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The truth about Hell

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  • August 27, 2013 at 10:51 pm#782306
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Part 01 – Is Hell eternal?
    Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal Hell
    Part 03     – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
    Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell

    The doctrine of an eternal Hell has arguably caused more people turn away from God than any other. Many instinctively think that eternal punishment in Hell is cruel beyond belief for sins committed in a person’s short life. Consequently this doctrine has led many to reject God or to disbelieve the Bible.

    But what scriptures do people use to justify this doctrine of eternal suffering in Hell? Before looking at these scriptures I would like to interject that the Bible clearly teaches us that that eternal life is exclusively for the righteous. Yet if we are to assume that the wicked will burn in Hell for all eternity in a conscious state, then we have a contradiction and we have to accept that the wicked inherit eternal life too. The only difference between the righteous and wicked in this view is where they spend this eternal life.

    But scripture is clear on this matter; only the righteous inherit eternal life and the the wicked will suffer eternal death namely the second death. Even the most quoted scripture of all time clearly teaches us that only the righteous inherit eternal life.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    So from what scriptures do people use to support this idea that the wicked will also live eternally, albeit in Hell fire? We will now look at each scripture in depth.

    Revelation 14: 9-11
    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
    10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
    11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    At first glance this scripture seems to indeed teach that these sinners will be tormented forever for their sin of worshipping the beast and his image. But let’s delve deeper into the text, but first a bit of history.

    ‘Hell’ is the English word for Hades or Geena. Hades is the Greek word for the Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ In the Old Testament. The word ‘Sheol’ is never used to describe punishment or torment, rather it was used to describe the place or state of the dead or condition of the lost. Geena in the Old Testament was a valley where a fire burned day and night where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. This is a fitting symbol for the fate of the wicked and their destruction.

    So scripture teaches that all who reject salvation and continue to sin instead will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is called “The Second Death”. In other words, it is the second and final death. An everlasting death. Final destruction.

    Remember in Romans 6:23 it says:
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Clearly the wages of sin is not eternal life in Hell, rather it is just death, final destruction, or eternal death in that you are dead or not alive eternally. Non-existent. So some uses of Hell and/or the Lake of Fire is about eternal destruction.

    Matthew 5:29
    If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell. 

    Revelation 20:10

    Matthew 25:41

    Matthew 25:46

    NOTE: This page is still under construction

    August 27, 2013 at 10:51 pm#782315
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Part 01 – Is Hell eternal?
    Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal Hell
    Part 03     – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
    Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell

    The doctrine of an eternal Hell has arguably caused more people turn away from God than any other. Many instinctively think that eternal punishment in Hell is cruel beyond belief for sins committed in a person’s short life. Consequently this doctrine has led many to reject God or to disbelieve the Bible.

    But what scriptures do people use to justify this doctrine of eternal suffering in Hell? Before looking at these scriptures I would like to interject that the Bible clearly teaches us that that eternal life is exclusively for the righteous. Yet if we are to assume that the wicked will burn in Hell for all eternity in a conscious state, then we have a contradiction and we have to accept that the wicked inherit eternal life too. The only difference between the righteous and wicked in this view is where they spend this eternal life.

    But scripture is clear on this matter; only the righteous inherit eternal life and the the wicked will suffer eternal death namely the second death. Even the most quoted scripture of all time clearly teaches us that only the righteous inherit eternal life.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    So from what scriptures do people use to support this idea that the wicked will also live eternally, albeit in Hell fire? We will now look at each scripture in depth.

    Revelation 14: 9-11
    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
    10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
    11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    At first glance this scripture seems to indeed teach that these sinners will be tormented forever for their sin of worshipping the beast and his image. But let’s delve deeper into the text, but first a bit of history.

    ‘Hell’ is the English word for Hades or Geena. Hades is the Greek word for the Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ In the Old Testament. The word ‘Sheol’ is never used to describe punishment or torment, rather it was used to describe the place or state of the dead or condition of the lost. Geena in the Old Testament was a valley where a fire burned day and night where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. This is a fitting symbol for the fate of the wicked and their destruction.

    So scripture teaches that all who reject salvation and continue to sin instead will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is called “The Second Death”. In other words, it is the second and final death. An everlasting death. Final destruction.

