one can go to the Father.” According to the Jesus, the “only way” to God is thru him. Paul further states this lie when he tells Timothy “There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human (if Paul isn’t a liar, there goes your trinity and the “preexisting” Jesus), and he gave himself to rescue all of us.”

    Did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or any of the prophets require a “mediator”? How about the people of Nineveh, did they have a “mediator” when they cried out to God in a loud voice and where forgiven? When did God become so aloof that man was no longer able to come to him? Does God, the creator of everything seen and unseen, suddenly need a “helper”; when did HE become to busy for HIS creation? Are you to busy to listen to your children or do you make time for them?

     

    Time for everyone to verify what they have been told is truth.

    July 24, 2024 at 3:46 am#946671
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Sin = Death and Righteousness = Life

    The SOURCE of Righteousness is through our Heavenly Father’s Spirit.

    When our Heavenly Father promised unto mankind, even before the world began, eternal life, that was therein also a Promise of His Spirit.

    Paul teaches that not only are we saved by the righteousness of one man to whom God’s Spirit had come to abode in without measure, but that our hope is to receive the Promised Spirit.

    Paul also says, “for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth” and “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”

    Further Paul teaches that Jesus is a firstborn of many brethren and that we are to be made in his image where Paul describes that image as one who is led by the Spirit of God.

    Jesus taught that his baptism is our baptism, that one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom, that we would drink of the one cup that he drinks of and that cup is the One Spirit.

    Berean’s doctrine just becomes more and more clear that it is founded upon one interpretation applied to another interpretation, attempting to make things fit by even taking verses out of their surrounding context. His interpretations are put on high and clear given scriptures are swept under the rug treated as useless.

    He declares that a man receiving God’s Spirit was not enough to save us, Jesus needed to be more than just a man. He declares there is God the Son that had to come down from heaven and morph into a woman’s womb. On one hand he says this Son left his glory behind becoming a man so that he could then die for our sins to save us, but yet he had to still be of some glory or what would be the point of him coming down from heaven? With Berean’s doctrine we are left to ponder what was still of the Son that needed to descend with him as he left his glory behind that was then necessary in order for him to be our savior.

    Righteousness is life and righteousness is in following God’s commands. Even in the OT with the prophet Ezekiel we can read that God had promised to give His Spirit to cause us to walk in all of God’s ways.

    Paul teaches, “wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” …” ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus”.

    Paul directly gives us the faith we are to have in he who was anointed of the Spirit?

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Are Paul’s words given to be swept under the rug? Who has understanding?

    One man’s offense brought sin and death (this is for another post to be discussed in more depth) but what is obvious is that this man, nor any other human on the face of the earth had been given God’s Spirit not by measure, not UNTIL it was given to Jesus of Nazareth.

    “the law entered that the offence might abound” the law only proved that man can do nothing of himself that only God is good and we need His Spirit dwelling in us to bare any fruit of goodness or righteousness or truth. God made the human body to house the Holy Spirit, but if we had it to begin with along with eternal life how would we know the truth that He is the source, might we have been more like puppets in that case, or might we have considered ourselves to be a god? What we do know is God had determined that no human would receive it without measure until Jesus, which was a fulfilled promise, which was God’s word made true in his flesh, for the Spirit made it’s home in his body. God had promised to give his Spirit to a seed of David, to call him to righteousness where he would thus be able to fulfill God’s covenant and be for a light, be one who would be led by the Spirit of God and do all of God’s will.

    When no man received the Spirit without measure but one, which brought forth righteousness, fulfilling all of God’s commands, we can see exactly why God would give forgiveness unto our sins in him.

    Read this again, “by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”

    The Spirit of God in the man Jesus proved righteousness and so there is a promise to all men to be given the Spirit. “By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous” and where there is righteousness there is eternal life. God is our savior where justification of life unto man is through His Spirit that causes righteousness. Because Jesus was none other than a man and not some sort of godman from heaven, such is exactly why God could forgive our sins through him. God made it for us to see that we could be justified in Jesus because if God can cause righteousness in him, He can also cause righteousness in us. Such is the faith we are to believe in, such is our hope.

    The Word of God is God’s Spirit, it became true in the flesh of Jesus according to a promise where Jesus was filled with grace and truth, where people beheld his glory as he was sent out among the people having God in him doing all kinds of great works, an only begotten Son was sent. He who was begotten of the Spirit and anointed to fulfill all of God’s will most certainly came forth from God, he came to us directly down from heaven. This was all of God’s plan before the world even began where nothing would have been made that was made without this firstborn of many brethren, the first to have the Word living in him.

