John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #51239
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    We can have our own thoughts and opinions but we dare not teach them as truth unless we find it written. Trinity is not written. It should not be taught by those who fear God.

    #51240

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,21:41)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,10:14)
    Hi W,
    God is a spirit being. Do you do agree God has a Spirit? He speaks of it often.

    Jl 2
    ” 28 “And afterward,
          I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
          Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
          your old men will dream dreams,
          your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
          I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    So God is speaking here of HIS Spirit which He POURS OUT-From where?

    Did you think God's own spirit was a separate entity from God Himself ? What a bizarre thought. we are told about God and His Spirit and how they relate in a similar way to us in 1 cor 2

    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    James 2 says about life and spirit relate with us.
    26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So if you think God does not have a spirit then how are we made in His image?


    NH

    No I dont believe God is Spirit who has a Spirit.

    Where is this written!

    There is “One Spirit”!

    :O


    Hi W,
    Is the ONE Spirit the Spirit of God?
    Is this the ONE SPIRIT that filled Christ?
    So does the ONE SPIRIT also include Christ?
    Is Christ the man filled also with himself as Spirit?
    Is this ONE Spirit a person in God?
    Is this person in God also the Spirit of God?
    Was Christ filled with three as one Spirit?
    That makes four.


    NH

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that *the Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
    10 And *if Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but *the Spirit is life* because of righteousness.
    11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies *by his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

    1 Cor 12:13
    For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*.

    1 Cor 12:11
    But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit*, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Eph 4:4
    There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Do you see more than One Spirit in these verses?

    Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.

    NH. Since you and your friend t8 like to quote other early Fathers of the faith.

    How about these words from Ignatius which was a disciple of John…

    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

    Chapter VII.—Beware of false teachers.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

    For some are in the habit of *carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile*, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, *even Jesus Christ our Lord*.
    But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For “the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing.”535535 Prov. x. 25, Prov. xi. 3. For “they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,”536536 Isa. lvi. 10 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. *We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537537 Or, “before the ages.” but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538538 John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

    And

    Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

    *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594594 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595595 1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.

    And

    Chapter XIX.—Three celebrated mysteries.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xix.html

    *Hence worldly wisdom became folly*; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law617617 Some read, “bond.” of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man*, and man displaying power as God. But neither was the former a mere imagination,618618 Literally, “opinion.” nor did the second imply a bare h
    umanity;619619 Literally, “bareness.” but the one was absolutely true,620620 Literally, “truth.” and the other an economical arrangement.621621 Literally, “an economy.” Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God.622622 Or, “that which was perfect received a beginning from God.” Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

    (To the Philippians, II).
    ” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith, “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, *commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, *but into three persons possessed of equal honour* [one name]*. (To the Philippians, II).

    If you notice Ignatius as a desciple of John is a Trinitarian and this is long before the acclaimed Constantine Trinity.

    :O

    #51253
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.

    #51255

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:16)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.


    NH

    You may continue in your doctrine if you like!

    Blessings!

    :)

    #51259

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:16)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.


    NH

    Tell me something!

    If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.

    Would that be enough?

    Why do you make these foolish arguments that truth is not found in scripture unless there is an exact verse for it.

    You are being hypocritical because you have formed doctrine of your own by piecing scriptures together.

    Is it because you can not scripturally refute the truth being spoken so this is the only response that you have?

    I think it is!

    Tell me in all sincerity NH, if all the doctrine that you have and believe and defend has an unambiguous scripture that says it? Whithout pieces of scriptures to form your truth?

    Is all of your doctrine like this?

    If not then stop being a hypocrite!

    ???

    #51260
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Why not repent of man's added doctrines and abide in the word of Christ?

    #51262
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,21:41)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,10:14)
    Hi W,
    God is a spirit being. Do you do agree God has a Spirit? He speaks of it often.

    Jl 2
    ” 28 “And afterward,
          I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
          Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
          your old men will dream dreams,
          your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
          I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    So God is speaking here of HIS Spirit which He POURS OUT-From where?

    Did you think God's own spirit was a separate entity from God Himself ? What a bizarre thought. we are told about God and His Spirit and how they relate in a similar way to us in 1 cor 2

    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    James 2 says about life and spirit relate with us.
    26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So if you think God does not have a spirit then how are we made in His image?


    NH

    No I dont believe God is Spirit who has a Spirit.

    Where is this written!

    There is “One Spirit”!

    :O


    Hi W,
    Is the ONE Spirit the Spirit of God?
    Is this the ONE SPIRIT that filled Christ?
    So does the ONE SPIRIT also include Christ?
    Is Christ the man filled also with himself as Spirit?
    Is this ONE Spirit a person in God?
    Is this person in God also the Spirit of God?
    Was Christ filled with three as one Spirit?
    That makes four.


    NH

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that *the Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
    10 And *if Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but *the Spirit is life* because of righteousness.
    11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies *by his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

    1 Cor 12:13
    For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*.

    1 Cor 12:11
    But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit*, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Eph 4:4
    There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Do you see more than One Spirit in these verses?

    Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.

    NH. Since you and your friend t8 like to quote other early Fathers of the faith.

    How about these words from Ignatius which was a disciple of John…

    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

    Chapter VII.—Beware of false teachers.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

    For some are in the habit of *carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile*, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, *even Jesus Christ our Lord*.
    But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For “the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing.”535535 Prov. x. 25, Prov. xi. 3. For “they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,”536536 Isa. lvi. 10 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. *We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537537 Or, “before the ages.” but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538538 John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

    And

    Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

    *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594594 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595595 1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.