    Remember in Romans 6:23 it says:
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Clearly the wages of sin is not eternal life in Hell, rather it is just death, final destruction, or eternal death in that you are dead or not alive eternally. Non-existent. So some uses of Hell and/or the Lake of Fire is about eternal destruction.

    Matthew 5:29
    If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell. 

    Revelation 20:10

    Matthew 25:41

    Matthew 25:46

    NOTE: This page is still under construction

    August 27, 2013 at 11:46 pm#356339
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2013,13:13)

    Quote (palal @ June 17 2013,08:01)
    A interesting lecture on our debate: http://www.gracechurch.org/media….of_hell


    Palal

    i do not read religion writings ,they are always bias cutting God out from you and replace it by their own views and opinions


    Your posts are religious writings too.

    August 28, 2013 at 3:06 am#356364
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 28 2013,05:46)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2013,13:13)

    Quote (palal @ June 17 2013,08:01)
    A interesting lecture on our debate: http://www.gracechurch.org/media….of_hell


    Palal

    i do not read religion writings ,they are always bias cutting God out from you and replace it by their own views and opinions


    Your posts are religious writings too.


    hi Jake k

    why you do not show it in stead of making ridicule faces ???

    October 17, 2013 at 9:01 pm#777258
    Kena
    Guest

    I have been reading this discussion, and I can see that hell is not eternal based on what revelation says, however, t8 said that God will destroy both body and soul after second death of those who were in hell. Well, if you knew that you were going to have to destroy some of the very creation you made after they have suffered, would you do it? I try to picture myself in God’s postion having to both destroy body and soul after they have suffered. That would be depriving them of life and existence…It seems much more upsetting to think about…Any thoughts..

    October 17, 2013 at 9:19 pm#777259
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    My thinking is this. If God is love, light, truth, and wisdom, then the wicked who reject God reject these as well. Thus living eternally without God would be to suffer for all eternity. If I was found among the wicked, my guess is I would beg for it to end.

    But of course, I want to be with God for all eternity.

    October 26, 2013 at 11:43 am#777260
    Admin
    Keymaster

    What is the punishment of the wicked. It is to perish, to die, to be destroyed. 

    Thus eternal punishment is simply that they will eternally perish, die, be destroyed. 

    In other words, they will never have life. Because eternal life is only for the righteous.

    If you believe that the wicked will be alive in Hell, then that is eternal life also, only in a different place. But they do not have eternal life. 

    And if you think that the wicked should be give eternal life in God’s presence, then you deny the choice that they have made to rebel against God and to hate him.

    January 6, 2014 at 6:12 pm#777261
    Leo S
    Guest

    Thank you both T8 and David L for your strong defense of your points of view.
    The issue is most likely the one that I struggle with the most in my Christian faith. All of my heart wants to agree with T8 for the reason that I would have a hard time with eternal joy, while knowing there is an eternal hell with people in it, whether I know them or not. All of my mind wants to agree with T8, since destruction seems a logical reaction of a potter whose creation was not acceptable. Eternally damaging anything that is not passing quality control seems counter to a “creator” mind-set of any kind, since it is the creativity that provides its own reward. Eternal destruction gives no reward at all. Jesus wept “ Oh Jerusalem, why …”. I can only imagine that God weeps in the same way when He sees us do our thing on earth: wickedness, war, torture. I know God punishes, the bible is full of that, but is always has a lesson for others. When all the “old” passes away, punishment has lost its educational purpose.

    I do however read many sections with fear and trembling interpreting the scripture like David L. I fear an eternal hell, because I am not sure of the truth or falseness of the concept. I have to admit that this fear is a strong motivator and lack of preaching of hell may lead to an attitude of “I’m here for a good time, not a long time. It can be seen all around us By the way, I don’t know Greek and cannot keep up with the academics here. Perhaps if anyone reads this it would be good to know how I got to my current faith:

