John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,201 through 1,220 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #104289
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 07 2008,21:53)
    Hi Irene,
    He was a mere man.
    A man is a man, none are born sinless supermen.
    He came here with no inbuilt advantages or we can't follow him
    A mere man given a caring upbringing by his father such that he did not sin.


    Nick Yes, His upbringing was much, much different, that is why He would not sin. We, not one of us, had that kind of upbringing. IMO He had therefore an easier time obeying God.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #104306
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Irene,
    Not so sure about that either.
    Heb12
    5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

    8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

    11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    Is53
    1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    #104355
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Show us where in scriptures that Jesus wasn't holy and had to be chastened so that He might be a partaker of holiness. He was born holy ya know. Jesus is an exception, He was perfect. He had to learn obedience as a man but that doesn't mean that He was ever disobedient. If you disagree please show us that Jesus was disobedient and in what circumstance with chapter and verse.

    Also, He had no exceptional beauty when He was a man so that man wouldn't come to Him on that alone.

    Furthermore, He was despised and rejected of men when He was in the process of crucifixion. Other than that He was so revered that He became a threat. People came from all over to meet Him, they lined the streets waving palm branches as He rode down their streets, He in fact was becoming so popular that He was a threat to the government and those in high places.

    Nick, were you born holy? Jesus was. Also, what do you think His role in creation was.
    LU

    #104356
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    If Jesus did not need to chastened then according to Heb12 he was not a son of God.

    #104358
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    We cannot follow a perfect man because we are not.
    This demigod status is not of scripture.

    Luke 1:70
    As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    #104359
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Orrrrrrr Hebrews 12 is referring to those who were not holy sons which is all His sons that were foreknown to be adopted. We know beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus is clearly God's son who was born holy and already partaking in God's holiness. That is written.

    No where is it written that Jesus was being chastened by His Father. Don't presume. Remember 2-3 witnesses establish the truth. You have given no verses that show Jesus being chastened.
    LU

    #104360
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,
    I posted this in pre-existense and I don't think that it got the attention it deserved so I am putting it here.

    Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here. Don't miss v. 16.

    Isa 48:12-16
    12
    “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
    I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
    13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
    And My right hand spread out the heavens;
    When I call to them, they stand together.
    14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
    Who among them has declared these things?
    The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
    And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
    15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
    I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
    16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
    From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there.
    And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
    NASU

    Here this might help:
    Heb 1:8-10

    8 But of the Son He says…….

    10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    NASU

    The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
    Rev 1:17-19

    17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
    NASU

    Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.

    In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God? Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit.

    LU

    #104361
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2008,16:42)
    Hi Nick,
    Orrrrrrr Hebrews 12 is referring to those who were not holy sons which is all His sons that were foreknown to be adopted.  We know beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus is clearly God's son who was born holy and already partaking in God's holiness.  That is written.

    No where is it written that Jesus was being chastened by His Father.  Don't presume.  Remember 2-3 witnesses establish the truth.  You have given no verses that show Jesus being chastened.
    LU


    Hi LU,
    And his appearance in Is 53 was not to do with suffering?

    God made sure his son obeyed every detail despite being tested in every way we are.

    Where scripturally does temptation come from?[Jas]

    Was he an overcomer?
    Scripture calls him such

    #104364
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    He suffered alright but not from chastening. He suffered from mental and physical abuse from those He was willing to die for. No doubt He overcame. He overcame the right to call down thousands of angels for His defense. He overcame temptation from satan. He overcame the urge to return evil for evil, etc.
    LU

    #104366
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Grief was included.
    That would perhaps be for Joseph which was before his anointing?

    Overcame the right???
    Hmmm

    We follow him, as overcomers

    Revelation 3:21
    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    #104367
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Maybe it is better said that He overcame making an appeal for help. He had the right to do that I do believe. That is what makes His willingness to die even more amazing.

    Matt 26:53-54
    53 “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
    NASU

    LU

    #104368
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    So where does sin originate?[Jas]
    If he overcame sin in the flesh we can follow him in the same power.

    Rom8
    Romans 8:3
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    No supernman with a head start but a man like us that we can love.

    #104369
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    I guess we are a party of two here tonight. Are you wearing your party hat. Maybe it is afternoon in NZ-an early happy hour for you then, eh?

    Anyway, grieving , yes Jesus grieved but not from chastening by His Father.

    So who is the “I” in Is 48:12-16??
    LU

    #104370
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    As soon as you answer mine.

    #104372
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Well, the origin of sin, hmmm. Satan's pride, yes that's it which led to disobedience.
    Your turn.

    #104373
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Here I am. Who is the ” I ” Jesus IMO.
    You know why I think Jesus grieved? IMO because of all the unbelief and sinful man that surrounded Him.
    But I still believe that Jesus was different then all of us. I believe that if He would have been like us, He would have failed and sinned. I just cant see it any other way. If we believe Scripture, then if all have fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus never did fall short of that, even tho He gave up that glory.
    I don't know anybody else who had or has God's Holy Spirit full strength, do you?

    Peace and Love Irene

    #104375
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    James 1
    1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

    3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

    12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    16Do not err, my beloved brethren.

    He was tempted from within like any man.
    He overcame

    #104376
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2008,17:32)
    Nick,
    I guess we are a party of two here tonight.  Are you wearing your party hat.  Maybe it is afternoon in NZ-an early happy hour for you then, eh?

    Anyway, grieving , yes Jesus grieved but not from chastening by His Father.

    So who is the “I” in Is 48:12-16??
    LU


    Hi Lu,
    The Word I would say.

    #104378
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2008,11:31)
    He emptied himself.  *It's still questioned just what he emptied*

    Taking the form of a bond servant.  *He became poor so that he could reach us*

    Being made in the likeness of men.  *He was born to Mary, a human being*

    To me, this passage has never meant that Jesus lived prior to his birth.  It could simply mean that he emptied himself of his pride (as Paul is admonishing everyone to do in context), that he took a low position among us, and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

    At this point I am relying on my own experience with Jesus and with God.  If I were to rely on the Scriptures alone I would be on a merry-go-round that never stopped!  There are just too many interpretations available to any one passage.

    Talk about AMBIGUOUS!

    Mandy


    It says he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and then made himself of no reputation and took upon him flesh.

    So if he partakes of human nature and becomes human, then it probably doesn't require much imagination as to what he left and what he took on. It is there for all to read.

    Philippians 2:6-7 (King James Version)
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Philippians 2:6 (New International Version)
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
         did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

  • Was in the form of God, or had divine nature.
  • Demoted himself to become a man
  • Humbled himself to the point of death
  • Raised up to the right hand of God
#104419
Lightenup
Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2008,00:44)
Hi all,
I posted this in pre-existense and I don't think that it got the attention it deserved so I am putting it here.

Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here. Don't miss v. 16.

Isa 48:12-16
12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASU

Here this might help:
Heb 1:8-10

8 But of the Son He says…….

10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU

The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-19

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASU

Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.

In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God? Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit.

LU


Hi Nick,
So is the word the first and the last? Where is that written?

Viewing 20 posts - 1,201 through 1,220 (of 25,997 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account