Who and what is Jesus? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God?
Part 03 Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Scripture clearly tell us who Jesus really is

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus?
Well the above scripture says that Jesus is God’s son. The scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus even asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended Peter for his answer. In fact Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn’t say to Jesus, “You are God”, as many today say. If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that?

Many people today given this opportunity would declare that Jesus is God. So why didn’t Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn’t come from man or man’s wisdom, but from the Father. The Father also revealed this sacred truth to James, John, and Peter with Elijah and Moses as witnesses:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation
It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn’t refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Philippians 2:8-11 shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh’s kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as the LORD in the Old Testament. LORD comes from the name of God, YHWH.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all creation or over all that is of God.

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Seven scriptures that paint a clear picture about Jesus and who he is

These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. If we are true disciples, we will trust in the scriptures rather than the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/theos.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
God has spoken to us through the prophets and now his son. The son is that exact brightness of God’s glory. He is the express image of God. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God). He is seated at the right hand of God He inherited a name more superior to the Angels. God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”. Jesus God is our God too. He is the firstborn from the dead. Jesus has first place in everything. Jesus is head over the Church. He is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Being an image is another way to say you are not the original. That concurs with a son not being the Father. This is very easy to understand, but the Trinity Doctrine confuses the minds of many believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is one person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

Further clarification on who Jesus really is

The Trinity Doctrine would have us believe that the Father and Son have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. It may be true that Jesus existed for all time because time is a part of the created universe and we know that the Jesus being the son is of the Father and creation came through Jesus. By creation I mean us too. And to take it further, the woman came from the man. So it is the Father who is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the author of life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn’t God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus was not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good, and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn’t know the hour that he will return to earth, and he also testified that he does nothing of himself, only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by man, hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written, and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.

John 14:28 (English-NIV)
“You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.

Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”. If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn’t actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine are 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person or identity. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, i.e., his sons. Christ has divine nature. But we can also partake of the divine nature and even then we are not God and nor will we ever be God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God’s Spirit too. God begat Jesus and God’s Spirit proceeds from himself. We were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We know that Jesus is the Son of God, but do we believers worship him?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him. This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

But doesn’t worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn’t contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God’s servants receive praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God’s representatives receive praise for doing the will of God, then it is ultimately God that receives that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowledge that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The Trinity Doctrine encourages people to worship three as God

Those who worship the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the three persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let’s just get real here and admit that such people worship three Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it’s very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source.

Is the son the same age as the Father?

Some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn’t actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Others say that Jesus is eternal like the Father in the sense that he has always existed as the Son. In other words God has always been a father. What do the scriptures say about this?

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

The above scripture points out two things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed in Heaven before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God’s will meaning that he is not God but another.

The next scripture shows clearly that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows pre-existence.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power… before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the ‘through Jesus Christ’ part such as the King James version. I leave that one up to you to think about.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it is possible that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Although this strictly speaking is the anointing, it could also refer to the one who is anointed.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God who created all things, created them through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things. The universe, the angels, man, and animals existed before Jesus was born as a man. But the scriptures say that God created all these things through Christ.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began. How can some people say that Jesus didn’t pre-exist his earthly existence as a man?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Was this in a vision or did he literally see him fall?.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. This is the clearest statement of Jesus existing before he came to earth as a man. Jesus himself said these words, so who are we to say otherwise?

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30  and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

From this verse we can see the following points.

  • This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. This person was given birth before creation.
  • This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
  • This person is not the same age as the Father.

But some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as ‘she’. We call boats, cars, storms, etc., ‘she’. e.g., “She was a bad storm alright”, or “She can really go fast”. But if I said “He can really go fast” when talking about a car, then no one would understand what I meant and would think I was talking about a person and not a car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus ‘Wisdom’. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the ‘Truth’. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the ‘Life’. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  1. That the fullness of God’s nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God’s image after all.
  2. That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. God created all things through his wisdom, and through his Word. Are both the Word and Wisdom Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at a range of God’s attributes that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30


Discussion

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  • #868329
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Carmel……being one with God

    , or anyone in noway makes you or anyone else a God or anyone person you are at one with.

