John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,681 through 1,700 (of 26,000 total)
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  • #110061

    Hi E

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,11:17)
    as soon as you can tell me how Jesus is god, but not the true God, and yet not therefore a false God… perhaps I will read your verses.

    I agree!

    I have been waiting for those verses also!

    Blessings. WJ

    #110062

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,13:25)

    have studied theology extensively, and since I am disabled, I have more time on my hands than the average person, I therefore study the bible and theology (which includes historical theology) far more than the average person. Further, aside from my extensive individual studies, I have a degree in Biblical Counseling with a Double Minor in Apologetics and Systematic Theology from Grace College and Seminary in Winona Lake, with 1 year accomplished towards my Master's Degree in Biblical Counseling, which, in God's providence, I was unable to finish due to multiple back operations. So, the point is, I know very well both what I believe and why, and you should not assume that just because I disagree with you and you with me, that I am somehow uninformed or have failed to study my bible. Whenever one assumes anything, trouble and misunderstanding is sure to follow.

    Hi Ken

    I am praying for your back and for full recovery. Good for you on your studies and degrees.

    But, I think you will find that many here put their own understanding above the Greek and Hebrew translators or commentators, even when it denies true hermeneutics and Greek or Hebrew rules of interpretation. Many have even dedicated their entire lives to bring us the purist form of scriptures, and yet there is apologist everywhere to deny the scriptures as they are written.

    Blessings

    WJ

    #110065

    Hi MF

    You say…

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD

    Then you say…

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,15:57)
    1 – I did not say 2 separate beings were omnipotent. That is the point – Jesus can hardly be called omnipotent if he needed to have all authority handed to him…

    Do you always change talking points in the middle of the debate?

    Which is it? Does he have Omnipotence because the Father gave it to him or is it that he can't be Omnipotant because all authority was given to him?

    If he has “all authority” then your statement is a contradiction of terms.

    If God gave Yahshua “all Authority” or “Omnipotence” then that would mean he is “all Powerful” right?

    Or would you say that Yahshua is not “all Powerful”?

    If he is not “all Powerful”, then how is it that by him “all things consist”? Col 1:17

    Keep in mind we are talking about the creation of the Universe which is infinite.

    If he is not “all Powerful”, then how could he uphold “all things” by the Word of “his power”? Heb 1:3

    Just look out into space and see what kind of power that is.

    Now logic would tell you or anyone else that if he has this kind of “power” or “authority” then he would have to have “all knowledge”. Col 2:3

    And if he is able to sustain and uphold all things having all knowledge and power, then he would have to be everywhere. Eph 1:23,

    So if as you say the Father Gave Yeshua “Omnipotence”, “Omniscience”, and “Omnipresence” then that would still mean that he is  “Omnipotent”, “Omniscient”, and “Omnipresent”!

    Then my question still stands…

    Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”.

    If he has these attributes now then you haven’t answered the question.

    WJ

    #110066

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 09 2008,15:34)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,07:31)
    I am Glad that you admit the Father who is Spirit is invisible and Yahshua is the “visible image of God”.


    What?

    You have got to be kidding.

    I have been preaching this since the beginning and repeatedly.

    You are either not listening or you just come up with phrases like that to make me look bad to paint yourself in a better light.

    Reading that just puts me off reading the rest of your post.

    TIP: If you are going to say something, make sure you research your facts.

    This probably goes some way to explaining why you appear to not understand what we say. I think you are not even reading what you are replying to in the first place. Or perhaps you have a very bad memory. If that is the case then that is not your fault and that is OK.


    t8

    Not kidding at all t8. It seems that you do not hear a lot of things that I have preached either.

    So I will post it again so everyone can see it again, and maybe you will answer the question this time.

    I kind of doubt you will since it blows a hole in your theology about God being invisible but yet John saw God in Revelation.

    Here it is again with a little more emphasis…

    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    I am Glad that you admit the Father who is Spirit is invisible and Yahshua is the “visible image of God”.

    Since you believe that Yahshua being the “visible image of God” does not mean he is God then maybe you can explain these scriptures and who it is that is sitting on the throne and how John was able to see him…

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat **was to look upon like** a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

    Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*: Col 1:16

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.


    I think it is silly to teach that God has not made himself visible!

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.


    The blatant contradiction is with your theology t8, for it is you who believes that more than one divine being exist and that more than one “theos” created all things. It is you that teaches men that the “image of the invisible God” is less than God therfore causing men to create a false image of God.