    When I myself had my doubts about God’s existence (partially through my own skeptical mind and partly through modern materialism creeping in through “higher education”), I read and read in frantic response to a fading faith (in anything spiritual). It left me terribly lost and confused. I despaired to the point where the issue haunted my all day. I went up in my dad’s pasture one night and prayed on a hill in desperation, partly fearing there being no God (so I’d be there waiting forever), partly fearing there would be a God (not pleased with my unbelief, resulting in His anger with me). It took a long time but at one point I had a powerful experience that left me with peace, and faith. That experience was non-verbal, non-visionary. It was warmth (on a pretty chilly night), heavy (I had to lay down on the ground) and all super powerful (unlike anything emotional I have ever experienced). As I said, I am a skeptic and question all experiences, but this one has left me with decades of steady peace and several miracles.
    I was so grateful that I did not meet an angry God, so surprised that He gave me faith although the bible seems to state that no signs are given without faith, so overwhelmed that I had been given this experience, so ashamed that I had nothing to bring to the table in return that I gave what I could: I gave God permission to do as He pleased in my life, and asked Him to correct me as needed, and bring me back if I drifted, and pull me back by the hair of my head if need be, so that I would never again face the terrible agony of the feeling of being without God.
    God has done this for the past 30 years. I have had great times and times of pain health issues and worries. It has chiseled me down to a much less selfish person. My desires in life are more modest. Loving my neighbour has changed from a “good that I must do” to a thing I naturally want to do. I have become more patient, see God’s will work over the years and decades and have become less fearful of the passing of time.

    This is what I want to emphasize: less fearful of the passing of time. I have seen that the slow refining fire of God is painful but immensely effective. It is the decreasing fear that makes me a more effective servant, knowing that the Creator has a timeline and a skill that I cannot try to highjack by doing something good, quickly, because I’m running out of time.
    I study God’s word. I can never know it all. I can never answer all my questions, especially all of the tough ones that Christian apologetics try to explain. I am a reasonably well educated person with a couple of degrees and I feel like an absolute simpleton in the face of the overwhelming words of the bible. I will keep studying, but I must believe like the child that I am. I must hold on to the belief that the God that met me on that mountain, Who surprised me with His love, is love and will always be love. Punishment must have a creative purpose. One verse really hit me a few months ago as I was contemplating the issue you discuss. It is the 17th printing (1972) of a Billy Graham Crusade Edition of the living Bible (paraphrased); I will let the bible scholars argue about the translation. I have not seen this verse translated in exactly this way anywhere else, but here it is: 1 John 4: 18,19….

    “We need to have no fear from someone who loves us perfectly; his perfect love for us eliminates all dread of what he might do to us. If we are afraid, it is for fear of what he might do to us, and shows us that we are not fully convinced that he really loves us. . So you see, our love for him comes as a result of him loving us first.”

    I am not disrespecting either one of your views. Indeed I am afraid to change the opinion of either, for if yours be correct then I am guilty of leading you astray. Yet this logic is exactly what eternal hell and damnation creates in me: a fear of doing anything, even sharing my opinion. This cannot be what God wants from a servant. He wants us to invest the talents. Was it this fear that made the one investor in the parable not use his talents? (I knew you were a hard master!). I know the answer was “you wicked and lazy servant!”, but you get my point. I don’t think we should be paralyzed by fear.
    I am to the point in my life now that even I the absence of fear of eternal punishment, I want to follow God. And I carefully, fearfully “welcome” corrective punishment, for I never want to be separated from God.
    Thank you again for your heated debate, my two brothers in Christ. Many writers and webmasters carefully avoid debate; showing the weakness of their commitment. May God bless you both and may He see two servants hard at work.

    January 7, 2014 at 4:03 am#777262
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Hi Leo.

    Thanks for your thoughts above.

    I personally believe that the doctrine of eternal life in Hell fire turns more people off from God than toward him. And those that turn to God because they want to avoid eternal life in fire, are more afraid than sorry and more fearful than loving.

    But there is nothing greater than love and God gave man free will so that we would truly love him. Possessing free will is risky because you can choose against God, but if there was no free will, then our supposed love for God would not really be love, but the outworking of a program. Thus we would not be the pinnacle of God’s creation, but more akin to a robot.

    We are also taught that all these bad things will pass away and will not even come into remembrance. And yes God will burn the wicked (tares) but that same fire also burns the old creation and Hell too. That fire is called the Second Death. Think of it as the final death.

    Thus we should turn to God because we want his love for eternity. I can’t help but think if a man turns to God because he fears eternal existence in pain, he is not really a man that necessarily loves God, but is trying to save his own skin so to speak.