    Attention Gene,

    A JUDGE WAS VERY POPULAR FOR HIS HARSH JUDGEMENTS, IN FACT, HE WAS EVEN HATED BY SOME. THIS JUDGE WAS CONVINCED THAT HIS JUDGEMENTS WERE JUSTIFIED. UPSET BY THIS REACTION FROM THE PEOPLE, HE DECIDED TO START A CARRIER AS A CLOWN WITH THE HOPE THAT PEOPLE WOULD LIKE HIM, AND EVEN MAKE THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO HATED HIM LOVE HIM AND HAPPY WITH HIS PERFORMANCES AS A CLOWN. HE ALSO PREFERRED TO REMAIN HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN IN THE VESSEL OF THE CLOWN. AS MUCH AS HE WAS HATED AS A JUDGE HE WAS LOVED AND EVEN MORE AS A

    MYSTERIOUS CLOWN! HE COULDN’T CARE LESS  HOW PEOPLE LOVED HIM AS LONG AS HE IS LOVED SOMEHOW! FINALLY, HE SAID BOTH THE PEOPLE AND HIMSELF ARE HAPPY WITH HIS WORK. THE END OF HIS DAYS ON EARTH CAME AND BEFORE HE DIED HE MADE SURE THAT ON HIS TOMB THEY ONLY PUT A PHOTO OF HIMSELF AS

    THE CLOWN AND THAT HE ALSO REMAIN UNKNOWN:

    HATED AS A JUDGE, AND

    LOVED AS A CLOWN!

     

     

    YOU: Jesus plainly said,

    the Father was “in” him. 

    And because of that you think he is the Father? 

     

    NOW ANSWER Gene!

    THE JUDGE WAS HIDDEN WITHIN THE VESSEL OF THE CLOWN

    AS MUCH AS GOD WAS

    HIDDEN WITHIN THE VESSEL OF “THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN! THUS

    IS THE JUDGE  

    THE CLOWN?

     IS THE CLOWN

    THE JUDGE?

    YOU:God is Spirit

    ME: I DON’T BELIEVE THAT YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT GOD IS Gene,

    SINCE YOU BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE HIS SON ON EARTH, GOD THE FATHER  REQUIRED

    THE SPERM, THE OVUM, THE DNA, AND ALL THE GARBAGE HUMANS ARE MADE FROM, CONSIDERING THAT

    ALL THE ABOVE IS THE WORK OF GOD!

    NONSENSE and 

    MADNESS

     

    YOU: and can exist in anyone he Choses to, anyone who does the Fathers will, is at one with him,  but that does not make the person,  the same person he is at one with,

    NO Gene, AGAIN YOU CONFIRMED THAT YOU ARE STAGNATED IN YOUR

    CARNAL MINDED REASONING SIMPLY

    BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW THERE IS

    ONE SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HUMANS!

    THAT MEANS THAT THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT

    NEVER ABIDES IN HUMANS

    DIRECTLY

    ONLY IN JESUS, HE DOES SO!

     

    THE ONLY GOD’S CARRIER!

    GOD’S VESSEL!

    GOD’S HOUSE! 

    THAT WHAT MAKES 

    JESUS THE FULL DEITY CARNALLY!!!

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER.

    I DON’T BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE ABOVE STATE MEANS!

    IN NO OTHER HUMAN BEING THE FATHER IS 

    ONE SUBSTANCE EQUALLY 

    GOD!

     Surely you are smart enough to know that right?

    NO YOU DON’T.

    YOU: Jesus is not the God that was “in” him,

    YES Gene,

    IN THE SAME WAY

    THE CLOWN WAS THE JUDGE THAT WAS IN HIM!

    TRY TO ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE!