    O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even “thou alone“, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Isa 37:16

    Which “alone” spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Job 9:8

    Who did John see t8?

    Who were they worshipping?

    WJ

    #110070
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Can hermeneutics find a trinity in scripture if it is not written there?
    If so why is it useful?

    #110074
    theodorej
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,22:40)

    Quote
    As far as the whole Jesus had a father,  Jesus was a Son thing…. I have one word for you: hermeneutics. Learn to study the Scriptures!!! Learn what metaphors, what figures of speech are for goodness sake. The Scripture also says that Jesus is the door, the rock, the gate, etc…. what is important is what these figures of speech convey about the nature of Christ, not that he is literally a door, or a gate or a rock….. so too when we see the scripture refer to Jesus as “the Son” or that He was “begotten” it does not mean that Jesus is a son in the same way a typical human son is a son, nor is John trying to give us  lesson on basic human conception or procreation. What? Sine Jesus was “begotten” by the Holy Spirit are we to suppose that God had sex with Mary and that was how Jesus was conceived? Your overly simplistic superficial approach to interpreting scripture would lead to such far fetched blasphemous conclusions. Or are you a Mormon or something?

    Nope not a Mormon

    The Scripture also says that Jesus is the door, the rock, the gate, etc…. what is important is what these figures of speech convey about the nature of Christ, not that he is literally a door, or a gate or a rock…..

    That's right and these illustrations used by Jesus to show us his role – as a gateway an accessway , a portal, as the source of revelation regarding GOD (rock).
    Tell me did Jesus use these metaphors constantly to refer to himself? Or did others?
    Did his disciples say 'hey look here comes the door, here comes the gate' or 'hello rock'?
    As you say these illustrate the role.
    But when questioned as to who they thought he was (not what he represented) it was a statement of a dual revelation:
    The CHRIST the Son of the Living GOD. (Father and Son)

    As for Jesus not being an actual Son of GOD in any sense than illustratively – sorry have to disagree on that one.

    re the whole sex with Mary idea – you never heard that from me GOD does not need to resort to sexual reproduction to produce a son, how do you think the first Adam was formed?

    as ever imo and most likely contrary to yours 😉


    Greetings Malcolm…….I can't help notice your agility with respect to debating and making a point…I agree that one must be able to sort out the symbolic references from the literal ones so as to learn from scripture…

    #110075
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2008,04:45)
    Hi David

    Quote (david @ Oct. 09 2008,11:52)

    IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.

    Ok, but I have asked you and t8 to present your unambiguous scriptural evidence for this statement without any reply.

    Here Ill post it again…

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,13:14)
    Can you tell me where this definition for “theos” comes from?

    Since t8 believes the same as the JWs here then maybe you can list some scriptures to prove these statements.

    t8 only list John 10 which can be read as a derogatory statement about evil and wicked kings. Ambiguous.

    I would like to see how you come to this opinion using scriptures.

    Thanks! WJ

    Please spare me of pages of apologetics and just give me some scriptures.

    Thanks WJ


    WJ and all,
    A definition of Theos on a trinitarian site is below (note the part about whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    God's representative or viceregent
    of magistrates and judges ):

    Strong's Number: 2316 qeo/v
    Original Word Word Origin
    qeo/v of uncertain affinity
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    Theos theh'-os
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
    Definition
    a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    the Godhead, trinity
    God the Father, the first person in the trinity
    Christ, the second person of the trinity
    Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
    spoken of the only and true God
    refers to the things of God
    his counsels, interests, things due to him
    whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    God's representative or viceregent
    of magistrates and judges

    Translated Words
    KJV (1343) – God, 1320; God-ward + (4214), 2; god, 13; godly, 3; misc, 5;
    NAS (1312) – God, 1267; God's, 27; God-fearing, 1; Lord, 1; divinely, 1; god, 6; godly, 1; gods, 8;

    LU

    #110079
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2008,21:33)

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 08 2008,13:25)

    have studied theology extensively, and since I am disabled, I have more time on my hands than the average person, I therefore study the bible and theology (which includes historical theology) far more than the average person. Further, aside from my extensive individual studies, I have a degree in Biblical Counseling with a Double Minor in Apologetics and Systematic Theology from Grace College and Seminary in Winona Lake, with 1 year accomplished towards my Master's Degree in Biblical Counseling, which, in God's providence, I was unable to finish due to multiple back operations. So, the point is, I know very well both what I believe and why, and you should not assume that just because I disagree with you and you with me, that I am somehow uninformed or have failed to study my bible. Whenever one assumes anything, trouble and misunderstanding is sure to follow.

