John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,201 through 3,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #148163
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    WJ…….According to Jeff Benner, a Hebrew Scholar the word GOD was view by the ancient Hebrews as a uni-Plural word meaning POWERS. It's originally pictorial symbol, was the head of an OX with a STAFF, the Ox symbol was the prime symbol for Power, and the Staff was what they leaned on for support. This was to them the symbol of the GOD of ISREAL. He was the POWER they LEANED on or TRUSTED IN. And if you takes this and apply it to Scriptures you can easily see how it fits. GOD the FATHER is the true POWER we and Jesus Lean or trust IN. Now if you apply this with the understanding that (ALL) POWERS came into existence by the ONE true POWER and was given from HIM to HIS CREATION, everything falls into place. WE are God's as Well as Jesus, but there is still (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD were we derived our POWERS. When scripture speaks of false God's it is referencing Objects of Worship other than the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, not the fact that men are Gods and Sons of GOD, but putting something in HIS EXCLUSIVE PLACE IN OUR LIVES> WJ in John 1:1……> it could be read in the beginning was the word (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD (POWERS) and WAS POWERS. This is what created everything in existence in the beginning and distribute different POWERS to His creation. IT was the ONE ONLY (TRUE) GOD (POWER) as Jesus SAID.

    more goo goo ga ga

    thinker

    #148164
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 30 2009,15:08)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2009,07:39)
    T8…quote
    Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.

    Now look what God gave Christ.

    Acts 2:36
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.

    This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.

    Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.

    It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.

    We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.

    If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.


    T8………good post i see it that way to.

    gene


    t8,
    Having Gene in your corner must be quite reassuring.

    thinker

    #148173
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    Why are you arguing with Gene? Most of his ideas are of gnosticism but so is trinity.

    #148174
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    So the mother of God preexisted God?

    #148193
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:04)
    Hi TT,
    Why are you arguing with Gene? Most of his ideas are of gnosticism but so is trinity.


    Nick,
    You clearly are not informed. Gnosticism is the ememy of Trinitarians. Gnosticism and Arianism are a perfect marriage.
    thinker

    #148194
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28)
    Thinker,

    I need to make a very important correction.  The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).

    Carry on.


    An even bigger correction should be pointed out.

    God doesn't have a mother.
    God is the Father of all and has no source.
    That is why he is called the Father.

    The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.


    Jesus is God.  And He has a mother.

    Jesus created His mother.

    Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.  Jesus was God in her womb.  God was born.

    Great is the mystery of Godliness.  God was manifested in the flesh.

    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.  And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.  

    Go ahead.  You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon)  I'll stick with holy tradition.


    Hi CA:

    Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?

    This is true because the Pope said that it is.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #148195

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16)
    Hi CA,
    So the mother of God preexisted God?


    IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions. But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:

    NO

    #148196

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 02 2009,11:11)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28)
    Thinker,

    I need to make a very important correction.  The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).

    Carry on.


    An even bigger correction should be pointed out.

    God doesn't have a mother.
    God is the Father of all and has no source.
    That is why he is called the Father.

    The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.


    Jesus is God.  And He has a mother.

    Jesus created His mother.

    Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.  Jesus was God in her womb.  God was born.

    Great is the mystery of Godliness.  God was manifested in the flesh.

    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.  And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.  

    Go ahead.  You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon)  I'll stick with holy tradition.


    Hi CA:

    Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?

    This is true because the Pope said that it is.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Holy Written and Oral Tradition.

    #148197

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 01 2009,17:28)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28)
    Thinker,

    I need to make a very important correction.  The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).

    Carry on.


    An even bigger correction should be pointed out.

    God doesn't have a mother.
    God is the Father of all and has no source.
    That is why he is called the Father.

    The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.


    Jesus is God.  And He has a mother.

    Jesus created His mother.

    Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.  Jesus was God in her womb.  God was born.

    Great is the mystery of Godliness.  God was manifested in the flesh.

    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.  And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.  

    Go ahead.  You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon)  I'll stick with holy tradition.


    CA,

    What happend to reason and logic?

    What you are proposing is against both, imo.

    Love,
    Mandy


    I don't get you there. What I wrote was perfectly reasonable and logical. Want to try and ask me something like, “When you say X, do you mean A or B”? Seek to understand what I say. Don't assume you already know. What about what I have written is illogical? You lost me. I knew this would send everyone into a fury. But I did it for a reason….to provoke thought and discussion. Here are my statements enumerated for you to question me about:

    1. Jesus is God.

    2. And He has a mother.

    3. Jesus created His mother.

    4. Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.