    EVERYBODY ASKED WHO THE CLOWN WAS BUT THAT WAS  A MYSTERY!

    IN THE SAME WAY, GOD IS ALSO  A MYSTERY! FOR ALL HIS CREATURES!

    ONLY IN JESUS IS GOD REVEALED!

    YOU SEE JESUS YOU SEE GOD!

    AND THOSE WHO DON’T ACCEPT JESUS IS GOD,

    THEY WILL NEVER SEE GOD AT ANY TIME AT ALL!

    YOU: nor are we his brothers either

    the God that is “in” us.

    THAT’S ONLY FOR A PERSON LIKE YOU GENE

    CARNALLY MINDED

    I KNOW THAT 

    JESUS, THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, 

    IS IN ME

    AND GOD IS IN JESUS, and 

    THAT’S THE ONLY WAY THAT

    I HAVE GOD IN ME!!!

    JOHN 17:20 And not for them only do I pray,

    but for them also who through their word shall believe

    in ME;

     21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

    that they also may be one in us;

    that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them;

    that they may be one, as we also are one:

     23I in THEM,

    and THOU in ME;

    that they may be made perfect

    in ONE:

    and the world may know that thou hast sent me,

    and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

     

    Man is your thinking screwed up Gene?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868330
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    It will be interesting to see what excuse he comes up this time. Lol. That is all he has. The gospel of excuses.

    #868331
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….Sure it does, if your son “has” to speak for you , is it because you are to dumb to speak for yourself.  Now if your son tells me “your” words that you “gave him”,  to tell me,  that’s  a different story.

    Nothing here negates him being The Word of God.

    He was with God in the beginning. That is what it says. Why do you hate the written word. Why do you despise The Word of God himself?

    Something inside you reacts to these truths.

    #868332
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene. If this topic was the flat earth, you are the guy denying the globe.

    #868333
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Proclaimer. …….please show me the scripture that says Jesus was “born”  before Abraham. 

    Again you like others add your thoughts to what the text is  actually saying. That was my point with Berean. YOUR view as Jesus prexisting his berth is wrong on many levels,

    One,  no prexisting recorded activity of him before his birth on this earth.

    Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared to him

    in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. 

    2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him

    three men standing near him:

    and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. 3And he said:

    Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight,

    pass not away from thy servant: 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant.

    And THEY said: Do as thou hast spoken.

    Gene, HOW COME THE LORD ANSWERED TOGETHER

    IN THREE PERSONS, NOT ONE!

    16:And when the men rose up from thence, they turned their eyes towards Sodom: and Abraham walked with them, bringing them on the way. 

    17And the Lord said:

    Can I hide from Abraham what I am about to do: 18Seeing he shall become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth shall be blessed?

    YOU: Two,  and most important is!

    he could not have truly qualified to take away our sins

    if he was a prexisting being of any kind. Being “morphed” from another existence would have nothing with mankind,  much less dying for our sins would have.

    ME: Gene, THE MORE YOU TALK, THE MORE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT 

    YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF WHAT THE PROCESS OF REDEMPTION IS!

    HUMANS OF EARTH WERE INDEBTED TO SATAN!

    ONCE ADAM SINNED, HE MADE USE OF SATAN’S ASSET!

    CONSEQUENTLY, ADAM LOST GOD’S IMAGE  IN HIS IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL FLESH AND RECEIVED SATAN’S IMAGE IN HIS MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD, 

    NOT OF GOD!

    SATAN BECAME HIS PROPRIETOR!

    Until some other human not indebted to Satan, not of this world 

    PAY A RANSOM for Adam and his offsprings, which would make them

    FREE!

    CONSEQUENTLY, SOMEONE NOT OF THIS WORLD,

    WHO IS NOT INDEBTED, WITHOUT SIN, WAS ONLY

    JESUS THE MAN!

    PROVIDED BY GOD THE FATHER BY HIS OWN MOUTH “THE WORD”

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    HAD TO BE THE RANSOM IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE!