    Hi Ken

    I am praying for your back and for full recovery. Good for you on your studies and degrees.

    But, I think you will find that many here put their own understanding above the Greek and Hebrew translators or commentators, even when it denies true hermeneutics and Greek or Hebrew rules of interpretation. Many have even dedicated their entire lives to bring us the purist form of scriptures, and yet there is apologist everywhere to deny the scriptures as they are written.

    Blessings

    WJ


    Thank you for your prayers!! Much appreciated! As far as a full recovery goes, I am open to that, but currently, I am permanently and totally disabled, having had 19 various back operations, including a double low back fusion (eg a fusion in 1996, a re-injury, resulting in a “decompression”, taking the previous fusion apart, removing the bots and other hardware, then an extension of the previous fusion to go down into the coccyx and further up into my mid-back), 3 vertebra in my neck being fused. multiple lamenectomies, various outpatient injection series, not the least of which was a near fatal staph infection contracted after my 3rd lamenectomy, the staph really hammered my spine area as well as being rampant throughout my blood stream, and as a result, weakened it/making it more prone to injury….. and most recently had a morphine pump permanently implanted which releases morphine in low doses throughout the day directly onto the low back area which has suffered the most damage, this had led to my being more active of late and has really helped more than anything else I have tried to help me try and deal with the high levels of chronic pain I live with, all the time, every day…. but, as I said, things are definitely better and for that I praise God!! I have children and it is good to have been a little more active, able to go to their school functions etc. Enough of that stuff though :) The point being that while I am open to a miracle, I have been struggling with this stuff since 88, and so far the Lord has not seen fit to heal me by miraculous means, though I do believe He saved me from death as far as the staph infection goes… not too many people are able to walk out of that situation, but, as Paul prayed 3 times to have the thorn removed… and yet the Lord didn't do it… but said instead that “My strength is sufficient for you”… and that has been true and the story of my life as He has been with me and sustained me and my family (4 kids and 2 grand kids now :) )in so many ways throughout my life.

    As far as the degree stuff goes…. I only brought that up because an assumption…. well a HUGE assumption…. was made about my background, as you no doubt noticed…. it may seem to some that I am bragging or something mentioning the degree, but I definitely am not…. I do count it as a huge privilege and blessing to have had the opportunity and experience of being able to have gone to a secular school (Indiana Univ. at South Bend), a Liberal “Christian” school (Goshen College), where I had to debate with the teachers every day in class as I was ridiculed for my conservative beliefs), and then finally graduating from a solid conservative evangelical school, Grace College…….. but, all that being said, I know there are people brighter and more godly than I who have not gone to school for various reasons, were unable to afford it, family issues, all sorts of reasons, and I know there are people far far brighter AND more educated that I, so while being able to go to school is important on a few different levels, it definitely doe snot make me any better than anyone else….. but given all this, the fact is that I HAVE studied the historical issues surrounding the doctrine of the Trinity, and it is frankly insulting for someone to say that just because I am presenting a position that they disagree with, and seemingly just BECAUSE I DO disagree with them, that supposedly I must not have “really” studied the issues. The fact is, I do not come from a Christian home, so I have no cultural/family baggage such that I “must” be an Evangelical Christian because my father and mother were, and their fathers and mothers before etc. In fact, later on in my mom's life she “returned home” to the Roman Catholic Church, as her family is/was strongly rooted in the Roman Catholic population in South Bend, and encouraged me to join her, but by that time I had done some extensive studying concerning justification and had come down on the side of the Reformers and thus was as far from Rome as you can be on those issues, at any rate…. I was free to begin my research into religion in my early 20's, in whichever direction I wanted to, as I sought out finding the truth as best as I could. As a matter of fact I started out studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses while I lived in Clearwater FLA, and later attended several of their Halls in the Goshen/Elkhart Indiana area, and I went to a Mormon church for awhile as well, the point being I did not dismiss any of the the larger expressions of Christianity (though of course by now I do not believe these are really expressions of the Christian church at all, but are rather anti-Christ driven cults) in a casual manner…. I realized pretty quickly that everything hinged on Jesus, and so early on, I began to do nothing but to research the various positions/beliefs about Him. I happened to come out on the side that the stronger biblical proof was for Jesus being the second person of the Trinity, God of God, the God-Man…. but i did not come to those conclusions lightly, or without a GREAT deal of thought and prayer. So I came by my beliefs the hard way, I did not just accept anything just because someone else said it or because someone else believed it, I study to show myself approved as best as I can, making use of the brilliatn and godly men and women who have gone before

