Who and what is Jesus? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God?
Part 03 Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Scripture clearly tell us who Jesus really is

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus?
Well the above scripture says that Jesus is God’s son. The scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus even asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended Peter for his answer. In fact Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn’t say to Jesus, “You are God”, as many today say. If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that?

Many people today given this opportunity would declare that Jesus is God. So why didn’t Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn’t come from man or man’s wisdom, but from the Father. The Father also revealed this sacred truth to James, John, and Peter with Elijah and Moses as witnesses:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation
It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn’t refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Philippians 2:8-11 shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh’s kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as the LORD in the Old Testament. LORD comes from the name of God, YHWH.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all creation or over all that is of God.

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Seven scriptures that paint a clear picture about Jesus and who he is

These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. If we are true disciples, we will trust in the scriptures rather than the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/theos.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
God has spoken to us through the prophets and now his son. The son is that exact brightness of God’s glory. He is the express image of God. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God). He is seated at the right hand of God He inherited a name more superior to the Angels. God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”. Jesus God is our God too. He is the firstborn from the dead. Jesus has first place in everything. Jesus is head over the Church. He is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Being an image is another way to say you are not the original. That concurs with a son not being the Father. This is very easy to understand, but the Trinity Doctrine confuses the minds of many believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is one person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

Further clarification on who Jesus really is

The Trinity Doctrine would have us believe that the Father and Son have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. It may be true that Jesus existed for all time because time is a part of the created universe and we know that the Jesus being the son is of the Father and creation came through Jesus. By creation I mean us too. And to take it further, the woman came from the man. So it is the Father who is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the author of life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn’t God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus was not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good, and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn’t know the hour that he will return to earth, and he also testified that he does nothing of himself, only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by man, hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written, and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.

John 14:28 (English-NIV)
“You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.

Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”. If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn’t actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine are 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person or identity. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, i.e., his sons. Christ has divine nature. But we can also partake of the divine nature and even then we are not God and nor will we ever be God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God’s Spirit too. God begat Jesus and God’s Spirit proceeds from himself. We were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We know that Jesus is the Son of God, but do we believers worship him?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him. This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

But doesn’t worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn’t contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God’s servants receive praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God’s representatives receive praise for doing the will of God, then it is ultimately God that receives that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowledge that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The Trinity Doctrine encourages people to worship three as God

Those who worship the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the three persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let’s just get real here and admit that such people worship three Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it’s very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source.

Is the son the same age as the Father?

Some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn’t actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Others say that Jesus is eternal like the Father in the sense that he has always existed as the Son. In other words God has always been a father. What do the scriptures say about this?

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

The above scripture points out two things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed in Heaven before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God’s will meaning that he is not God but another.

The next scripture shows clearly that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows pre-existence.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power… before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the ‘through Jesus Christ’ part such as the King James version. I leave that one up to you to think about.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it is possible that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Although this strictly speaking is the anointing, it could also refer to the one who is anointed.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God who created all things, created them through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things. The universe, the angels, man, and animals existed before Jesus was born as a man. But the scriptures say that God created all these things through Christ.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began. How can some people say that Jesus didn’t pre-exist his earthly existence as a man?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Was this in a vision or did he literally see him fall?.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. This is the clearest statement of Jesus existing before he came to earth as a man. Jesus himself said these words, so who are we to say otherwise?

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30  and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

From this verse we can see the following points.

  • This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. This person was given birth before creation.
  • This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
  • This person is not the same age as the Father.

But some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as ‘she’. We call boats, cars, storms, etc., ‘she’. e.g., “She was a bad storm alright”, or “She can really go fast”. But if I said “He can really go fast” when talking about a car, then no one would understand what I meant and would think I was talking about a person and not a car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus ‘Wisdom’. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the ‘Truth’. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the ‘Life’. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  1. That the fullness of God’s nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God’s image after all.
  2. That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. God created all things through his wisdom, and through his Word. Are both the Word and Wisdom Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at a range of God’s attributes that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30


Discussion

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  • #868278
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:

    “know you not that your body “IS” the temple of GOD”?  here are some scriptures that show this. 