    NOW READ:

    Genesis 2:4These are the generations of the heaven and the earth,…..

    Gene, WHO ARE THESE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AND EARTH???

    SINCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT

    MANKIND, WHY NOT ONLY THE GENERATIONS OF EARTH?

    WHAT DOES THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN HAVE GOT TO DO WITH MANKIND!

    THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AS YOU SAID,  IS DEFINITELY

    OF ANOTHER EXISTENCE!!! NO???

    ANSWER Gene, LET US ON HEAVENNET HEAR 

    YOUR CARNAL MINDED REASONING WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    YOU: Three, you also leave out many, many, many scriptures that show his true origins , scriptures that Jodi and I have brought out many times here.  Even scriptures where Jesus himself said where his linage was  from.

    ACCORDING TO YOU WHAT IS JESUS LINEAGE? 

    IS IT OF THE GENERATIONS OF EARTH?

    IS IT OF THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN?

    IS IT OF BOTH?

    1Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the earth, earthly:

    the second man, from heaven, heavenly.

    48Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly:

    and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly.

    49Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly,(SATANIC)

    let us bear also the image of the heavenly.(GODLY)

    Four, you force the text to say what in fact it is not saying , by not applying the actual Greek meanings to them.

    I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN Gene!!!

    IN THE SAME WAY YOU, REGARDING THE PHRASE:

    “ASCEND TO” 

    IT MEANS FOR YOU

    ONLY GOING TO HEAVEN!

    NOT ALSO ASCEND TO A HIGHER STATE, POSITION, OR POWER!

    AM I RIGHT Gene???

    Five, preaching a preexisting Jesus, also deny the whole idea of a “second” Adam.

    ME: Genesis 2;4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth,

    when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth: 5And every plant of the field before it spring up in the earth, and every herb of the ground before it grew: for the Lord God had not rained upon the earth; and there was not a man to till the earth.

     6But a spring rose out the earth,

    watering all the surface of the earth.

     7And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:

    and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. 

    AS YOU CAN READ

    ADAM WAS MADE FROM

    THE DUST, THE PHYSICAL

    THE SPRING, WHICH ROSE FROM THE EARTH, AND

    FROM

    THE BREATH OF GOD, THE SPIRITUAL

    THUS IN THE BAOVE

    THREE ELEMENTS THERE IS

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THE LIFE OF THE SPIRIT OF MAN,

    THE FLESH OF MAN, DEAD, AND IN BETWEEN Gene, THER WAS

    THE SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, IN ADAM’S SOUL  WHICH GAVE LIFE

    TO THE  FLESH OF MAN.

    WHO IS Gene,

    THIS SPIRIT/MEDIATOR WHO GAVE LIFE TO THE FLESH OF MAN

    ADAM?

    JUST TO REMIND YOU

    THE HEAD OF THE MAN/ADAM IS CHRIST!

    THUS THE FIRST MAN/ADAM IS OF EARTH!

    THE DUST!!!

    THE SECOND MAN/ADAM IS OF HEAVEN!

    THE SPRING!!! THE SON OF MAN!

    YOU:A second human being, not a being from a past existence, morphed into a human body, as you preach.  That would have nothing to do with perfecting the human race at all. 

    NO GENE I’M AFRAID!

    THE SECOND HUMAN BEING

    THOUGH FROM PAST EXISTENCE, WAS ALSO THE FIRST HUMAN BEING, AND HE WAS ALWAYS IN THE FIRST HUMAN BEING SIMPLY,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    ETERNAL LIFE,

    TO MAINTAIN HIS

    PRIMACY AS

    THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST  OF EVERY BEGINNING, AND EVERY FIRST! 

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature:(in Adam)

     16For in him

    were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is

    the beginning,

    the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold

    the primacy: 

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

     20And through him to reconcile

    all things unto himself,

    making peace through the blood of his cross,

    both as to the things that are on earth,(from EVE, THE FLESH!)

    and the things that are in heaven. (from ADAM, THE SOUL!)