    For God is love and the sons of God are known by their love for one another. To me, being in Heaven and ignoring the eternal suffering of souls would be worse than being rich and turning a blind eye to the poor. Surely the most righteous would weep for such day and night forever, while those who didn’t care would ignore them and enjoy all that Heaven offers.

    Thankfully when I seriously looked into this, there were many scriptures that most ignore. And eternal destruction means destroyed forever, no one can argue against that. This would mean, no chance of a resurrection of re-creation. But most denominations take the view that it means eternal life in fire. So both the righteous and wicked have eternal life, but in different places. But scripture says that only the righteous will inherit eternal life, while the wicked will perish like animals. (Do animals burn in eternal fire?)

    But life is truly only for the righteous and that makes not only scriptural sense, but moral sense to me.

    January 19, 2014 at 5:34 am#777263
    Drew
    Guest

    WOW Leo, this is brilliant and is exactly where my heart is also. Its nice to hear from someone with same convictions. I also have enjoyed this debate BUT I can only conclude for myself by that which proves right by the spirit and nature of the God I have come to know much more intimately over the years. I like how T8 and DavidL have discussed their views so well roundedly and respectfully. Thanks guys.

    January 25, 2014 at 11:37 am#777264
    Admin
    Keymaster

    This comment is taken from the forum from one of the members.
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?s=6f06cd118919b0baac113e49bc93743a;act=ST;f=17;t=4473;st=60;r=1;&#entry428190

    ==================================
    I agree that this teaching goes against the character of God but you cannot overlook the justice of God. Below is what I arrived at after years of searching:

    Hell – Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever,
    However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed”. Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
    For those being punished, the punishment will be proportional to their “sins” ending in annihilation. Eternal life is promised to believers and gifted to adherents, it is not something possessed by all of mankind. Eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences. This concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.

    Lake of Fire – I believe that when sin was first found in satan it was only apparent to God. The trouble was God knew that the sin in satan would spread and ruin all of Heaven itself. So He created the Lake of Fire to destroy the irredeemable (which I believe that those exposed to Gods glory and still allow sin a place cannot be redeemed). But if He were to throw satan in prior to his sins being apparent to the rest of Heavens inhabitants, they would not see the Love and Justice of God as obviously satan was popular and I do not believe that satan had done anything openly evil (something Heaven’s inhabitants probably didn’t understand anyway).

    I believe it was at this point God created man with the express purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.

    We know that God has His faithful angels and we’re told satan has his but I believe that there are still those sitting on the fence. In Revelation where we are told that war breaks out in heaven and this is where I think the host of heaven has had their fill of satan’s ways and expel him and his from heaven.

    As Christ begins His reign, satan will be thrown into the abyss. After a thousand years he will be released from his prison to further demonstrate both the inclination of flesh to sin and why satan cannot be redeemed and has to be thrown into the lake of fire.

    Now God, who would have been reduced in stature had He have tried to explain His actions, is glorified for His; Grace, Wisdom, Holiness, Love and Forgiveness. He has also gained more sons proven through fire than He lost to satan.
    ==================================

    January 30, 2014 at 2:07 am#777265
    Anastas
    Guest

    I cannot say which view is correct, God knows. But as for my spirit and the sense I have gotten by the holy scriptures I would have to admit my leanings are towards an everlasting hell… Inasmuch as we understand everlasting to be that is. There are instances in the bible that “forever” is used to imply “a really long time” but that isn’t the point I mean to pursue here. Our brother Matthew said that the wicked should have “eternal punishment”. This seems to be a straight forward quote but I know that scripture is not always as straight forward as one verse may suggest. Often there are other hints of it even though they can be explained away and are not “in your face” types of proof like “eternal destruction” or “eternal fire” etc. However, I do think that they imply the eternity of the suffering to come for unbelievers. The fact is, God is holy and just and this is His creation and we can not know how terrible a sin really is in His perfect judgment. If doing sin is deserving eternal punishment, how much more is God’s love for us shown when we are given the opportunity to be absolved in Christ? Yes this is just speculation you might say which is nice but proves nothing. True. But I also look at revelation 20:12-15 and it says that death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire and this is before the unbelievers were. It would appear that death was done away with so the wicked would pay the price of their lawlessness. It seems to me that death was destroyed but since death was destroyed/killed that those who entered into the lake of fire afterwards would only be in a state of constant and continuous death but not actually dying. It would be a lot more comforting to me to think if I fail in serving Christ in faith and deed, that I might just simple perish than suffer a terrible torture. It would be comforting… but does this make sinning or being useless easier to do? I would think that it does.