    1CO 6:14……AND God has both raised up the lord, and will “also” raise up us by his own power.

    15…..know you not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    16……What? Know you not that he which is joined to an harlot is “one” body? for two, saith he, shall be “one flesh”. 

    17….But he that is joined unto the Lord is “one spirit” 

    18….Flee fornication. EVERY sin that a man does is without t he body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

    19…..What know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost , which “is” “in” you, which you have of God , and you are not your own.?

    20……For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify “God” which is “IN”  your “BODY”, and “IN” your spirit, which are God’s”. 

     

    FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT HUMANS ARE:

    TEMPLES OF THE LIVING GOD

    TEMPLES OF THE HOLY GHOST and

    MEMBERS OF CHRIST

     

    ARE YOU IN THE POSITION TO EXPLAIN HOW HUMANS BECAME

    THREE DIFFERENT STATES

    IN

    ONE BODY?

     20For ye are bought with a price: …

    YOU: This exact same thing applies to the “man” Jesus exactly as it does us. 

    Gene, YOU SIMPLY LIVE ON LIES.

    IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!

    YOU ARE SAYING THAT JESUS, 

    THE UNIQUE DIVINE RANSOM, PROVIDED BY THE FATHER,

    PRECISELY THE REDEEMER OF THE HUMAN RACE, WAS ALSO

    A SINNER, 

    REDEEMED AND WAS BOUGHT BY HIMSELF,  

    BY HIS OWN BLOOD!

    DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN SUCH 

    STUPIDITY???

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868279
    Berean
    Participant

    Everything the Father IS the Son IS ALSO AND The Son is in no way inferior to the Father

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    …AND “THE WORD ” WAS GOD

    ONE WITH THE FATHER

     

     

     

     

    #868280
    Berean
    Participant

    It is when we make the HOLY SPIRIT a PERSON separated from the Father and the Son that we erect A TRINITY

    #868281
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Everything the Father IS the Son IS ALSO AND The Son is in no way inferior to the Father

    Jesus disagrees and because his sheep hear his voice, we agree with him. He is the son of God and not God. If we listen to him, he clearly tells us that he is not as great as his Father. His Father is his God and our God, the Most High.

    You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
    asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

    “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
    and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

    I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

    Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    But wait, the Trinity Doctrine has an answer. It is because he came as a man. So these words are only true while he was a man. Now that he is back in Heaven, he is God and no less than the Father right? Wrong!

    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
    He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
    Never again will he leave it.
    I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    Clearly, Jesus has a God and that God should be our God. This was true when he was on Earth and it is true now that he is at the right hand of the Father. And think about the right hand. If we are at the right hand of Jesus, then are we equal to him? Think about what it means to be at the right hand of someone.

    People say that Jesus is God or as great as God. But we are really taught that he is OF God as his son. The Son OF God. He came FROM God. He said it himself. And the God that he is from is the one true God. The God of Jesus is our God too. Yes Jesus has the same God as you.

    No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

    How many scriptures do we need to read before we will believe?

    #868282
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is when we make the HOLY SPIRIT a PERSON separated from the Father and the Son that we erect A TRINITY

    In that case, it is the Binity. It is the doctrine that the Trinity came from. The Holy Spirit was added some years later.

    #868283
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    For me I have Only ONE true GOD the Father AND ONE Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Lord Jesus Christ, Before he came   on earth WAS GOD BY NATURE AS HIS FATHER BECAUSE BEGOTTEN FROM.  HIM.

    TO SAVE US HE TOOK UPON HIM OUR HUMANITY

    THAT IS WHY PAUL SAYS

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    THE DIVINITY DID NOT BECOME HUMANITY BUT THE DIVINITY OF THE SON OF GOD COVERED OUR HUMANITY (Phil. 2)
    IN OTHER TERMS, THE DIVINITY VEILED OUR HUMANITY … BOTH MERGED WHILE BEING DISTINCT … BUT THE USE OF HIS DIVINE ATTRIBUTES WAS IN SUBMISSION TO THE FATHER AS WELL AS IN HIS HUMANITY HE WAS SUBJECT TO THE FATHER AND COULD AND WANTED TO DO NOTHING WITHOUT HIS CONSENT.