    Anyway… just wanted to say thanks again for your support, and I hope that God continues to use you to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints in regard to the essential nature of God…

    blessings to you WJ,
    Ken

    #110082
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Ken Sorry that you have to live with chronic pain. Sometimes it is good to hear from others how much pain they are in. Even tho we can never put our self into another persons position, we can however sympathies with them.
    Knowing chronic pain, I certainly understand that. I too am disabled. It started with Asthma at the age of 21 ( I am 70 now) After I turned 38-40 I was diagnosed with Lupus. Since the Doctors had given me some Steroids for my Asthma I did not want to take it on a regular basis for my Lupus. I struggled to the point that I ended up in a Wheelchair. Could not even feed myself the Lupus took away all function of my muscles.
    At that point I gave up, and have been taking a small amount of Steroid. From all the side affect of the Steroid, my Skin is very tender and my bones have become brittle. I now have also Osteoporosis and Rheumatory Arthritis. I have shrunk 2 1/2 inches. Have been in out of the Hospital a lot. Asthma now is C.O. P. D. and I am on Oxygen 24 hrs. a day. If that was not enough I now have Diabetes full blown. Have to take Insulin daily. Also have nerve damage in my feet and it is very painful to walk.
    Chronic pain is my friend. If I did not have God on my side I have no idea, if I would have been able to tolerate all of this. We have 4 children and 7 GRANDCHILDREEN. The oldest is married and teaches High School Math and is Baseball Coach. His Wife has Her Doctrine in Physiology. Our youngest Grandson just turned 7. Our only Granddaughter is in Her second year of High School, while the rest all are going to diffrent colleges in the Cincinnati area.
    Please excuse me this is a testimony and it should be in a diffrent tread. But I am replying to Ken's post.

    Peace and Love Irene

    #110084
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 09 2008,11:52)
    IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.


    Agreed.

    :)

    #110085
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 09 2008,11:28)

    Quote
    The important thing to ask is: is the principle [of the trinity] taught in Scripture, even if the word is not?

    Nope.


    wow.. profound…I will definitely have to change my views now…. LOL

    as far as your definition of the word “God” goes, nope…. and more than just saying “nope”, I can tell you that its not found in any of the standard lexicons or dictionaries. Perhaps it is a Jehovah's Witness definition…. but then again…. I had always thought it was the Mormons who were the real polytheists….. at least the Mormons believe that only good Mormon members, eg men, can be gods, and those wives the Mormon men choose to resurrect….  now I see that according to your definition

    Quote
    It is a word that means “strong one” or “powerful one.”

    why…. now just everyone and anyone can be a god!!! lol…. Since being a “strong one” or a “powerful one” are fairly subjective terms, relatively speaking, my 9 year old is a “strong one” when compared to, say, a 5 year old, and the 5 year old is a strong one when compared to my 4 month old granddaughter, and on it goes….. but no…. Jesus is not merely a “strong one”, merely one more god among many other gods, any more than Jehovah is…. but I can see that this is where your Jehovah's Witness theology must lead you to, a denigration  of the God before whom one day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, the one who will judge all creatures, the one in whom there is salvation to be found, and this, in no other, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