    January 30, 2014 at 3:26 am#777266
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Even if the destruction is aeon for an age or even ages, or whether it is eternal, one view is that the worst is eternal destruction, in other words, destroyed forever.

    But the everlasting destruction that is traditionally taught is really an eternal life, but in a place of torment. If that was the case, we all inherit eternal life, but in different places.

    January 30, 2014 at 3:33 am#777267
    Admin
    Keymaster

    As far as there being little or no deterant if an everlasing Hell were not true, I would like to say this.

    The Great Judgement takes place after the Millennial Reign. That is a long time to be in Hell. All this age and the next (forever and ever technically speaking because that term means an age and an age). But after the judgement, Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. This is taught clearly. And this same fire is the one that burns up the old heavens and earth too.

    Being in Hell before that event is a long time, and that should be deterrent enough for anyone IMO. I mean I had a vision where I was put in Hell for a matter of seconds and it was horrible beyond description.

    Vision of Hell

    When people say that God will basically torture souls forever, the gospel that they preach loses a lot of credibility, because that is picturing a God that essentially is hurting people more than Adolph Hitler did. That is how they picture it and they immediately know something is not right with that.

    Finally we are told in Genesis, that God sent Cherubim to protect the Tree of Life because if man had eaten that fruit after the fall, he would have lived forever as a sinner. Thus, God spared man that horrible fate. That shows his love right there.

    January 30, 2014 at 7:19 pm#777268
    anastas
    Guest

    It could be as you say but Could you explain your view on what our Lord meant in matt. 25:46?

    January 30, 2014 at 11:08 pm#777269
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Matthew 25:46
    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    So the question to ask is what exactly is the punishment.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    So the wicked perish and obviously they perish of eternity. There is nothing in John 3:16 that states that they are perishing forever, but that they perish forever.

    Is the above a correct view of the word perish? Look at the next verse to see the same word. And apply that same word to John 3:16 and you will see that it means perish, not perishing.

    Colossians 2:21-22 21
    21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
    22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

    Further, the wicked perish like animals. I am pretty sure that no one holds the belief that animals will suffer an eternal hell, yet the wicked suffer their fate. What is that fate? That they will not have eternal life, but instead will perish.

    2 Peter 2:12
    But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

    Now here we have a verse that talks about perishing, and it is obviously meaning the living, not the dead.

    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    The punishment for the wicked is also destruction. The same argument made for the word perish can be made for the word destruction. Ask yourself this, when you destroy something, does that mean you break continuously? Or is a single act where it goes from working to being destroyed. The thing about the word destruction is it is conveying that it cannot be brought back, not that it exists forever in a broken state.

    So the thing about Matthew 25:46 is clear, that only the righteous have eternal life or exist eternally. Otherwise you could teach that the wicked also have eternal life, but in Hell.

    February 1, 2014 at 3:25 am#777270
    Anastas
    Guest

    You asked what is the punishment and you answered with destruction and I would agree to that. The difference in opinion still comes from the words of the Lord when he said, “And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.” – Matt 25:46

    Now on the one hand it says eternal punishment and on the other eternal life. It has both scenarios listed together. In both accounts we have eternity but only one is described as life. So the real question is not what the punishment is, but what life truly is. Is life just simply existing? Or is it more than that?

    Everything in the bible has degrees. Just as Jesus the Lord said “but the righteous into eternal life” it is also written “there is none righteous, no, not one”- romans 3:10. Just as there are degrees of righteousness that one may be righteous in one degree but not in another, there are degrees of life and destruction.

    Now if the punishment were simply death/destruction that meant forever dead then the word “destruction” would be more than adequate by itself and the word eternal would not be needed. Why would we assume that we would be recreated after we were destroyed because of our wickedness at some point when nothing in the bible points to that? We wouldn’t and that is why the Christ was sure to speak about eternal punishment.