     

     

     

     

    #868284
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ……another good post,  you suprise me sometime on how much we do agree,  I have only one thing to say about your last post , scripture does not say , Jesus said he was “returning” to his and our God , it says he going to “asend” to , his and our God m and his and our Father. 

    With the knowledge you have said in your posts, you should be able to easely see what I have been saying about 2ths2.   That man mentioned there is none other then “the son of man”  Jesus himself , who they (the apostate churches ) have made into their GOD , AND he is t h e “only man who has every to take his seat in the (true) temple of God, and is being desplayed and worshiped as a GOD,  by fallen Christanity , the apostate churches. 

    These blind teachers can’t even understand that GOD HIMSELF SAID THIS,  “FOR GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he  should lie, nor a SON OF MAN, that he should repent” . , but Jesus said he was , a Son of man, over 80 times.  Their minds have been so deluded they can’t even put that together.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #868285
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    May God have mercy on your spiritual blindness, so that you can see the glory of God who is His immense goodness towards us by giving us HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON  COME FROM HEAVEN TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AND GIVE US VICTORY OVER THE DEVIL.

    #868286
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……But I do see a “man” from “mankind” , who by the Spirit of God, was made into a perfect human being, and by that same Spirit in him do not sin, and because he was a man from mankind, he was able to pay for all our sins.  WHY? BECAUSE, sin  came into the world by a man , it was also paid for by a man, THE “MAN” JESUS.  

    But your version of Jesus,  shows him as a God who never sinned  “desguised”, as a man”,  paying for the Sins of the world. That goes completely against what the word of God says. 

    You version has nothing to do with the perfection of mankind, my does.  Berean you need to come out of all that false teaching you have recieved from Satan and his ministers,  and repent and live.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #868287
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    It is you who must repent

    Jesu said :

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    AND ” THE WORD” MADE FLESH

     

    #868288
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: , it says he going to “asend” to , his and our God m and his and our Father. 

    ME: I’M AFRAID THOSE  ARE NOT THE PRECISE WORDS Gene,

    those are

    YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING, WHICH IS NOT OF GOD WHO IS A SPIRIT!

    Gene, PRODUCE THE HEBREW/GREEK INTERLINER DEFINITION, OF

    “ASCENDED TO”

    AND JUSTIFY YOUR ARGUMENT.

    EVEN IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ASCEND IS ALSO A REFERENCE,

    ASCEND TO  HIGHER STATE

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ascend

    2a: to rise from a lower level or degree

    ascend to power

    NOW READ:

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her:

    Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet

    “ascended to”

    my Father.

    “ASCENDED TO”  IN THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT, WAS NOT A REFERENCE TO JESUS ASCENSION TO HEAVEN, BUT TO 

    HIS GLORIFIED STATE! John 13:32, John17:1

    JESUS FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME,

    RESURRECTED AS AN

    IDENTICAL HUMAN BEING OF EARTH,

    OUR BROTHER in the truth,

    JESUS MADE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IDENTICAL WITH HIM!

    by Jesus’own mouth, precisely

     ONCE!!!

    THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE ON EARTH,

    ONLY

    in that PARTICULAR moment in time of 

    HIS RESURRECTION TO MARY! READ:

    But go to MY BRETHREN,

    and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father,

    to my God and your God. 

     

    JESUS NEVER CALLED HIMSELF OUR BROTHER BEFORE!

    HE ONLY USED PURPOSELY THE TERM:

    THE SON OF MAN!

    WHICH IS

    A CAMOUFLAGED  REFERENCE TO

    HIS DIVINITY AS A HUMAN SON,

    FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY

    PROVIDED BY

    GOD THE FATHER, 

    HIS OWN SUBSTANCE, WHO IS A SPIRIT,

    Hebrews 1:3

    WHILE ON HIS RESURRECTION, JESUS WAS

    NOT PERFECT!

    ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!