    While I know that it is convenient to concoct such a weak unbiblical definition in order to be able to try and refute others views, unfortunately however, according to your definition, there must be literally millions of gods… and you still have a problem of the Bible saying that there is only one true God, and yet Jesus is merely “a god”…. now if He is not God in the way Jehovah is God, then Jesus is not the true God, for Jehovah is the one true God, and therefore Jesus a false God. Its not logic twisting, its simply the application of good logic to the situation. For example, if P is the proposition:
    Jehovah is the one true God
    then the law of excluded middle holds that the logical disjunction:
    all other gods are false gods
    is true by virtue of its form alone. That is, the “middle” position, that Jesus (or any other so-called god) is both god and a true god, is excluded by logic, since the claim is made that there is only 1 true God, namely Jehovah, and therefore either the first possibility (Jehovah is the one true God) or its negation (all other gods are false gods) must be true.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #110086
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 10 2008,10:22)
    Ken Sorry that you have to live with chronic pain. Sometimes it is good to hear from others how much pain they are in. Even tho we can never put our self into another persons position, we can however sympathies with them.
    Knowing chronic pain, I certainly understand that. I too am disabled. It started with Asthma at the age of 21 ( I am 70 now) After I turned 38-40 I was diagnosed with Lupus. Since the Doctors had given me some Steroids for my Asthma I did not want to take it on a regular basis for my Lupus. I struggled to the point that I ended up in a Wheelchair. Could not even feed myself the Lupus took away all function of my muscles.
    At that point I gave up, and have been taking a small amount of Steroid. From all the side affect of the Steroid, my Skin is very tender and my bones have become brittle. I now have also Osteoporosis and Rheumatory Arthritis.  I have shrunk 2 1/2 inches. Have been in out of the Hospital a lot. Asthma now is C.O. P. D. and I am on Oxygen 24 hrs. a day. If that was not enough I now have Diabetes full blown. Have to take Insulin daily. Also have nerve damage in my feet and it is very painful to walk.
    Chronic pain is my friend. If I did not have God on my side I have no idea, if I would have been able to tolerate all of this. We have 4 children and 7 GRANDCHILDREEN. The oldest is married and teaches High School Math and is Baseball Coach. His Wife has Her Doctrine in Physiology. Our youngest Grandson just turned 7. Our only Granddaughter is in Her second year of High School, while the rest all are going to diffrent colleges in the Cincinnati area.
    Please excuse me this is a testimony and it should be in a diffrent tread. But I am replying to Ken's post.

    Peace and Love Irene


    my prayers are with you….. my you be blessed and know joy….. not happiness which is a fickle emotion… but true joy, which can withstand any of the ails the world, the flesh, and the devil can throw at us….

    blessings,
    Ken

    #110087
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,22:40)

    Quote
    As far as the whole Jesus had a father,  Jesus was a Son thing…. I have one word for you: hermeneutics. Learn to study the Scriptures!!! Learn what metaphors, what figures of speech are for goodness sake. The Scripture also says that Jesus is the door, the rock, the gate, etc…. what is important is what these figures of speech convey about the nature of Christ, not that he is literally a door, or a gate or a rock….. so too when we see the scripture refer to Jesus as “the Son” or that He was “begotten” it does not mean that Jesus is a son in the same way a typical human son is a son, nor is John trying to give us  lesson on basic human conception or procreation. What? Sine Jesus was “begotten” by the Holy Spirit are we to suppose that God had sex with Mary and that was how Jesus was conceived? Your overly simplistic superficial approach to interpreting scripture would lead to such far fetched blasphemous conclusions. Or are you a Mormon or something?

    Nope not a Mormon

    The Scripture also says that Jesus is the door, the rock, the gate, etc…. what is important is what these figures of speech convey about the nature of Christ, not that he is literally a door, or a gate or a rock…..

    That's right and these illustrations used by Jesus to show us his role – as a gateway an accessway , a portal, as the source of revelation regarding GOD (rock).
    Tell me did Jesus use these metaphors constantly to refer to himself? Or did others?
    Did his disciples say 'hey look here comes the door, here comes the gate' or 'hello rock'?
    As you say these illustrate the role.
    But when questioned as to who they thought he was (not what he represented) it was a statement of a dual revelation:
    The CHRIST the Son of the Living GOD. (Father and Son)

    As for Jesus not being an actual Son of GOD in any sense than illustratively – sorry have to disagree on that one.

    re the whole sex with Mary idea – you never heard that from me GOD does not need to resort to sexual reproduction to produce a son, how do you think the first Adam was formed?

    as ever imo and most likely contrary to yours 😉


    listen carefully to what I am saying…..and equally carefully to what I am not saying… I am NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God…. I am saying that He is NOT the Son of God 1) in the same we any other human is called a son or daughter of the most high and 2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son….. so when we use this word “Son” to refer to Jesus, we cannot say/prove that He is not co-eternal with the Father, or that He is a created being, or that He is a lesser god, etc etc etc simply by importing our ideas of what we know a (human) son to be, and therefore, based on that, start making all kinds of assumptions about what Jesus MUST be, simply because He is called “the Son”, and therefore, by the same token, when God called “father” He is not a father 1) to us in the same way He is to Jesus, and 2) that just because He is called the Father, or Jesus refers to Him as a Father, that He is a Father in the same way that a human father/son relationship is to be thought of…. while they may seem obvious, people seem to wrongly think that this language being used of God, of the Father, of the Son, etc. is some kind of profound point in proving that Jesus is a lesser ontological being than the Father….. end of this particular point.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #110088
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi E,
    So sorry about all you have to deal with in this physical state. Have you read the book “90 Minutes in Heaven”? You might like to check it out, it is by Don Piper. It is a remarkable story and you might like it particularly because it is from a trinitarian point of view.

