John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 541 through 560 (of 25,993 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #53858
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:14)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,08:25)
    Hi W,
    You say

    “”If” they saw God it would be the Word/Yeshua!”

    Is this logic equal to scriptural revelation?


    NH

    There you go again. Deny the very words of God before you.

    You should cry out to God and ask him to open your eyes to the truth.

    Yeshua pre-existed his birth and was seen many times in the Hebrew scriptures. Moses wrote about him.

    :O


    Hi W,
    Abide in what is written.
    It is of faith.
    Abhor presumption.
    It is not.

    #53859

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:16)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,08:24)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:47)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,07:35)
    Hi W,
    You should rather abide in scripture and not listen to strangers who have no knowledge of the way of truth and instead worship greek logic and inference. Neither should you tolerate additions to the scripture as that is how we show our love for these precious words and for the God Who wrote them through men.


    NH

    Same back to you!

    So tell me how you came to the conclusion that John 12:41 is not found in none of the manuscripts?

    So it like John 1:1 is not part of your doctrine right?

    ???


    Hi W,
    Jn 12.41 is in all the manuscripts.
    But the name of JESUS is not found written there in any of them.
    Can you find it for us?


    MH

    Again you do err, for clearly John the Apostle in the context is speaking of Yeshua and ascribing the fulfillment of Isaiahs prophesy to him.

    You have the blinders on again NH.

    :O


    Hi W,
    It may be obvious to those wearing trinity glasses but nonetheless it is not written as such and we should not use logic and presume truth.


    NH

    It is written but only revealed to those who will search the scriptures and draw out of them the wonderful hidden truths that can only be seen by the Spirit of truth.

    However any honest person could read John 12 and see the context is speaking of Jesus and that John obviously is ascribing the prophesy of Isaiah to Jesus.

    :O

    #53860
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.

    #53861

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O

    #53862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    I do not know much, but I do know where truth is to be found-in scripture and not the scholarly musings of men.

    #53863
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,04:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    And embrace something that is not taught in scripture, namely the Trinity. Is that your message?

    :)

    #53864
    942767
    Participant

    Quote
    Posted: May 28 2007,18:13  

    ——————————————————————————–
    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,03:22)
    Hi WJ:

    Quote  
    So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
    down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

    I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood.  And so, we are in agreement on this point.

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?

    Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

    God Bless

    94

    No I don’t think we agree. Are you saying that Jesus meant we eat physically of his flesh and drink his blood?

    While physically Jesus Body and blood was the atonement for our sins, when Jesus ate the last supper with them the wine and the bread was a type of his broken body and his shed blood which he said this do in remembrance of me.

    The Bread from heaven is a “spiritual” bread, which are the words that he “The Word” spoke.

    Jn 6:35
    And Jesus said unto them, *I am the bread of life*: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Jesus said he is the bread and coming to him would mean you never hunger!

    How?

    Jn 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; *the flesh profiteth nothing*: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    He is trying to tell them he is not literally speaking of his body and blood, but his “words of life”, for they are Spirit and life.

    Peter got it, “thou hast the words of eternal life”.

    WJ:  I know that Jesus was not referring to “eating his flesh and drinking his blood literally” but that he was talking about eating his Word and so I agree with what you are saying here.

    But then you say:

    Quote
    This is not about his physical Body. So his natural birth is not even pertinent to Jesus coming down from heaven or returning back to where he was[QUOTE]

    I disagree with you on this point.  He spoke of drinking his blood which we know is not literal, but it is the remedy for sin.  Also, he ascended into heaven in his body after he had shed his blood and had risen from the dead, and so why would you say it was not pertinent to his coming down from heaven or returning back to heaven?

    [QUOTE]1 Cor 15: YLT
    45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
    46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

    And by the above scripture are you saying that Jesus was already perfected when he came into the world?  What about Hebrews 5:8-9 which states:5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;  

    You ask:

    94! Based on my previous post, do you believe the translators or the Apostle John with over 40 pronouns ascribed to Jesus in Jn 1, did not believe in the pre-existent of Christ?

    And by what basis would you change the translations to reflect such?

    And my response is that I have not changed any of the scripture at all but I did use a definition in Stong's concordance for the word Logos.  I don't believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person before he was born of a virgin.  I know that I am not a scholar and I respect all the work that they did in translating the scriptures from the original language into English so that I can understand the scriptures, but when I have a question about something in the scriptures, I go to God and ask Him for understanding, and so I am not limited because I am not a scholar.  God answers my prayers.