    PRECISELY

    A MAN BORN AGAIN FROM

    ALL THE DEAD,

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN

    LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT

    ENGRAFTED

    IN ALL HEARTS/SOULS, 

    ETERNAL LIFE! John17:3

    JESUS,

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM ALL THE DEAD, John3:3

    AS A SPIRIT, WAS  NO MORE SLAIN, BUT ALIVE

    PRECISELY ON JESUS’ DEATH,

    HENCE, COLLECTED BY GOD’SPOWER Luke 23:46, FROM ALL THE DEAD SOULS, BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH,

    ENTERED JESUS DEAD BODY AND GAVE IT

    LIFE!

    JESUS’DEAD BODY FULFILLED ITS TASK, IT WAS DEAD, BUT SINCE HE WAS INNOCENT, AS A RECOMPENCE THIS DEAD BODY, PROVIDED BY THE FATHER IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE,

    PRECISELY WAS ALLOCATED TO THE HUMAN RACE.

    THUS, IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME OF ITS RESURRECTION JESUS’BODY WAS NOT YET PERFECT SINCE IT WAS ALOCCATED TO THE HUMAN RACE, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD,  ALL  SPIRITUALLY DEAD,

    ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

    JESUS WAS NOT YET INTEGRATED WITH

    HIS DIVINITY,

    NOT YET ASCENDED IN THE GLORY OF 

    THE HOLY GHOST, IN 

    JESUS CHRIST

    GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE John17:2, John 20:17

    Now with regards to the Holy Ghost in the glory of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ read:

    Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein

    the Holy Ghost

    hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which

    he hath purchased with his own blood

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINITY, NEVER HAD BLOOD BEFORE, BUT IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME OF JESUS DEATH HE 

    GLORIFIED IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH

    “MAN”

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN ON EARTH; John13:31-32, John17:1,

    I REPEAT IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    This is well mentioned in

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that

    he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit, 

    19In which also coming

    HE PREACHED 

    to those spirits that were in prison: (HELL)

    IN THE ABOVE, PETER SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT JESUS CHRIST

    DIED IN HIS FLESH, AS “THE WORD” BUT HE LIVED

    GLORIFIED IN HIS SPIRIT John13:31-32, John17:1

    THE HOLY GHOST IN HIS SOUL. Isaiah 42:1…….my soul (THE HOLY GHOST) delighteth in him:(“THE WORD”)….

    PETER ALSO MADE IT CLEAR, THAT JESUS, THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINITY, SINCE “THE WORD” JESUS’HUMANITY WAS DEAD ON THE CROSS,

    IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH DESCENDED TO HELL,  OBVIOUSLY

    GLORIFIED BOTH 

    GOD AND MAN,

    AND FREED ALL THOSE WHO ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL

    IN THE NAME AND FULL POWER OF GOD THE FATHER,

    BY WHICH GOSPEL,

    PREACHED FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME IN HELL

    BY JESUS CHRIST IN FULL POWER 

    IN HELL AS

    A HUMAN IN FLESH

    ( MOSES’BURNING BUSH NOT CONSUMED)

    FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME:

    THEY, ALL THOSE IN HELL, KNEW THAT GOD THE FATHER WAS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, WHOM HE HAS SENT.

    PRECISELY TO MANIFEST

    ETERNAL LIFE  IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE SON OF GOD and 

    THE FATHER

    GOD’S POWER IN

    HELL, SATAN’S HEADQUARTERS!

    John17:3 Now this is

    eternal life:

    That they may know thee,(IN HELL)

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    whom THOU HAST sent. (present perfect tense,

    AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST AND CARRIED ONTO THE PRESENT! 

    JESUS CHRIST PRE-EXISTENCE AS A SPIRIT.

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH GOD THE FATHER

    GOD’S EMBODIMENT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. John17:5)

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #868289
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ……another good post,  you suprise me sometime on how much we do agree,  I have only one thing to say about your last post , scripture does not say , Jesus said he was “returning” to his and our God , it says he going to “asend” to , his and our God m and his and our Father. 

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    How? He ascended.

    Notice it says, ‘before the world begun’.

    God made the ultimate sacrifice for us humans.

    God sent his son into the world from Heaven to live as one of us and like us.

    He emptied himself, humbled himself, suffered, and died for us.

    Now he is in the glory he had before the world.