    Anyway, you say that the Son of God is “God of God” and I agree with that. I think that this distinction helps when we say God#1 and God #2. God #2 is of God #1. God #2 came from God #1 since He (God #2) is “of” Him (God #1) hence, God #1 existed before God #2. Now since God #1 existed first, He is the Father and God #2 is the Son. Also since God #1 existed before God #2, God #1 is greater and the source of God #2. Since God #1 is greater and the source of God #2, God #1 is the true God in the fullest sense of the idea of always existing and being the source of all things. Since God #2 is of God #1, God #2 would be the same nature as the One He is of/from.

    I think that God #1 is the Light and God #2 is the receiver and reflector of that light. God #1 is the source of light, God #2 is not the source of light but God #2 received that light on day one of creation and in that light was life which gives us the firstborn of all creation, the Son of God, the true Light (as a receiver and reflector) that comes into the world. The Father is also the true light (as the source) but does not come into the world like His Son did.

    Well, anyways this seems simple to me and please don't let your bias tie you up on this, think on this with an open mind.

    #110094
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 10 2008,10:51)

    Quote (david @ Oct. 09 2008,11:28)

    Quote
    The important thing to ask is: is the principle [of the trinity] taught in Scripture, even if the word is not?

    Nope.


    wow.. profound…I will definitely have to change my views now…. LOL


    Mohammed is not mentioned in scripture either, so it would be right to question the principle as we do with the Trinity.

    Not profound but common sense stuff that should be the norm .

    #110097
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi WJ

    Quote
    Hi MF

    You say…

    Quote
    (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD

    Then you say…

    Quote
    (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,15:57)
    1 – I did not say 2 separate beings were omnipotent. That is the point – Jesus can hardly be called omnipotent if he needed to have all authority handed to him…

    Do you always change talking points in the middle of the debate?

    Which is it? Does he have Omnipotence because the Father gave it to him or is it that he can't be Omnipotant because all authority was given to him?
    If he has “all authority” then your statement is a contradiction of terms.


    Thanks for pointing out that MISTAKE – I must have been tired when I wrote this, don’t have as much time as I would like to spend on this forum, so forgive me if I make a slight mistake from time to time.
    Let me clear up my position regarding this. Firstly here are my comments you referred to…

    Quote
    Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD – after he rose from the grave. If it was an intrinsic part of himself he could not have it then not have it then have it again…
    Also he said himself that his Father was greater than him (Mt 14:28)
    Omniscience – Jesus did not know everything that the Father did (Mk 13:32) Now as with the previous point – he cannot have omniscience then lose it then gain it again…


    I quess my real point here is that omnipotence, omniscience are intrinsic essential attributes of GOD. I believe that they are also unique to HIM.
    If we consider omnipotence for instance, it must be possessed by one alone to truly be omnipotence. (imo)
    If it is shared then how is it omnipotence? How can more than one be said to be: the Almighty One Alone?
    Omnipotent – as I understand it – means all powerful – in other words powerful above all other things.
    If two or more (three) are said to be all-powerful  in  a degree above all other things this meaning is lost when the persons in question use “I, me and my” instead of “we, us and our”.
    To maintain purity of meaning you would have to say of any of these shared rulers – that they are part of the Almighty.
    If any of them (Father, Son or Holy Spirit) were to say they alone were the Almighty – then there is internal conflict, one is now claiming a greater degree of omnipotence than the others.
    To be correct they would have to say “we are the Almighty and none else”
    However I do not see it stated in this way in scriptures.

    #110098
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    If God gave Yahshua “all Authority” or “Omnipotence” then that would mean he is “all Powerful” right?

    Or would you say that Yahshua is not “all Powerful”?


    I would say the power is OF GOD. The giving is FROM GOD. The delivery is through Son(s).
    Elijah is quoted in scripture as saying ‘Not one drop of rain shall fall until I call for it’.
    GOD told Moses to stop crying out to HIM and speak what he wanted done.
    Joshua once commanded the sun to stand still for an hour.
    All of these are suitable illustrations of how GOD is well pleased to exercise HIS power through HIS creation. (imo)
    Jesus himself said if YOU tell this mountain to be moved and do not doubt in your heart – it shall be done.
    What was he getting at? That if GOD put it in your heart to be done then YOU could speak and it would happen.
    Why? Because you spoke? because of your abilities? Because of your omnipotence?
    No, because GOD put the faith in you to do it, and HE is well pleased to do it in and through you.

