John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 301 through 320 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #14275
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    When a father begets a son they do not have the same spirit.

    As I have been saying all along, the lifestream – the life is the same as shown by the name that is carried on to signify the lineage, the bloodline as it were (the life being in the blood)

    Quote
    The spirit of each is utterly individual and separate and returns to God at death.

    Don't forget that death was not in the original picture.

    Quote
    That is why a son is a son and not the result of a propagation of a colony of cells on an agar plate.
    Neither is the Son of God a clone of God, but an image.

    That is right.

    Quote
    Scripture says that the Son was given to have life in himself.

    As any son of any father has – life to produce of himself a family – yet that family is also the father of that son's lineage. Also Adam had life in himself, out of which God took a helpmate – Eve…

    Quote
    Because he is derived from God alone does not mean we should assume he is not a son but a portion of God with no differences between them.

    I did not say he was not a son, he is a son, where did I say he was not a son?

    Quote
    You do not have the spirit of Adam, or even your father but your own surely.

    The life of Adam – which life is the spirit of mortal man that dies because of the curse of the earth. Adam could have come to the tree of life and lived eternally, but this process was interrupted by the transgression and its penalty of death. Because of Adam we sons of God find ourselves in a fallen condition, a sinful nature that is contrary to God. We became sons of Adam and inheritors of his curse.

    #14295
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    So you say the Word is “The Spirit of God in the son of God” and this union was from the beginning? When did this union come about?
    Where is it written?
    Or is it not true union by your definition union between two beings?
    Is not the definition of a being is that it has life in itself?
    Do not two beings have to each have a spirit of their own?
    Did the Son ever have independant life at all?
    Did he never have his own spirit but only the Spirit of God?
    Was his life always shared life?
    Does God not give without repentance?
    Did the Son never really have choices?

    If he was always sharing the Spirit of God with the Father was he ever a true son and was the Father ever a true father?

    #14309
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    So you say the Word is “The Spirit of God in the son of God” and this union was from the beginning? When did this union come about?

    No, that is not what I am saying.
    I am saying that:

    1: like begets like (Gen 1:11)
    Jesus the Son of God is Word.
    God is Word.

    2: what we have revealed by God in His Word is – Father and Son. (2 Jn 9)
    So that is what I see – Father (God) Eternal – Immortal – Invisible – Only Wise (1 Tim 1:17)
    And His begotten Son – the visible image of the invisible God. (Col 1:15)

    3: God indwelled the Son, the son who is Word, has the life of God to be a Son.
    God indwelling His Son as a tabernacle, a house, a body, a visible form for the invisible God.

    Quote
    Where is it written?
    Or is it not true union by your definition union between two beings?

    The unity is that spoken of in Heb 2:11 one life – even as Jesus said he and his Father were one. Not literally one, as in one being, but in a unity of life and of purpose.

    Quote
    Is not the definition of a being is that it has life in itself?

    Do you really think that is what Jesus is saying here – that would be stating the obvious: that His Father is alive and hence he also is alive is a being with life?
    That would seem to me to be a bit of a lame statement to make.

    Quote
    Do not two beings have to each have a spirit of their own?

    Do two human beings both have the life of human being, the spirit of man?

    Quote
    Did the Son ever have independant life at all?

    You are really not understanding what I have been saying I think, the son from his begettal had independent life. If he is the son of God then he is life separate from God. Yet he chose to be subject and dependant upon his Father.

    Quote
    Did he never have his own spirit but only the Spirit of God?

    Once again it is the understanding of lifesource and lifestream that explains this. If a father (the lifesource) has his own life (his own spirit of life) and he has a son then the son (lifestream) has the same kind of life as his father but not to manifest an identical person, the lifestream is a unique individual with the same life of the fathers kind in him (gen 1:11)
    His father's genes are in him.

    Quote
    Was his life always shared life?

    Shared life? God's life – eternal life is what all the members of the family have.

    Quote
    Does God not give without repentance?