    Your gospel says that God created a man on the spot who came from Adam and used him to die for humanity. Now this guy has earned the highest throne possible because he also somehow was not able to sin too. It happened to be Jesus and not any other contender like Bob from England,  Frank from Germany, or Billy Bob from the USA. Not even John the Baptist from Israel who was the greatest man born of a woman got that job.

     

    #868290
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    For me I have Only ONE true GOD the Father AND ONE Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Lord Jesus Christ, Before he came   on earth WAS GOD BY NATURE AS HIS FATHER BECAUSE BEGOTTEN FROM.  HIM.

    TO SAVE US HE TOOK UPON HIM OUR HUMANITY

    THAT IS WHY PAUL SAYS

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    I agree with your post here. But you stated earlier that Jesus was equal to the Father or equal to God.

    Clearly he is not equal to God. But yes, if you give say 5 points to any being that has divine nature, then God gets 5 points as does Jesus despite God being the originator. If you give 5 points to any being who is a spirit, then God gets 5 points as do the angels. If you give 5 points to a being that is light, then God gets 5 points, Jesus gets 5 points, and we who Jesus said are the light and salt of the earth get 5 points.

    But nature is not the full measure when considering who is the greatest or Most High God.

    As I stated earlier, you could argue that all footballers are equal if you measure that by who has human nature. But all footballers are not equal. Some have better goal scoring ability, others are better defenders, and some have better overall statistics.

    Jesus said that the Father was greater than himself. So saying this truth is not disrespectful at all. If he is humble enough to say this, then why can’t we also say it. It’s not just Jesus who taught us this. Other biblical writers like Paul clearly teach that Jesus has a God and that God is our God too. The one true God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    #868295
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..your position on Jesus, dosen’t consider many things,  one why would God in the first place desguise a preexisting being of somekind as a man.  Was Jesus life on this earth only a continuation of what he c already was before he was “morphed” into a human being.  What does that tell us about God the Fathers work in his human creation? Nothing, right.

    God the Father was not working with anykind of preexisting being, he was working with mankind in producing from mankind, the first human being,   to achieve his purpose in his human creation.  Jesus was exactly what God had in mind from the very beginning of his human creation,  the whole physical creation was made for this very purpose from the beginning. Even before he ever started to create it.

    Jesus defines God’s intent for all of mankind , God took the DNA of King David,  inplanted it into MARY, who brought forth a “human”  Son of David,  just as scripture says , and Jesus also said he was too.

    As far as the glory he said he had with the Father before the world was, we can also say the same thing,  if you doubt it go read, HEB 2:6-11,  

    Proclaimer. …..Jesus was truly one of us “human being” from start to finish and still is a human being .  Jesus was the second Adam , the Second Adam that was kept from falling into sin , by GOD the Fathers Holy Spirit m which he Received after his baptizim in the Jordan river. 

    Here is something else for you all to consider,  this might shock you ,  but it was God’s intention for Adam and Eve  to fall into sin, from the beginning,   why? , because God the Father knew that we all needed to come to “know” (experience) Good and Evil , inorder to become more like him. It was needful for our futures to “experience ” it first hand.  It was also needful for Jesus to experence it to. I know Jesus never sinned, but one does not have to sin himself , to experence it., 

    Do you really God could not have prevented Adam and Eve From sinning  if he wanted to?   Yes he could have , but he even brought Satan into their lives to tempt them. He used Satan to speed up the down fall , just as a chemist uses a catlist to speed up a reaction , God did that with Satan,  it was God the Fathers intention they taste of “GOOD and EVIL”  from the start of his human creation. Because it is needful we learn to “love the Good and hate the evil”. What better way then to “experience” it ourselves? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

     

     

     

    #868296
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:

    “know you not that your body “IS” the temple of GOD”?

      here are some scriptures that show this. 

    1CO 6:14……AND God has both raised up the lord, and will “also” raise up us by his own power.

    15…..know you not that your bodies are members of Christ?

    Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    16……What? Know you not that he which is joined to an harlot is “one” body? for two, saith he, shall be “one flesh”. 

    17….But he that is joined unto the Lord is “one spirit” 

    18….Flee fornication. EVERY sin that a man does is without t he body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

    19…..What know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost ,

    which “is” “in” you, which you have of God , and you are not your own.?