    I would think that the destruction a wicked man judged to be unworthy for life would receive is an on going destruction because death was already put away with in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14-15). Where there is no death there is no way for a soul to find the end of destruction but would only continue in the process of destruction for eternity.

    I think of it this way. “A servant is not greater than his lord” – John 15:20 So just as the false prophet was a servant of Satan and we know that his punishment, indeed, was eternal torment in the lake of fire (rev 20:10) why would we expect that men and angels who chose to follow and serve him would not also be punished in the same way as the false prophet who served him?

    February 1, 2014 at 3:48 am#777271
    Anastas
    Guest

    I do not speak as if I know all things or even this thing for that matter. I only offer what I see and leave the rest to the readers own understandings and hope the Spirit of truth may show them the truth. I hope I speak the truth and may God forgive me if I speak ignorantly and may I be corrected if I am wrong. I wouldn’t think this is a road block for a brother, however. One way or the other, If you are correct T8 or if I am, any believer can agree that God is just and the appropriate punishment will be dealt out. God will do as he sees fit, and we should not merely accept it but glorify it one way or the other.

    February 1, 2014 at 12:18 pm#777272
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good questions Anastas.

    Without spending too much time right now going through every major point, I will address the crux of what you are saying.

    You said:

    Now if the punishment were simply death/destruction that meant forever dead then the word “destruction” would be more than adequate by itself and the word eternal would not be needed. Why would we assume that we would be recreated after we were destroyed because of our wickedness at some point when nothing in the bible points to that? We wouldn’t and that is why the Christ was sure to speak about eternal punishment.

    The answer that springs to my mind immediately is that the wicked are thrown into the Second Death. So obviously that implies a first death that is not eternal. Without doing any research due to time and reciting what I have learned over the years I will give you a quick answer that would need to be checked out.

    Death means ‘separation’. Thus the first death is the separation of the body and soul. This is still in the realm of existence as the souls of the righteous are with the Lord and the souls of the wicked are in Hell/Hades where there is torment. I have seen this myself in a vision and scripture speaks of this.

    The Second Death, I can only imagine is the separation of the soul and the spirit of God for all eternity. If life comes from God’s Spirit/Breath only, then this spirit is taken away and the soul ceases to exist or be self conscious. For a wicked soul to exist for all eternity, this would require God giving life to that soul in order for it to be aware of the punishment and torment that many imagine.

    So if there is eternal life which is existence of souls sustained by the Spirit of God, and housed in bodies,then likewise there is eternal damnation where souls have not the Spirit/Breath of God and neither a body to exist through. They are as good gone because they have not life. And yes the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever because every age will know of the fate of the Godless. The same description is given of Sodom and yet is there a traditional fire still burning there, or is it the smoke that rises up forever as a reminder as to what happened to this godless place.

    just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    Notice that Sodom was destroyed forever. To this day, no one knows exactly where that city was. And Jude points out that they are an example of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. He wrote this by the time the flames were well and truly extinguished too.

    If the Second Death is eternal, that is no proof that those who were cast in there are alive and suffering for all eternity. Yes it might take some time for the process of destruction, but to be fully aware and suffering for all eternity is not destruction and nor have they perished, rather that would require a purposeful sustenance of God’s Spirit to keep them alive. The only difference is that they are being barbecued forever while being kept alive.

    It really boils down to whether we believe that the wicked will be destroyed or they will be preserved in order to suffer for all the ages to come.

    February 1, 2014 at 12:28 pm#777273
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    God will do as he sees fit, and we should not merely accept it but glorify it one way or the other.

    Yes that is true. And we have scripture that teaches us about the destiny of the righteous and fate of the wicked. So we can glimpse God’s plan, his judgement, mercy, and love, by reading scripture.

    Scripture says that the wicked will be destroyed. When we read that same word regarding other things, it still means destroyed in they way that most understand that word. Yet when it comes to wicked men, somehow the meaning is changed to being more akin to being preserved so that one will suffer forever and ever, fully conscious, and obviously kept alive by God’s Spirit because nothing else gives life.

    But we know that God who is a Spirit is the God of the living, not the dead. If God kept the wicked alive to suffer fully conscious for all eternity, then wouldn’t that mean that he is the God of the dead too.

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