    You know the answer to that one – of course not – we need a change of mind – to have a nature change – to be reborn by His Spirit.

    Quote
    Did the Son never really have choices?

    Of course he did, and he proved Genesis 1:11 to be correct, he was true to that life of the Word that was in him, as all sons are.

    #14317
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    Heb 2.10f
    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”

    So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
    2Jn 9
    “Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
    The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]

    #14327
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,11:34)
    Hi Malcolm,
    Heb 2.10f
    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”

    So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
    2Jn 9
    “Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
    The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]


    That scripture tells me he who has the revelation of Jesus Christ has both the Father and the Son. The Revelation of God through His son – shows us Father and Son.

    I agree that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, It is God the Great Spirit who is the Anointer, the Baptizer, the source of Life, is All in All.

    I CORINTHIANS 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1 John 2:5 – whose word is this that we must keep?

    #14331
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    The end view, which will not be complete till the return of Christ and the end of the 1000yr reign, is that God
    “MAY BE all in all”[1Cor 15.28]
    1Jn 1.5
    “This is the message that we have heard from him,and annouce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all”
    Jn 1.4
    “IN HIM was life;and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness;and the darkness did not comprehend it.
    There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. He came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
    He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light
    There was the true light, which coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the World and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him. He came to His own, and those whop were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God..”

    So Christ, the Son of God, anointed by the Spirit of God was sent into the world to be a vessel of the Light Himself. The light was in Christ so Christ too was a light.

    So each verse has to be looked at individually as to whether it is the vessel or the contents it applies to.

    Thus is competely fulfilled too the scripture about John the baptist.
    Lk 1.76f
    “For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways;…….
    .. with which the Sunrise from on high shall visit us to shine upon those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death”

    #14375
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 29 2006,23:58)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,11:34)
    Hi Malcolm,
    Heb 2.10f
    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”

    So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
    2Jn 9
    “Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
    The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]


    That scripture tells me he who has the revelation of Jesus Christ has both the Father and the Son. The Revelation of God through His son – shows us Father and Son.

    I agree that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, It is God the Great Spirit who is the Anointer, the Baptizer, the source of Life, is All in All.

    I CORINTHIANS 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1 John 2:5 – whose word is this that we must keep?


    Hi Malcolm,
    1Jn 2.2f
    “And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous…
    ..The one who says
    'I have come to know Him'
    And does not keep his commanments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him; the one who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same manner as he walked”

    So it is not our opinion that we know Christ that carries any weight. There are many who will call out to him that they know him after the door closes and he will tell them he never knew them.
    He said
    “Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do what I say?”

    He said we must be born again.
    He said we must love one another as he loved us.
    He said to do good to our enemies.

    He walked in faith according to the Spirit.
    He spoke the truth in love.
    He was used by God to do the works of God.

    He is the Word of God.
    His teachings are of the Spirit of God.

    #21671
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Some believe the Logos was not a being who was begotten of God in the beginning. Instead they hold that Jesus became the Son of God at his conception in Mary. What do others think?

    #21702
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In order to say that Christ was created as a man first, we then deny that Christ's nature which was of his Fathers.

    We demote Jesus to a flesh being who was exhalted afterward. But this thinking does seem to deny the truth that 'Jesus came in the flesh', 'that Jesus partook of the flesh'.

    To me there are too many scriptures that talk of pre-existence. So many that it would take a major effort in mis-translations of scripture to create scriptures that indeed talk of Christ existing before coming as a man. Even much more than translations that twist scripture to a Trinity bias.

    These scriptures are as follows, yet I am sure that the Unitarians have an explanation for all of them. But I am not convinced of their arguments.

    I will make a following post listing these scriptures.

    #21703
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Not all these verses are clear teachings of Christ pre-existing in Heaven before coming in the flesh. Some are just pointers and fit nicely into the big picture. On their own they are not proof.
    Other scriptures in my opinion teach clearly that Christ existed (as the Logos) before he partook of the flesh.