    Quote
    If he is not “all Powerful”, then how is it that by him “all things consist”? Col 1:17


    how? At the pleasure of GOD who was pleased to dwell in HIM.
    If it pleased the Father (GOD – the one and only GOD) that in the Son should dwell all fullness
    Then firstly- what is all fullness? Which is an imperfectly formed question and should be WHO is all fullness?
    The answer quite simply put is GOD!
    So what is being said here is that GOD was pleased to dwell in the Son.
    A sentiment HE echoes on Jordan when the tabernacle of HIS Son had now been transformed from a form of GOD (Spirit) to that of flesh. (imo)

    Quote
    If he is not “all Powerful”, then how could he uphold “all things” by the Word of “his power”? Heb 1:3

    HEBREWS 1:1-3
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Good question
    Verse 3:
    Jesus is the brightness of HIS (who? GOD’s) glory Jesus is the express image of HIS (who? GOD’s) person
    and Jesus upholds all things by the Word of HIS (who?…) POWER.
    There is a pattern here or 3 uses of the word HIS all in the context of Jesus and GOD.
    Who does this ‘his’ here refer to?
    Whose Word of Power was Jesus representing?
    His own or that of his Father?
    For that matter whose blood are we saved by? GOD’s!
    How? Through the sacrifice of the son of God.
    Notice verse two tells us that God made the worlds. How?
    By this same son who He (God) spoke to men.
    As I have said in the past it is the principle of “God in Christ” of “Father in Son” that reveals the mystery of God.
    And when that mystery is revealed we see the unchanging God

    and that He changes not in the manner in which He deals with men (i.e through son(s) – to the fathers: in prophets – in this day: in Son.)
    I do not believe that this Father and Son disclosure of God began on earth,
    it began in Heaven but remained a mystery until it was manifest on earth,
    and in the world to come will be known to all. (imo)

    #110099
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    Now logic would tell you or anyone else that if he has this kind of “power” or “authority” then he would have to have “all knowledge”. Col 2:3


    Logic is not much of an asset of itself – any knowledge we have can either trip us up or assist us in coming closer to an understanding of Truth. So as you will no doubt agree it must be tempered with the Word and the Spirit. There is not a person on here who could with logic and reason alone explain to satisfaction these things. Even with the help of the Spirit of God and a skillful use of scripture one cannot hope with mere words to satisfactorily explain God.


    COLOSSIANS 2:2-3
    That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Col 2:3 says they (all the treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge) are hid or veiled – masked in Christ, they are also revealed via him. The Wisdom and Knowledge is a shared attribute from GOD, we also are able to partake of it in our measure – we have this treasure in earthen vessels – so it is hidden in us also – why? So that the Excellency might be of GOD! – Just as Jesus who only declared His Fathers’ life and will and purpose.
    Notice also it is the mystery of GOD: namely of the Father and the Son that is hidden and revealed in Christ who is the mystery of GOD revealed. (imo)

    Quote
    And if he is able to sustain and uphold all things having all knowledge and power, then he would have to be everywhere. Eph 1:23,

    EPHESIANS 1:22-3
    And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
    Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    As I understand it this is saying that Jesus is the head of the church, which is his body.
    The church which is his body is then said to be the fullness of him.
    By that logic we would have to be the fullness of GOD also – we would be omnipresent also if this verse proves Jesus is omnipresent – for it also says we are his fullness. Like I say logic is not always a friend – the wisdom of man is foolishness to HIM and vice versa.

    #110108

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 10 2008,08:41)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2008,04:45)
    Hi David

    Quote (david @ Oct. 09 2008,11:52)

    IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.

    Ok, but I have asked you and t8 to present your unambiguous scriptural evidence for this statement without any reply.

    Here Ill post it again…

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,13:14)
    Can you tell me where this definition for “theos” comes from?

    Since t8 believes the same as the JWs here then maybe you can list some scriptures to prove these statements.

    t8 only list John 10 which can be read as a derogatory statement about evil and wicked kings. Ambiguous.

    I would like to see how you come to this opinion using scriptures.

    Thanks! WJ

    Please spare me of pages of apologetics and just give me some scriptures.