    Common sense should tell you that Gene?  

    Peace nd love in Jesus Chist

    #868334
    Ed J
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….Sure it does, if your son “has” to speak for you , is it because you are to dumb to speak for yourself. Now if your son tells me “your” words that you “gave him”, to tell me, that’s a different story.

    That is exactly what Jesus meant when he said , “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words, but the words of him who sent me.”, Now what is “silly” is why you can’t understand and believe what Jesus “clearly” said, about the words he was telling us, That’s what’s “silly”.

    Hi Gene,

    Jesus also said:”words are spirit”

    Religious indoctrination has got them blind to that as well.

    Come out of her my people!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #868341
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj……That’s right “religious” “indoctrination”, and “pride of life”. “causes them not to even consider the truth, so they remain blind, the blind leading the blind,   and they are in a ditch. 

    All words are spirit of one kind or another, either “good” or “evil”, for every “tree” (that which brings forth from itself) is know by it’s fruit (what it produces)  from itself. AN evil tree can not bring forth good fruit,  neither a good tree can bring forth bad fruit,  ever tree is known by its fruit. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #868342
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……as I said you can’t even quote a scripture without either changing what it says or adding your own words to them. No where in scripture does it say those three that appeared to Abraham were all God’s,  that is you “forcing our text to say what in fact it is not even hinting at”.

    As I have said blind guides leading blind people , going no where ,  “for wide is the way that leads to destruction, and “MANY” GO in threat thereof.” , “NARROW” is the way that leads to life, and “FEW” there be that find it.” 

    Peace and love to you and yours.. …………….gene

    #868343
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    It seems to me that I asked you a question …. !!!! ????

    I sait for a ANSWER

     

    #868344
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Carmel……as I said you can’t even quote a scripture

    without either changing what it says or adding your own words to them.

    No where in scripture does it say those three that appeared to Abraham were all God’s, 

    that is you “forcing our text to say what in fact it is not even hinting at”.

     

    Gene LET’S READ AGAIN AND VERIFY IF WHAT YOU SAID IS THE TRUTH!

     

    YOU: Proclaimer. …….please show me the scripture that says Jesus was “born”  before Abraham. 

    Again you like others add your thoughts to what the text is  actually saying. That was my point with Berean. YOUR view as Jesus prexisting his berth is wrong on many levels,

    One,  no preexisting recorded activity of him before his birth on this earth.

    Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared to him

    in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. 

    2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him

    three men standing near him:

    and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. 3And he said:

    Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight,

    GENE THEY WERE THREE MEN RIGHT?

    ABRAHAM ADDRESSED ONLY

    OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!

    FINE???

    YOU: Proclaimer. …….please show me the scripture that says Jesus was “born”  before Abraham.

    One,  no preexisting recorded activity of him before his birth on this earth.

    ME: DO YOU ACCEPT NOW THE FACT THAT AT LEAST 

    ONE IS JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD???

    YOU:  “forcing our text to say what in fact it is not even hinting at”.

    ANSWER Gene, and confirm that 

    you are a GENUINE liar!

    Cont:

    pass not away from thy servant: 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant.

    And THEY said: Do as thou hast spoken.

    Gene DID THE THREE MEN ANSWERED TOGETHER,

    DESPITE ABRAHAM 

    ADDRESSED ONLY 

    OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST???

    NOW Gene READ WHAT I ASKED :

    Gene, HOW COME THE LORD ANSWERED TOGETHER

    IN THREE PERSONS, NOT ONE!

    YOU: Carmel……as I said you can’t even quote a scripture

    without either changing what it says or adding your own words to them.

    Gene WHERE DID I CHANGE SCRIPTURE???

    WHERE DID I ADD MY OWN WORDS TO SCRIPTURE???