    And you ask:

    Also based on Col 1:16, and 17 and the above I Cor 15:45-47, do you believe the Apostle Paul believed Jesus was just a thought or plan before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh?

    I believe that God made every thing that he made with Jesus and we who are his disciples in mind.  He is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him.

    Hebrews 1      
    1:1
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

    God Bless

    #53865
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)
    94

    You say…

    Quote

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?


    There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh.

    Dan 3:25 just one example…

    He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

    http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

    Blessings

    :)


    Hi WJ:

    And so, you are saying by the above statement and scripture that Jesus already had a body before he was born of  the virgin Mary?

    #53866

    Quote (t8 @ May 29 2007,09:56)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,04:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    And embrace the Trinity right?

    :D


    t8

    HMMM???

    Do you also believe that Jesus was born again, and that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved?

    ???

    Yes absolutly throw out such and accept the God of the scriptures who you say “Lord Lord”, calling him your Lord and master, and yet denying him as the “Lord” from heaven, the Word that was with God and is God.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!

    So it is written!  :O

    #53867
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Where is this written?
    Millions would love to see what you have apparently found.

    #53869
    Not3in1
    Participant

    :O   Is this the TRINITY smiley face (3 eyes/one face)?  WJ likes to use it a lot.

    I'm only teasing you, WJ.  I'm looking up those scriptures for you now on which versions say Jesus is God and which ones do not with the same verse.

    #53871
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:52)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:33)
    Nick, thanks for pointing out that other versions can either justify our claims or they can shut them down.  We see what we want to see, sometimes.  We see what we pray is there…..  I am guilty of this as well.  We all have various glasses that we put on from time to time.  Each version, it seems, has it's own unique set of translators on board.  How else could some scriptures be seen as Jesus is God and others say no such thing?


    not3

    What scriptures that says Jesus is God and others say no such thing?

    Could you give me an example?

    ???


    This is not an exhaustive list, of course; my library is only so big.

    John 1:1
    The following say Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, NEB, TEV, NIV
    The following say Jesus is not God:
    Goodspeed, NWT

    John 1:18
    Jesus is God:
    NEBmg, TEV, NIV, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEVmg, NIVmg, MLB, NWT

    Acts 20:28
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, TEV, NWT

    Romans 9:5
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, NIV, MLB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEV, NWT, NASB

    2 Thess. 1:12
    Jesus is God:
    NIVmg
    Jesus is not God:
    All others

    Titus 2:13
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Goodspeed, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, NWT

    Heb. 1:8
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NWT

    2 Peter 1:1
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, NWT

    Mg = margin

    For me, there is enough proof here to doubt these “proof” texts. If these translator's cannot agree…….

    #53872
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    Hi W,
    Do you have quotes for these?
    Please be at least accurate in your accusations.

    1.Christ was anointed with the Spirit. He was reborn from above. We follow him.[Jn1, Rom1, Rom 8, Acts 10]
    2.Scripture says the Word was God. [Jn1]We should not teach beyond what is revealed.
    3.Not so. God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25. We preach the way of Christ as servants obey their master.

    #53874
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,10:42)
    God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25.


    How can others be saved? There is only one name given under heaven by which we can be saved; no?

    #53881
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,10:54)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,10:42)
    God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25.


    How can others be saved?  There is only one name given under heaven by which we can be saved; no?


    Hi Nick:

    What about the following scripture?

    14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    #53882
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Those who God calls sheep are sheep.

    #53884
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:42)
    Hi 94,
    Those who God calls sheep are sheep.


    Hi Nick:

    What about the following scripture then?

    John 10
    10:1
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold *, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    10:2
    But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    10:3
    To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    10:4
    And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    10:5
    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    10:6
    This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
    10:7
    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you *, I am the door of the sheep.
    10:8
    All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    10:9
    I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
    10:10
    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
    10:11
    I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    10:12
    But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    10:13
    The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
    10:14
    I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    10:15
    As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    10:16
    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    #53885
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Nick:

    Just realized we are getting off on another tangent. This is the John 1:1 thread.

    #53886
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25

    #53888
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:54)
    Hi 94,
    The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25


    No Nick:

    The last verse of the scripture that I quoted refers to the sheep that would follow Jesus from the gentile nations. You can not be a sheep unless you follow the Shepherd.

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