    20……For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify “God” which is “IN”  your “BODY”, and “IN” your spirit, which are God’s”. 

     

    Gene,

    YOU PRODUCED SCRIPTURES ABOVE, WHICH CONTRADICTS YOU WITH REGARDS 

    THE TRINITY DOCTRINE!

    A BELIEF WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU IT CONTRADICTS

    GOD’S ONENESS!

    NOW

    FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT

    A HUMAN BEING, AS A CHRISTIAN,

    BY THE PROCESS OF REDEMPTION BECAME

     A TRINITY BEING IN

    ONE BODY!

    Gene, AS AN EXPERT IN THIS KIND OF RELIGION! 

    ANSWER PLEASE,

    UNLESS YOU PREFER TO BE

    SILENT LIKE Jodi IS, ARE YOU IN THE POSITION TO EXPLAIN:

    HOW IS THIS  POSSIBLE? 

    SINCE MAN IS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD!

    ONE GOD;

    ALWAYS WITHIN YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING, THOUGH.

    I REPEAT:

    A BEING IN

    THREE DIFFERENT STATES

    IN

    ONE BODY?

    TO BE CLEAR 

    A TEMPLE  OF THE LIVING GOD!

    A TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST ! and

    A MEMBER OF CHRIST!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868297
    Berean
    Participant

    God could have suppressed Lucifer when he rebelled against the government of God and brought with him the third of the angels, BUT HE DIDN’T. Lucifer became SATAN and he thus lost his place as cherub in heaven as well as the third of the angels who followed him.

    Why didn’t God suppress Satan when he saw that he did not repent?

    Why did he allow Satan to tempt our first parents?

    When we see the deluge of misfortunes that followed in our world … until now …

    #868298
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……being one with God , or anyone in noway makes you or anyone else a God or anyone person you are at one with. Jesus plainly said,  the Father was “in” him.  And because of that you think he is the Father?  God is Spirit and can exist in anyone he Choses to, anyone who does the Fathers will, is at one with him,  but that does not make the person,  the same person he is at one with,   Surely you are smart enough to know that right? Maybe not.

    Jesus is not the God that was “in” him, nor are we his brothers either the God that is “in” us. Man is your thinking screwed up Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    #868299
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….The word Lucifer does not mean SATAN,  IT MEANS rising Star, as the king of Babylon was until God brought him to the grave.  1sa 14: 4, shows clearly ,  it was a “proverb” , “a metaphor” against the king of Babylon?  

    Why did not God suppress Satan when he didn’t repent?

    Why did he allow him to tempt our first parents?

    How could he repent if he was created the way he is? ,  do you really think God didn’t know he would do what he did and does?  Are you really that nieve, to think God didn’t know what he would do before he ever created him?

    I explained exactly why he allowed him to tempt our first parents, “so they and we could come to “know” (experience) both Good and Evil, so we could come to “HATE” the Evil, and “LOVE” the Good.  

    Just that simple Berean.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    #868300
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    How could he repent if he was created the way he is? ,  do you really think God didn’t know he would do what he did and does?  Are you really that nigev to think God didn’t know what he would do before he ever created him?

    Me

    Lucifer (bearer of light)
    was created perfect …. he sinned against God and he could have repented, BUT HE DID NOT CHOOSE TO DO IT …. AND HE BECAME SATAN (The one who stands in the way

    Eze.28:15 about Lucifer
    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    What are you against niggas ??? are you racist ???

    #868301
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean , no , I am not a racist,  what is a niggas? Sorry for the mispelling of the word ” nieve” .

    Eze 38:15, doesn’t even contain the word Lucifer in it.

    Again you failed to even look at Isa 14: 4,  which proves that it was what God gave to ISAIAH TO GIVE TO THE KING OF BABYLON.  and it was a “PROVERB” , A “METAPHOR” , 

    DO YOU KNOW WHAT PROVERBS OR METAPHORS ARE?

    BEREAN this is why we never can move forward here ,  because you just block what I say and don’t even check it out.  You are not sincere in your responses.

     

     

     

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