    And

    Chapter XIX.—Three celebrated mysteries.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xix.html

    *Hence worldly wisdom became folly*; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law617617 Some read, “bond.” of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was
    dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man*, and man displaying power as God. But neither was the former a mere imagination,618618 Literally, “opinion.” nor did the second imply a bare humanity;619619 Literally, “bareness.” but the one was absolutely true,620620 Literally, “truth.” and the other an economical arrangement.621621 Literally, “an economy.” Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God.622622 Or, “that which was perfect received a beginning from God.” Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

    (To the Philippians, II).
    ” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith, “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, *commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, *but into three persons possessed of equal honour* [one name]*. (To the Philippians, II).

    If you notice Ignatius as a desciple of John is a Trinitarian and this is long before the acclaimed Constantine Trinity.

    :O


    How is the Spirit of God a separate person?

    Just want to know. Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person. My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?

    #51263
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

    #51264

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:34)
    Hi W,
    Why not repent of man's added doctrines and abide in the word of Christ?


    NH

    You didnt answer the question?

    Now you say repent of mans added doctrine.

    Then you should repent also.

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    Should I go on?

    :O

    #51265
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:53)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.


    Wasn't He speaking of His GREAT sacrifice? His Father's command was done?

    #51266
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?

    #51269
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:53)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.


    Wasn't He speaking of His GREAT sacrifice?  His Father's command was done?


    Has the last enemy been defeated?

    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, “TILL” he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    #51270
    kenrch
    Participant

    :D

    #51279

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:59)
    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?


    NH

    Why do you point the finger at me when you believe the following!

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    You have three fingers pointing back at your self!

    :O

    #51285
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi w,
    God has a finger, the Spirit, and Christ worked by that finger.
    For US there is ONE God, not three.

    #51330
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,11:01)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:59)
    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?


    NH

    Why do you point the finger at me when you believe the following!

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    You have three fingers pointing back at your self!

    :O


    Well done WJ :)

    #51332
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:49)
    Just want to know.  Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person.  My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?


    Hi Kenrch

    I know we've had this conversation before, and I hope you don't mind me replying to your question, but if the Holy Spirit wasn't an identity in His own right, how could the following apply?

    The Father sent Him Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    He is identified by Jesus as “He” (as above)

    The fruit are attributed to Him Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,

    and gifts 1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    I remember you sharing with me your revelation Kenrch, but as much as I like and respect you, Scripture seems to show me differently.

    Blessings

    #51335
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    You quote.
    ” 1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    Do you think that verse 6 compared with the other verses shows that the Words
    “spirit” and “God ”
    in this context are interchangeable?

    If so what reason would you have for saying the Spirit is another person from God[the Father]

    #51343
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 03 2007,17:45)

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:49)
    Just want to know.  Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person.  My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?


    Hi Kenrch

    I know we've had this conversation before, and I hope you don't mind me replying to your question, but if the Holy Spirit wasn't an identity in His own right, how could the following apply?

    The Father sent Him Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    He is identified by Jesus as “He” (as above)

    The fruit are attributed to Him  Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,  

    and gifts   1Co 12:4  But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5  And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6  And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7  But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8  For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    I remember you sharing with me your revelation Kenrch, but as much as I like and respect you, Scripture seems to show me differently.

    Blessings


    Oxy If I'm not mistaken you believe that the Father is greater than the Son and I suppose that the Son is greater than the Holy Spirit. Is that right?

    If that is the case then you don't believe in the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine states three EQUAL persons in one. Seems that the Lord is trying to show you about the Trinity but you refuse to let go and just changed it so you wouldn't have to let the tradition go.

    Oxy did you give your child a name? What a foolish question! Of course you did. Then why would Not God give a third person a name. He named His Son, He has a name. So why would He not give the third person a name of HIS own? Holy Spirit is not the Spirit's name that's what He is.

    The Holy Spirit IS Jehovah. The apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus had the Spirit without measure. You baptize in the name of Jesus then you baptize in the name of the Father and if the Father then the Holy Spirit as well.

    In luke 10:21 The Holy Spirit filled Jesus and He began to speak to the Father Because the Father was there Jesus knew who the Holy Spirit was and IS. He is the Father!

    Luk 10:21 At that time Jesus was filled with joy by the Holy Spirit and said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned. Yes, Father, this was how you were pleased to have it happen.

    We cannot receive the Holy Spirit without Jesus because He paid for our sins. Therefore the Spirit is sent in His Name.

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    We are God's children just as Jesus is God's first born!
    Jesus is not my Father He is my Brother.

    Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
    Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

    Scripture says Jesus is the First born among MANY BROTHERS. That's us, the many brothers. Where does it say that Jesus is our Father? Jesus said to pray to OUR Father in heaven.

    We are as Jesus. That's what we are supposed be “as Jesus” a child of God.

    If you didn't have the Holy Spirit then you would not have any of your Father in heaven. If you had none of the Father then He would not be your Father.
    Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit! Didn't Jesus' Father have a NAME?

    You understand that God is a Spirit? Then believe God IS the Spirit.
    We have a spirit but we cannot send our spirit as God can to influence other people. We must physically speak. One day we won't need a tongue! God will be all in all! God is in some NOW! But the time will soon be here when everyone will have God.

    HE:

    G1565
    ἐκεῖνος
    ekeinos
    ek-i'-nos
    From G1563; that one (or [neuter] thing); often intensified by the article prefixed: – he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those. See also G3778.

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    #51361
    Oxy
    Participant

    It is true that my use of the word trinity is in error if trinity means 3 equal, because as you say, that is not my belief. Having said that, I do believe in the oneness of the three.

    I do not agree with you my friend, that the Holy Spirit and the father are one and the same. I have spent considerable time searching the Scripture and have asked the Lord, and all that I have seen/heard still points to the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, but He is not the Father of Jesus. He is Himself, a third part of God.

    Blessings

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