    I DIDN’T EVEN QUOTE SCRIPTURE,

    I SIMPLY ASKED FOR CLARITY, SOMETHING WHICH 

    YOU FOR A REASON YOU ONLY KNOW, DIDN’T GIVE A HINT OF IT!

    WHY DIDN’T YOU GIVE YOUR PERCEPTION AS WELL NOT JUST CONCLUDED, LIED AND SAID THAT 

    I SAID THAT THOSE THREE MEN WERE GODS!

    WHEN I NEVER EVEN MENTIONED THE WORD 

    GODS!

    Gene, NOW FOR GOD’S SAKE,

    WHO ANSWERED ABRAHAM?

    OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN ONE PERSON???

    OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN THREE PERSONS???

    OUR LORD TOGETHER WITH THE TWO MEN???

    THE THREE MEN???

    Cont:

    16:And when the men rose up from thence, they turned their eyes towards Sodom: and Abraham walked with them, bringing them on the way. 

    17And the Lord said:

    CAN I

    hide from Abraham what

    I AM

    about to do: 18Seeing he shall become a great and mighty nation, and in him, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed?

    Gene IN THE ABOVE THE LORD DECIDED AND SPOKE IN ONE PERSON!!!

    Now LET’S READ MORE OF THIS PARTICULAR CHAPTER WITH THE HOPE OF MORE CLARITY:

    Genesis 18:And when THEY had eaten,

    THEY said to him:

    AGAIN THE THREE OF THEM SPOKE!

    Where is Sara thy wife?

    He answered: Lo, she is in the tent. 

    10And HE said to him:

    BACK AGAIN TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS ONE PERSON

    I will return

    and come to thee at this time, life accompanying and Sara thy wife shall have a son.

    Which when Sara heard, she laughed behind the door of the tent. 11Now they were both old, and far advanced in years, and it had ceased to be with Sara after the manner of women. 12And she laughed secretly, saying: After I am grown old, and my lord is an old man, shall I give myself to pleasure? 

    13And the Lord said to Abraham:

    Why did Sera laugh, saying: Shall I who am an old woman bear a child indeed? 

    14Is there anything hard to God?

    according to appointment,

    I WILL

    return to thee at this same time, life accompanying, and Sara shall have a son.

    15Sara denied, saying: I did not laugh: for she was afraid.

    But the Lord said, Nay: but thou didst laugh:

    YOU:  “forcing our text to say what in fact it is not even hinting at”.

    ME; WILL YOU BE DECENT ENOUGH, BE SPECIFIC AND SHOW ME WHERE I FORCED THE TEXT TO SAY WHAT IN FACT IT IS NO EVEN 

    HINTED OUT?

    NOW MY QUESTION Gene. IS

    IS IT ALL FOR NO USE THAT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKED IN THAT MANNER?

    Gene, IT IS NOT JUST TO CONFUSE US FOR SURE, GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. IS HE???

    HAVE YOU GOT YOUR VERSION Gene, DESPITE IT IS ALWAYS CARNAL! WITH EVERY RESPECT, THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO EXPOSE TRUTH OR LIES.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #868346
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene.

    You know when you do not answer questions, it means you are stumped.

    In fact you lost this debate ages ago, but I realise that you may not be able to see that. The reason you lost might be the same reason you cannot see your loss. It’s obvious to nearly everyone else though.

    Berean asked you a question. At least admit your stumped. Ignoring it shows you are not interested in the truth. That reflects badly on your character.

    #868347
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene

    I also asked you a question.

    If his name is Jesus that means he is Jesus. If his name is The Word of God, that means he is…………………?

    Here’s a clue. It starts with T, contains the Word ‘of’, and references his Father.

    Looks like Ed J needs to answer this question too judging by a post further up the page.

    #868359
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Proclamer,

    Looks like Ed J needs to answer this question too

    If his name is The Word of God, that means he is…………………?