    Thanks WJ


    WJ and all,
    A definition of Theos on a trinitarian site is below (note the part about whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    God's representative or viceregent
    of magistrates and judges ):

    Strong's Number:  2316 qeo/v
    Original Word Word Origin
     qeo/v   of uncertain affinity
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
     Theos   theh'-os    
    Parts of Speech TDNT
        a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
    Definition
     a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    the Godhead, trinity
    God the Father, the first person in the trinity
    Christ, the second person of the trinity
    Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
    spoken of the only and true God
    refers to the things of God
    his counsels, interests, things due to him
    whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    God's representative or viceregent
    of magistrates and judges

    Translated Words
    KJV (1343) – God, 1320; God-ward + (4214), 2; god, 13; godly, 3; misc, 5;
    NAS (1312) – God, 1267; God's, 27; God-fearing, 1; Lord, 1; divinely, 1; god, 6; godly, 1; gods, 8;

    LU


    Hi LU

    So in other words then there are millions of “true gods”.

    Do you think the scholar was contradicting himself when he says “theos” means “the only and true God” and then infers that there are other “true Gods”?

    No I think the scholar has in mind an example of the word being used like this…

    He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and “as if you were God to him“. Exo 4:16

    Moses was as a “God” to Pharoah, but Moses was not called God here by YHWH.

    There are many lords and many gods but there is only “One True God”, all the rest are not gods at all or are false.

    Why is it you would take that meaning of the word over the use of the word defining the Trinity? Nevermind, I know the answer.

    Now lets see if you can find the word “theos” ascribed to any other being with qualities of God or his attributes with the definite article.

    You will find only Yahshua is.

    WJ

    #110110
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    listen carefully to what I am saying…..and equally carefully to what I am not saying… I am NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God…. I am saying that He is NOT the Son of God 1) in the same we any other human is called a son or daughter of the most high and 2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son…..


    Sounds good in theory – but how can I have any concept of a son that is not like any son or offspring in the natural except that the dissimilarities be explicitly outlined to me. I don’t see statements in the scripture to that end, indicating that he is the son of God in some ways but in others not a son like us.
    Perhaps it would be helpful to examine these dissimilarities as you say
    (1) Dissimilar in the sense that he is not the son of God in the same way we (the sons of God) are called sons.
    By this I assume you are meaning that because Jesus is the uniquely begotten son he is different.
    I would say that this denotes a difference in the way he came to be manifest in flesh – i.e. he (unlike us) had a pre-existence in the form of Spirit, and a former knowledge of his Father which we lacked until the rebirth. Also he came into flesh without the need of sexual reproduction which was introduced after the fall when man took on the nature of beasts. Adam was formed by God apart from sex as was Eve. Christ was of the same pattern as are the reborn – who are not born of the will of the flesh or of man but born of God by the Spirit of God.
    Also this uniqueness extends to his status as that of a firstborn and as such the principle heir to his Father. (A difference of role – not an intrinsic difference)
    In any other sense I see no dissimilarity – he is a son not of Flesh but manifest in flesh, as are the sons of God, born in this world but not of it, born of the same Spirit of God.
    Jesus in fact removes most of the obstacles that we as humans would tend to place before ourselves as a way of distancing ourselves from him as a son.
    He unashamedly calls us brethren, not servants.
    He teaches us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Father as he has.
    We obtain a degree of equality with him that is likened to that of Eve – the bride of Adam, who was equal with him before the transgression. She was taken from his side, and was given to him. So is Christ the head of the Church. But this is a difference of role, not an intrinsic difference.
    (2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son
    Obviously we understand that any true son of God is not born by the regular human way of reproduction but by the Spirit of God. How are we different to him in this respect? Remember we are speaking here of sons of God, we are not born in flesh as sons of God but with a contrary spirit and nature to God. This is why we must be born again of the Spirit.
    Only difference here between us and Jesus as a son was that he did not require a rebirth to be son of God, but was (as Adam) a son of God from birth. (imo)
    So GOD does not require a process of sexual reproduction in order to produce a son of God. Instead of begetting sons by sex he begets us by His Spirit. That stands to reason considering God is Spirit and not flesh and bone.
    It was GOD who set the pattern for life natural as well summarized in Gen 1:11 and whether by sex or botanic reproduction we see this pattern applies. Why did God set such unchanging patterns into His physical creation?
    Because the natural shadows and types to the Spiritual. Thus we are able to draw upon natural analogies as scripture does to illustrate the way of God. (imo)
    It was God who chose this use of language: Father and Son, and nowhere does he show us that this relationship is exceptional to that of a natural Father and Son, except it is obvious that there are differences in the way God achieves the bringing forth of sons, and human beings or other animals do.
    Also there are differences of role and therefore position and status.
    Blessings

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