John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,361 through 6,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #294397
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2012,00:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,05:49)
    Hi Jammin,
    the Word WAS God.


    yes nick
    that is the nature of the Word, GOD.


    Hi Jammin,

    The “HolySpirit” can be nothing but himself; do you agree?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #294399
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2012,00:09)
    i believe what john says that the word is the son of God

    case closed


    Don't bother me with the facts because I already have my mind made up   ~ Jammin

    #294424
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:11)
    hi KW,
    Yes he and creation were cursed when he was in his original body.
    We inherited it.


    Nick,

    Adam was cursed with weakness, mortality, and adversity.  Never the less the Spirit struggled against these things until God grew tired of the sins of man and granted them even a more limited lifespan.

    The Spirit can not work with the mortal body but requires an  immortal body that is not subject to frustration.

    #294426
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Really?
    You have personal interpretations.
    The Spirit lived in the man Jesus and in the apostles and can live in your mortal body.

    Rom 8

    #294428
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick, agreed!

    Romans 8:16-19 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him,
    that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
    worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of
    the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the “sons of God.”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #294436
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 24 2012,14:09)
    Hi Nick, agreed!

    Romans 8:16-19 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him,
    that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
    worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of
    the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the “sons of God.”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    this is only true ;if we have the truth of God in us .if not how can ;;The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    MT 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

    MT 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

    #294443
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 24 2012,08:13)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 24 2012,14:09)
    Hi Nick, agreed!

    Romans 8:16-19 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him,
    that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
    worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of
    the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the “sons of God.”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    this is only true ;if we have the truth of God in us .if not how can ;;The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    MT 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

    MT 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


    PIERRE, STOP FIGHTING THE BRETHREN; no-one made you judge!
    Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some (like Nick)
    also of good will: the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely,” (Phil 1:15)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #294448
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2012,21:45)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Your first premise is faulty, Kerwin.  People who have died no longer “exist”, yet they will come back into existence once again in the resurrection

    Your reasoning…………………


    Kerwin,

    Your post is nothing but fluff.  It seems to have been designed to keep this “conceived” thing going and going and going – because you already know it is the only little string you have to hold on to.

    But your claim that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to have caused an already existing being to be conceived in a human woman's womb is flawed, as nothing is impossible for God.

    Do you have a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing his conception as a human being?  If not, then just say so and stop trying to beat this dead horse.

    #294449
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Your horse died years ago too.
    The natural mind cannot accept the spiritual.

    #294450
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2012,22:10)
    Mike,

    Don't you believe that the apostles were and are in Jesus and God and Jesus and Yahweh was and is in them.  If so then you would believe they were born from above while still in their mortal bodies.


    Kerwin,

    I know that it is popular among Christians to call themselves “born again Christians”.  I know that the general understanding is that we die to sin and are born again in spirit upon accepting Jesus as our Savior.  

    But read John 3 again.  Jesus is speaking of the future, and how those born of flesh are [ALWAYS] flesh, and those of flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.   The Kingdom of God is in heaven, and flesh cannot enter into it.  Those who will be chosen to enter into it will be born again from above, and not consist of flesh, but of spirit and water.

    And while some of Jesus' disciples may already be with him in heaven, having been born again of spirit and water, no flesh person on earth is “born again” in the sense Jesus meant it.

    The can be “born anew” in the sense that Peter meant it.  But in the sense Jesus meant it, flesh was not a part of the deal.  So like I told Nick:  If you consist of flesh, then you have not yet been born again from above.

    #294452
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You say
    “Kerwin,

    I know that it is popular among Christians to call themselves “born again Christians”. I know that the general understanding is that we die to sin and are born again in spirit upon accepting Jesus as our Savior.

    WHERE IS THIS SHOWN AS A WAY OF SALVATION?

    But read John 3 again. Jesus is speaking of the future, and how those born of flesh are [ALWAYS] flesh, and those of flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is in heaven, and flesh cannot enter into it. Those who will be chosen to enter into it will be born again from above, and not consist of flesh, but of spirit and water.

    YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND REBIRTH FROM ABOVE?

    And while some of Jesus' disciples may already be with him in heaven, having been born again of spirit and water, no flesh person on earth is “born again” in the sense Jesus meant it.

    MAY BE??
    THERE IS NO DIVISION IN CHRIST
    ALL IN CHRIST ARE OR NONE ARE SAVED
    .
    BUT NONE ARE IN HEAVEN

    The can be “born anew” in the sense that Peter meant it. But in the sense Jesus meant it, flesh was not a part of the deal. So like I told Nick: If you consist of flesh, then you have not yet been born again from above.