    …the word of God. <– on this we agree

    However – I have told you this time and time again:

    “His name is” God’s Holy Spirit’s name; not Jesus’ Christ’s name.

     

    Open your mind

    #868361
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …….Thought he was rich, can mean many things ,  he was rich in understanding,  in Spirit, in closeness to God the Father,  in power after all God performed many miracles through  him,  perhaps even in money, after all the three wise men did give him material riches, right? ,  anyway what’s your point? You should have included that in your question, why not if you knew the true answer yourself?

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

     

    #868362
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..So the words I will, mean the three will to you right?  The three is “they” , the singular is “I” . But none of those said they were Jesus Christ, that’s you false renditions again of what you trying to force our scriptures to say? You have a big imagination,  and are very brave to think you have authority to change the meanings and intent of what scriptures actually are saying.  But then all false religion does that, they add words by changing what is actually said into something else they can twist to mean something different . Sounds like a true “trinitarian” .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #868365
    Berean
    Participant

    What does 2 Corinthians 8:9 mean? 

    In this section, Paul urges the Corinthians to follow through on a previous commitment to give money to meet the needs of suffering Christians in Jerusalem. He made clear in the previous verse that this is not a command. It is an opportunity to express the love of Christ to other believers.

    Now he describes how contributing to this gift is Christlike. Jesus was rich and secure in the glory of heaven. He willingly became poor when He became a man, entering into the world of suffering and death in the flow of time on earth. He did this in order to die for the sins of humanity so that all who trust in Him can be forgiven of their sin and one day experience the wealth and security of living in glory with God.

    In other words, Jesus demonstrated God’s grace by willingly becoming poor so the Corinthian Christians could become rich forever. Now the Corinthians had an opportunity to perform an act of grace themselves that would follow the example of Jesus’ own sacrifice.

    Bibleref.com

    #868366
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..I do agree with part of what you said, but I believe Jesus had the riches of his relationship with God  before he ever came into his “only” existence on this earth ,  he was prophesied to rich before he was ever born, and he well know what his was,  and what he was to become, from his youth on this earth, not from some “prexistent” life.   ALL the riches and glory Jesus had was a prohesied glory and riches,  which was afford him before he ever came into his “only” existence.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #868368
    Berean
    Participant

    It’s the gospel according to Gene
    that you tell me there

    #868369
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. ….It’s not my Gospel, it’s what is written in our bible text,  you can’t find any where in our text that says Jesus, “preexisted” as a Sentinel being before his birth on this earth.   To say he did preexist, is to demean the work of God in and through humanity.

    God the Father,  did not take a prexisting being,  “morph” him into a human  and pass him off as a “real” human . That what SATAN wants us all to believe.  That’s  the BIG “LIE”  and the other is like it,  “Jesus is a prexisting “GOD” who created everything .  These are all SATANIC “LIES”, Satan uses to try to make Jesus out to be something different then we,  “his brothers” and “sisters” are. 

    Satan knows full well by us looking at Jesus as not actually being, a human being,  who came into his “only” true existence as we do, will cause us to lose “FAITH” in the power of God, to perfect all of his “HUMAN” creation, ” his “Crown” Jewel of all creation. 

    So Satan through his deceptive work in the Churches early on, changed  Jesus’ true  idenity with us,   by creating a false “IMAGE” of him as a GOD, or some other being preexisting his birth  on this earth, which “causes” people to think Jesus is not “truly” exactly as we are”.  Which in turn brakes our FAITH IN GOD’S  work,   in humanity. 

    So anyone who teaches and preaches Jesus as comming into his “only” existence “any” different the we did,  is doing the work of Satan himself.  2THS2.  SHOWS CLEARLY, Satan has made the “IMAGE” of Jesus into, “a man of sin”, and all who preach and worship him that way are “IDOLATERS ” .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868372
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. …….Thought he was rich, can mean many things

    Like he was rich, emptied himself and became poor. As a human, lower than the angels from the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

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