    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

    John 1:15
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “

    John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows pre-existence, at least before John the Baptist.

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    &

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Was this a vision or the real thing?

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who originated in ancient times.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

    30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
    31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
    32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
    33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
    34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
    35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
    36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
    37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
    38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
    39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

    We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
    1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
    2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3 They all ate the same spiritual food
    4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    So is the Angel/Messenger of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

    Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

    aion {ahee-ohn'}
    1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    2) the worlds, universe
    3) period of time, age

    We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

    John 3:17
    For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
    1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
    2) to send away, dismiss
    2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
    2b) to order one to depart, send off
    2c) to drive away

    To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (s
    ent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Surely the above verses assumes pre-existence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he pre-existed in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

    This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

    A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

    John 3:12-15
    12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
    13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
    14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
    15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

    Ezekiel 8:1-3
    1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
    2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
    3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

    This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

    12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
    13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
    14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
    15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
    18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
    God > Christ > Man > Woman

    If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

    So we know that Christ pre-existed before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

    Colossians 1:15-16
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    #21785
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    There are some that see man as only flesh and spirit, rather like the philosphers view of man in Ecclesiastes. They do not see man with a soul. They have defined the soul out of existence thus breaking all the scriptures especially in the Psalms about our soul. God does relate to man at times just as body:

    “Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust though shalt return”

    Those who deny the soul see only with human eyes and not eyes of the Spirit. Thus they cannot grasp the inner aspect of man, the unseen and integrated soul being.

    They see Christ in the same light and thus cannot grasp how it was a soul that he differed. It was a unseen living soul being he came from heaven and became flesh like us.

    It is his soul vessel that is surely of gold as in 2 Tim 2 20 whereas we are only of earthenware. Yet such earthenware can still hold treasure.

    #21878
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes if we are body, spirit, and soul then how can Christ, (who is greater) be only spirit and body. Especially considering that he was like us.

    This is where the idea that God took flesh came from. It is antichrist i.e., against Christ, against anointing, against the truth.

    Mark 14:34
    “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    #23114
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Some would suggest that John borrowed LOGOS from the greek culture he lived in. No matter so long as the words he wrote were the words the Holy Spirit wrote, through him.

    #24337
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    The biblical being, the Logos or Word, continues to cause a lot of discussion.

    Many would prefer to say he was only a thought or a plan in the mind of God so we should look further as a Word is expressed from a person unlike a thought or a plan which is within the person.

    #29162
    NickHassan
    Participant

    this is topical

    #29166
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    As far as I know a thought cannot think.

    Phillipians chapter 2 tells us that Jesus bing in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

    The ability to think very strongly implies independant existence and a conscious state of being. Jesus himself supports this premise by referring in John 17 to the glory that he had with God before the foundation of the world.

    This begs the question how can Jesus be said to have shared this glory with God if he in fact only existed as a thought. He would have no memory of it and therefore also would not really be able to be said to have actually had it.

    Also I hardly think he would have been asking God his Father to reduce him back to the state of being a thought in His mind…

    #29169
    NickHassan
    Participant

    amen

    #32021
    NickHassan
    Participant

    always topical

    #32335
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Trinitarians emphasise the Word being god in Jn 1 but never have I seen them explain the Word being WITH GOD. Yet that aspect of verse has witnessing verses.

    Jn 1
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1
    2The same was in the beginning with God
    1Jn 1
    2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    So it is established scriptural fact.

    And it seeems to mean just what it says.
    Compare.
    Genesis 5:22
    And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Genesis 21:20
    And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

    Genesis 26:24
    And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

    NO ONE SUGGESTS ABRAHAM WAS PART OF GOD

    Deuteronomy 20:1
    When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

    WITH MEANS WITH

    #32359

    Quote
    Also I wonder if God really does know everything in advance.

    t8

    What is this? How could the Father know and number the stars and the sand on the seashore and give us prophetic word centurys in advance if did not know everything?

    ???

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