    YOU QUOTE YOURSELF.
    ARE YOU A SUITABLE PERSON TO QUOTE?

    #294455
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    I shot down two of your unscriptural sources last night.  You and Nick must have been too busy “owning me” to respond to my rebuttals?  :)

    Let me refresh your mind:

    Your source claimed that since manna didn't literally come down from heaven, then neither did Jesus.  But manna is called “the bread of angels”.  Do angels come to the wilderness and dig it up out of the earth?  Has there ever been another time when honey flavored breadstuff manifested itself out of the ground?  Has science discovered this “manna” hiding underground in the wilderness anywhere on earth?

    Or could it be that God truly and literally sent this bread down from heaven?

    The bottom line is that your source's whole theory relies on manna not literally coming down from heaven.  How can they prove that?  And if they can't, then their whole theory goes out the window, doesn't it?

    Also, did you notice that these guys are desparately reaching for anything at all to cause “reasonable doubt” as to what Jesus' words meant.  They KNOW he said he came down from heaven, but they simply don't WANT TO accept this, because they've already made up their minds that he didn't.  And so instead of accepting what the clear words of their Lord actually say, they go searching for ANYTHING that can remotely cast a shadow of doubt.

    They fell way short with the manna thing.  And since manna did literally come down from heaven, do you think your source will now accept Jesus' words when he says he came down from heaven? Will you?

    #294457
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You will eventually see deeper things.

    But first you must be born again.
    Then you can see the kingdom

    #294460
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,16:36)
    WHERE IS THIS SHOWN AS A WAY OF SALVATION?


    Believing in the name of God's only begotten Son.  (John 3)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,16:36)
    YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND REBIRTH FROM ABOVE?


    I understand that you and many like you think it refers to receiving Holy Spirit and living your flesh life on earth in a way pleasing to God.  That is not what it means, though.  Jesus spoke of the resurrection, and told Nicodemus the same thing Paul told the Corinthians – flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.  Those resurrected to the Kingdom of God will have new, glorious, spiritual bodies like the one Jesus now has.

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,16:36)
    MAY BE??
    THERE IS NO DIVISION IN CHRIST
    ALL IN CHRIST ARE OR NONE ARE SAVED


    Matthew 16:28
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

    The word is “some”, not “all”, Nick.  Some of his disciples WOULD taste death, meaning they await the resurrection from Hades with almost everyone else who has died; and some of his disciples WOULD NOT taste death, meaning that some were changed in the twinkling of an eye.  They were born again from above of spirit and water as the life ran out of their flesh bodies, and taken immediately to God's Kingdom in heaven.  Those are the souls under the alter in Revelation – those killed directly for honoring God and His Son.

    All others await the resurrection from Hades, where they are most likely conscious of nothing at all right now.

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,16:36)
    YOU QUOTE YOURSELF.
    ARE YOU A SUITABLE PERSON TO QUOTE?


    I speak of 1 Peter 1:23, where Peter uses a word that means, according to NETNotes:  2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

    It is this definition that most think of when they think of “born again”.  This is NOT the meaning of Jesus' words to Nicodemus.  Jesus spoke of LITERALLY being born again of water and spirit, and consisting of flesh no longer.

    Have I spoken against scripture, Nick?

    #294464
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,09:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2012,22:10)
    Mike,

    Don't you believe that the apostles were and are in Jesus and God and Jesus and Yahweh was and is in them.  If so then you would believe they were born from above while still in their mortal bodies.


    Kerwin,

    I know that it is popular among Christians to call themselves “born again Christians”.  I know that the general understanding is that we die to sin and are born again in spirit upon accepting Jesus as our Savior.  

    But read John 3 again.  Jesus is speaking of the future, and how those born of flesh are [ALWAYS] flesh, and those of flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.   The Kingdom of God is in heaven, and flesh cannot enter into it.  Those who will be chosen to enter into it will be born again from above, and not consist of flesh, but of spirit and water.

    And while some of Jesus' disciples may already be with him in heaven, having been born again of spirit and water, no flesh person on earth is “born again” in the sense Jesus meant it.

    The can be “born anew” in the sense that Peter meant it.  But in the sense Jesus meant it, flesh was not a part of the deal.  So like I told Nick:  If you consist of flesh, then you have not yet been born again from above.