    5. Jesus was God in her womb.

    6. God was born.

    7. Great is the mystery of Godliness.

    8. God was manifested in the flesh.

    9. The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.

    10. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.

    #148206
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    Fury?
    Fits of laughter.

    #148209
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 02 2009,11:11)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28)
    Thinker,

    I need to make a very important correction.  The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).

    Carry on.


    An even bigger correction should be pointed out.

    God doesn't have a mother.
    God is the Father of all and has no source.
    That is why he is called the Father.

    The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.


    Jesus is God.  And He has a mother.

    Jesus created His mother.

    Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.  Jesus was God in her womb.  God was born.

    Great is the mystery of Godliness.  God was manifested in the flesh.

    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.  And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.  

    Go ahead.  You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon)  I'll stick with holy tradition.


    Hi CA:

    Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?

    This is true because the Pope said that it is.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Holy Written and Oral Tradition.


    Hi CA:

    Quote
    Pro 30:5 ¶ Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
    Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    This is what God revealed to the church relative to Jesus:

    Quote
    Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    You quote the following scripture:

    Quote
    1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God. God does not have to be justified in the Spirit.

    This is the way the NLT paraphrases these scriptures:

    Quote
    1Ti 3:16 Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ [fn] appeared in the flesh and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit. [fn] He was seen by angels and was announced to the nations. He was believed on in the world and was taken up into heaven. [fn]

    And they add the following footnote:

    Quote
    3:16) Greek Who; some manuscripts read God

    Also,

    Quote
    2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Quote
    Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #148228
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Marty said:

    Quote
    These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God.

    Marty,
    By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that  Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.  ???

    thinker

    #148229
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    So are all sons of God, God?
    Men, angels, judges??

    #148234
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)
    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15


    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.

    #148235
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16)
    Hi CA,
    So the mother of God preexisted God?


    IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions. But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:

    NO


    CA, it is obvious that Mary is the mother of Jesus humanity.

    It is of the anti-christ spirit to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

    Making Mary out to be the Mother of God is not only really silly, but quite offensive.

    God is the source of all and the Most High.

    There is no mother/source/father for God. There is no cause for God. There is no higher than the Most High.

    #148237
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,13:37)
    Marty said:

    Quote
    These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God.

    Marty,
    By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that  Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.  ???

    thinker


    Hi thethinker:

    No, I don't see how what I have said about 1 Ti 3:15 has anything to do with the scriptures that Jesus is the son of Man.

    He is the Son of God and the son of man. He is not just any man, but nevertheless, he is a man, and as a man, he was justified in the Spirit having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.

    If I have said something that is not the truth, show me by the scriptures that what I have said is not true so that I can be corrected.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #148244

    Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,13:37)
    Marty said:

    Quote
    These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God.

    Marty,
    By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that  Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.  ???

    thinker


    But for him, logic has nothing to do with it. Whatever he feels or thinks he hears is true whether it is compatible with reason or not…at least this is what I gather.

    #148245

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2009,14:28)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40)
    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15


    The concept of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.


    Let's agree to disagree.

    You think that the devil is the “original” party here.

    I think God is the “original” party and the devil is a sorry excuse for a copycat.

    #148246

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2009,14:44)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16)
    Hi CA,
    So the mother of God preexisted God?


    IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions.  But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:

    NO


    CA, it is obvious that Mary is the mother of Jesus humanity.


    A person does not give birth to a nature only, but a whole person. You cannot separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity like the gnostics and later the Arians. This is what we were fighting all of those years ago in the first centuries of the Church. Theotokos (God-bearer) was a statement primarily about the divinity of Christ and secondarily about Mary. Nestorius was accused of wanting to make the distinction you are claiming here. But the two natures of Christ (human and divine) are perfectly united in one Person. Jesus is fully man and fully God. You cannot separate the two in Him.

    Quote
    It is of the anti-christ spirit to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

    So stop entertaining the spirit of antichrist and confess that God came in the flesh.

    Quote
    Making Mary out to be the Mother of God is not only really silly, but quite offensive.

    I'm happy to stand without wavering. I'm not going to budge on this. Jesus was God in Mary's womb. She gave birth to God, the One who created her. The very person through whom she herself was created.

    Quote
    God is the source of all and the Most High.

    There is no mother/source/father for God. There is no cause for God. There is no higher than the Most High.

    Theotokos is NOT a statement of the origination or existence of God. It is a statement about the incarnation.

    If the Protestant gospel started at the incarnation, they would have an easier time understanding the significance and integral part played by Mary.

    #148247
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    And whom do you think the Catholic Church serves?
    Cut off from God and His son she is of the world and her god.

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