    Jesus received the glory that had been of God for him before the world even began, upon rising from the dead he received The Promised Spirit, “on this day I have begotten you” and he was exalted into God’s kingdom to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus had indeed spoken of himself as the Son of Man and he had said that man must be born again to enter into God’s kingdom. We also read Jesus say, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the NEW BIRTH, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Our Heavenly Father had indeed declared the End from the Beginning and that End is God’s Spirit being All in ALL, all drinking of the cup of the One Spirit that Jesus drinks of, all being born of God not able to sin able to walk in all His ways.  That End that God had declared from the Beginning is where Jesus is a firstborn overall of the New Heaven and Earth.

     

    July 24, 2024 at 4:14 am#946672
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I let you know that I haven’t attended a church since I was 18 but the church I was raised up in was very much invested in the OT, I grew up keeping a very strict Seventh Day Sabbath, I ate only clean foods according to the law and I kept God’s Holy Days. The church constantly read the OT and sang songs from Psalms. There was no Trinity, but One God the Father and I was taught that Jesus is my brother and my king. When I was in my thirties I started doing bible study with a friend and when I kept speaking to the OT and using it to give understanding to the New she flat out asked me why I am even talking about the OT where she then said that Jesus made the OT obsolete. We remained friends but after that we did not gather again for a bible study.

    Not all Christians nor all Christian churches believe the OT is obsolete, quite the contrary. The OT passages that you provided regarding God’s plan fit in exactly with my belief, just wanted to throw that out there, but I am curious as to what you see from those verses and chapters of God’s plan in the OT are against what you had been told in the Christian church you previously were apart of?

    July 24, 2024 at 6:58 am#946673
    Jodi
    Participant

    correction

    “Paul directly gives us the faith we are to have in he who was anointed of the Spirit?”

    is not supposed to have a question mark but a period.

    July 25, 2024 at 4:39 am#946674
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…..>”Because Jesus was none other than a man and not some sort of godman from heaven, such is exactly why God could forgive our sins through him. God made it for us to see that we could be justified in Jesus because if God can cause righteousness in him, He can also cause righteousness in us. Such is the faith we are to believe in, such is our hope”.

    “AMEN” JODI…….> Jesus , “demonstrated ” to us all, the “righteousness ” of God (IN) human flesh.  All done by the “spirit of our one, and “ONLY” true GOD”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……..gene

    July 25, 2024 at 2:32 pm#946676
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or any of the prophets require a “mediator”? How about the people of Nineveh, did they have a “mediator” when they cried out to God in a loud voice and where forgiven? When did God become so aloof that man was no longer able to come to him? Does God, the creator of everything seen and unseen, suddenly need a “helper”; when did HE become to busy for HIS creation? Are you to busy to listen to your children or do you make time for them?


    @desiretruth

    I think you lack understanding. Let me explain.

    God is not a man. He is also not an angel. He’s not an extra-terrestrial of any kind. He doesn’t have a body. He is an eternal spirit.

    When men saw the invisible God, what they were actually looking at was the Angel of YHWH or perhaps another representative.

    God sends angels, mediators, apostles, prophets, and other representatives including enemies to people to send them a message or teach them a lesson.

    Why? Because as mentioned before, he is not a man or an angel. He isn’t going to turn up and shake your hand and interact with you as a flesh being. God is much too high for such.

    God sends servants and others to do his bidding. He often has a person in the middle just like John, who wrote letters to the 7 churches at that time.

    Now back to Jesus Christ. Yes, God works through him to help mankind as a whole. He died for our sins as the sacrificial lamb of God. Through Moses came the Law. Through Jesus Christ came grace.

    July 26, 2024 at 12:51 am#946678
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You: God is not a man. He is also not an angel. He doesn’t have a body. He is an eternal spirit.

    Me: Can I say DUH!! I have never once stated the contrary. What I have said is God loves HIS creation; why doesn’t christianity understand that? I have never claimed to know or understand why good and bad things happen in the world, that’s God’s department. God said “I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil I am Yahweh; I do all these things.” I am simply here for the ride in the moment HE placed me, for as long as HE wants me here. The big question is what are we suppose to do while we are here; what does HE expect of man?

    Concerning the “mediator”, do I need the Jesus or can I offer praise and thanksgiving directly to God? Can I take my requests directly to HIM or do I need the Jesus as this “intermediator” “working on my behalf”? God says to repent, turn from sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; but christianity says I need the Jesus to be forgiven. The Tanakh teaches, God is our salvation; if anyone can go directly to God, why does anyone need the Jesus? What is the purpose or function of the Jesus?