    Hi Mike,

    Satan has blinded many, so that they miss Romans 8:9 in their understanding
    of where the “God's Kingdom” is… (see Luke 17:21 and also Romans 14:17)

    “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
    that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” (Romans 8:9)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #294466
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ April 23 2012,17:16)
    “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
    that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” (Romans 8:9)


    And were they LITERALLY not in the flesh anymore, Ed? Or was that a metaphorical way of speaking, like Peter saying they were “born anew”?

    Jesus and Paul both taught that flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is in heaven, with Jesus presiding over it for the time being.

    #294467
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 24 2012,16:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 24 2012,08:13)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 24 2012,14:09)
    Hi Nick, agreed!

    Romans 8:16-19 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him,
    that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
    worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of
    the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the “sons of God.”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    this is only true ;if we have the truth of God in us .if not how can ;;The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the “Children of God:”

    MT 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

    MT 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


    PIERRE, STOP FIGHTING THE BRETHREN; no-one made you judge!
    Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some (like Nick)
    also of good will: the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely,” (Phil 1:15)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    I did not judge you or any body else,I just bring to light the scriptures that could help to understand the truth not opinions

    I you were my brother you would not teache me lies (untruths) in scriptures ,we are definetly not belong to the same spirit ,we may use the same scriptures,just like the Jews in Jesus time religion leaders, but well you know they did not share the spirit that Christ had right ????

    no difference today

    #294480
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,04:18)

    Kerwin,

    Your post is nothing but fluff.  It seems to have been designed to keep this “conceived” thing going and going and going – because you already know it is the only little string you have to hold on to.

    But your claim that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to have caused an already existing being to be conceived in a human woman's womb is flawed, as nothing is impossible for God.

    Do you have a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing his conception as a human being?  If not, then just say so and stop trying to beat this dead horse.


    Mike,

    I demonstrated my reasoning.   Why have you stopped using reason and instead insisted that I am wrong based on your own word.  Is it because you have run out reasons to hold to you tenet and never the less wish to hold to it?

    It is very simple a being only comes to exist once and Scripture testifies both John the Baptist and Jesus came into existence within their respective mother's inner parts.

    You also seem confused by the fact that Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus.  It is simple as God lives in Jesus through his Spirit and Jesus lives in God the same Spirit; the Spirit that comes from above.  The Word is God and dwells in Jesus and Jesus dwells in the Word, which is God.

    Jesus comes from above because God lives in him and thinks, speaks, and acts through him.  Jesus was in heaven even as he was on earth because he lives in God.

    Why don't you believe that God is in him and he is in God?

    #294483
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,05:27)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 23 2012,17:16)
    “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
    that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” (Romans 8:9)


    And were they LITERALLY not in the flesh anymore, Ed?  Or was that a metaphorical way of speaking, like Peter saying they were “born anew”?

    Jesus and Paul both taught that flesh cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.  That Kingdom is in heaven, with Jesus presiding over it for the time being.


    Mike,

    Neither taught what you say; the Gnostics did.

    The mortal body cannot inherit the world to come for creation will all be freed from corruption. That is what Scripture teaches.

    #294493
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2012,18:47)
    It is very simple a being only comes to exist once and Scripture testifies both John the Baptist and Jesus came into existence within their respective mother's inner parts.


    Kerwin,

    There are MANY scriptures that contradict what you say.  Phil 2:6 DIRECTLY contradicts your claims by telling of an existence Jesus was having before he emptied himself and was made into the likeness of men.

    You are continually confusing “conceived” with “origin of ANY being”.  But “conceived” refers to beings that are born in wombs.  It speaks NOTHING about a being who already existed in a different form.

    What you claim is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to right now cause Gabriel to be conceived in a human woman's womb, and to be born of that woman as a human being.  You would seriously choose to argue that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for God to do such a thing?  

    When you actually STATED in your own words about it being IMPOSSIBLE for God, I about fell out of my chair.

    Listen Kerwin, NOTHING is impossible for God.  God can raised up children for Abraham from STONES.  And He could do that by means of causing them to be conceived in, and born from the womb of a human woman if He wanted to.

    Your position is not only weak and flawed, but it calls for YOU to start telling us what is and isn't POSSIBLE for God Almighty.  Let it go, Kerwin.  Concentrate on finding a SINGLE scripture that PROHIBITS the pre-existence of Jesus.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2012,18:47)
    You also seem confused by the fact that Jesus is in God…………..


    No, no, no.  We won't be playing the “diversion game” this time.

    The project is for you to produce ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that would either prohibit Jesus from pre-existing, or make it abundantly clear that he was never anything other than a human being.

    (Btw, I have invited you to partake in a question in the “Fruit of Doctrine” thread if you have the time.  The question should be on the last page of the thread – and I've listed you by name for easy reference.)

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