    July 26, 2024 at 4:41 am#946679
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Concerning the “mediator”, do I need the Jesus or can I offer praise and thanksgiving directly to God? Can I take my requests directly to HIM or do I need the Jesus as this “intermediator” “working on my behalf”? God says to repent, turn from sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; but christianity says I need the Jesus to be forgiven. The Tanakh teaches, God is our salvation; if anyone can go directly to God, why does anyone need the Jesus? What is the purpose or function of the Jesus?

    ME: 

    Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    My understanding, which is clear from Jesus, is just like in the OT we pray to God our Heavenly Father and it is Him that we are to ask for forgiveness. God made it clear unto the Israelites that if they followed Him and His commandments they would be blessed and if they did not they would be cursed. God also brings upon the just, certain trials, tribulations and testing for instruction, for building character, for to bring understanding and establish a deeper faith.

    Here is the thing DT, God’s forgiveness unto repentance didn’t come with the gift of eternal life, why not? Well, because no man was perfect, the likelihood of some form of sinning again was certain. Not until God would fulfill His promise to cleanse us, give us a new heart and place His Spirit in us, would we then walk in all His ways and thus be given eternal life.

    Matthew tells us that Jesus said that he must be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He was cleansed at the river Jordan and then received the Spirit without measure, an anointing to then walk in all of God’s ways, following all of His commands, fulfill His covenant and be a light to both Jews and Gentiles. What is that light, it is God’s Spirit in him to the cause of righteousness. He was born of water and of the Spirit and entered the Kingdom of God where life therein is forever more.   If we believe God accomplished righteousness in the man Jesus through His Spirit and set him eternally at His right hand, we too are promised a resurrection and to receive God’s Promised Spirit and enter into God’s kingdom.

    There’s a great deal more understanding provided to us from both the OT and NT surrounding this topic, which I won’t fully get to in this posts, but perhaps provide a little taste.

    We are told in Hebrews 5 that though Jesus were a Son (one who is led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8) he was perfected learning obedience by which he suffered, which that suffering was him as an innocent man being beaten, mocked and crucified unto death.  Jesus through God’s Spirit in him was able to overcome the desires of the flesh, he was able to overcome the fear of death that has held all men in bondage since Adam and Eve sinned against God. Jesus was able to deny his own will, a will that is weak because of mortal flesh. Jesus’s faith in God was more powerful than the fear of death.  By his wounds we are healed, we are promised a body that can no longer die, a body we no longer need to serve/obey in order to survive, we are set free from a body of sin and death and are given a body of righteousness and life serving God without fear.  Jesus, when he suffered and died, he put to death for all, the old man, the body of sin, for the perfecting of one man equates to the perfecting of all.  God’s promise before the world even began was to be ALL IN ALL to which Jesus is a firstborn of.

    Much more to speak to on this.

     

    July 26, 2024 at 2:23 pm#946680
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    The disobedience committed by a human led to a punishment God gave to all humans and therefore it was unto God that by the obedience of one human God would redeem all humans. Makes perfect sense, but people are blinded to this very logical and simple truth from God because they have trusted in false interpretations that lead them to believe in the contrary, which is that Jesus had to be more than a human in order for God to redeem humans.

    I do find the blindness rather jaw dropping. when one cannot see that having God’s Spirit come to dwell in you means the same thing as having been born of God’s Spirit and thus having been begotten by God, especially when we are told that one needs to be born of God not to sin and that it is the fruit of the Spirit that is in all righteousness. Oh yah and we are even told that how the Son of God was manifested  is the same way in which God manifests His other children, causing them to be born of God not able to sin (1 John 3). Even further we are told that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and God had predestined us to be made in the image of His Son Jesus, which would be one who is led by the Spirit then of course. Led by the Spirit because it has come to dwell in you. There are more examples but the big icing on the cake is that the son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, was resurrected from the dead and given the Promised Holy Spirit and also upon His resurrection we are told the promise of Psalms 2 was fulfilled where God said “this day have I begotten thee”. Receiving the Spirit to live in you is the same thing as being begotten by God.

    It’s also jaw dropping to see people not apply how our Creator had planned the End from the Beginning, where that End involves our Creator’s Spirit resting upon a son of David, a Son of Man, who sits eternally upon his father David’s throne, as they turn and render the definition of dia contrary to this clear truth using it as by means of instead of by reason of. Then prophecies and later spoken fulfilled prophecies are completely ignored that speak to Jesus being of the Creation, being a man ordained by the Creator and assert that Jesus is actually our Creator.  It’s also ignored that God gave the revelation of Jesus Christ to Abraham to which this anointed Jesus had been declared by God before Abraham even existed.  Further, people do not apply Jesus’s own usage of words where “from God” means the same thing as “down from heaven”.

    Additionally they distort the conception of Jesus and speak nonsense, where the conception has nothing to do with a miraculous deed by God through the power of His Holy Spirit for a sign unto the house of David concerning a rightful heir to David’s throne, it’s about which one?…Mary being impregnated with God’s Holy Spirit or Mary being impregnated with God the Son from heaven? Then we are told Jesus was fully human but also not human, like I said, nonsense.

    July 26, 2024 at 9:51 pm#946681
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You :

    Matthew tells us that Jesus said he had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He was purified in the Jordan and then received the Spirit without measure, an anointing to then walk in all the ways of God,

    me

    Hi Jodi, you say that Jesus was purified…
    What was he purified from?
    I wonder.
    By placing Jesus in the ranks of sinners it could be the case that he needed to be purified, but this is not the case.
    The Bible never suggests that Jesus needed to be purified.
    Jesus did not come for himself, with the need for purification BUT FOR US AS A SAVIOR.( Luck 1)

    👉 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    [69] And hath raised up👉 an horn of salvation👈 for us in the house of his servant David;
    [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    Not for himself

    👇

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, 👉but not for himself: 👈 and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.(Dan.9:27)

    HE LEFT HEAVEN TO EXPIATE OUR SINS:

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had 👉by himself 👉purged our sins,👈 sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;(Heb.1:3)

     

    Jesus was pure and holy from his birth on earth:

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also👉 that holy thing👈 which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.(Luck 1:35)

    IN NO PASSAGE WHICH SPEAKS OF THE BAPTISM OF JESUS, WE SPEAK OF PURIFICATION OF CHRIST… ONLY THESE WORDS:

    But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and is thou to me?
    [15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
    [16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 👉This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.👈

     

    ….

    🙏

    July 27, 2024 at 1:28 am#946682
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said……..>”Hi All,

    Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    The disobedience committed by a human led to a punishment God gave to all humans and therefore it was unto God that by the obedience of one human God would redeem all humans. Makes perfect sense, but people are blinded to this very logical and simple truth from God because they have trusted in false interpretations that lead them to believe in the contrary, which is that Jesus had to be more than a human in order for God to redeem humans.

    I do find the blindness rather jaw dropping. when one cannot see that having God’s Spirit come to dwell in you means the same thing as having been born of God’s Spirit and thus having been begotten by God, especially when we are told that one needs to be born of God not to sin and that it is the fruit of the Spirit that is in all righteousness. Oh yah and we are even told that how the Son of God was manifested  is the same way in which God manifests His other children, causing them to be born of God not able to sin (1 John 3). Even further we are told that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and God had predestined us to be made in the image of His Son Jesus, which would be one who is led by the Spirit then of course. Led by the Spirit because it has come to dwell in you. There are more examples but the big icing on the cake is that the son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, was resurrected from the dead and given the Promised Holy Spirit and also upon His resurrection we are told the promise of Psalms 2 was fulfilled where God said “this day have I begotten thee”. Receiving the Spirit to live in you is the same thing as being begotten by God.

    It’s also jaw dropping to see people not apply how our Creator had planned the End from the Beginning, where that End involves our Creator’s Spirit resting upon a son of David, a Son of Man, who sits eternally upon his father David’s throne, as they turn and render the definition of dia contrary to this clear truth using it as by means of instead of by reason of. Then prophecies and later spoken fulfilled prophecies are completely ignored that speak to Jesus being of the Creation, being a man ordained by the Creator and assert that Jesus is actually our Creator.  It’s also ignored that God gave the revelation of Jesus Christ to Abraham to which this anointed Jesus had been declared by God before Abraham even existed.  Further, people do not apply Jesus’s own usage of words where “from God” means the same thing as “down from heaven”.

    Additionally they distort the conception of Jesus and speak nonsense, where the conception has nothing to do with a miraculous deed by God through the power of His Holy Spirit for a sign unto the house of David concerning a rightful heir to David’s throne, it’s about which one?…Mary being impregnated with God’s Holy Spirit or Mary being impregnated with God the Son from heaven? Then we are told Jesus was fully human but also not human, like I said, nonsense.”

    PERFECT, Jodi, this bears repeating, over and over, here and everywhere>

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

    July 27, 2024 at 1:31 am#946683
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Your words,  only show how much you have fallen into false religious teachings, sad! Jodi and I are presenting Jesus and true Christianity the right way. If you were being lead by the SPIRIT OF GOD, you would know this, but because you don’t really have love for the truth , “God has sent unto you a (deceiving spirit), in order for you to believe lies”.  2ths 2

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    July 27, 2024 at 3:08 am#946684
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In reference to post #946652

    Did you put the Jesus on the cross; if so, what did you do that put him there?

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