Home Scripture & Verse The truth about Hell Page 21

The truth about Hell

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  • March 21, 2015 at 10:17 am#791247
    Miia
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    Interesting questions and i plan to look into that more when I have some extra time (and watch that other video).

    First thought is: In the absence of death there would be no need to procreate

    March 21, 2015 at 11:13 am#791253
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    God is doing something new

    He is making a new creation where all is of Spirit.

     

    Flesh contributes nothing, now and in the future.

    March 21, 2015 at 12:31 pm#791268
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    You get confused not knowing what is literal and what is not?

    I admit if those were the only two passages then I would be confused but since they are not I have more evidence to go on. I am told that the body that Jesus rose up from the dead in was flesh and bone and I am convinced that is true even though it appears he passed through a wall even while in it. I am told elsewhere he is example of what the resurrected will be like and that I also am confident is true. Since I am confident those two Scriptural premises are true then it must also be true that the resurrected body is flesh and bone.

    I am confident it is true because I know Jesus did not lie when he declared Scripture cannot be broken. The same cannot be said about human teachings though it is plausible they are internally consistent.

    March 21, 2015 at 12:40 pm#791269
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    So a perfect Adam and Eve were told to multiply and then in the new Earth, there is no procreation?

    If God is redeeming creation back to the Father, then why the different plan all of a sudden. Does God redeem in a way that will go beyond the original plan? If so, for what reason. Did he not do it perfectly the first time?

    I am not ridiculing you. Just asking some honest questions relating to your view.

    Humanity will fill the earth, at the population maximum he decrees, and there will be no more death and so no need of replacements or growth. The earth was not at that population maximum when God commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the Earth then they brought in sin and death and created more need for reproduction.

    March 21, 2015 at 12:45 pm#791270
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    I have started the video at the point that is relevant to what we are discussing (which is near the end).

    It’s really just saying what we/some are saying here. The Earth as the abode of men and the Final Judgement comes with a punishment that is based upon the sins committed followed by final destruction of the wicked, and the old heavens and earth.

    From what I understand so far this video uses the words from a vision that was given in the Nineteenth century. It starts at the fall of Babylon. However, I have embedded the video to start near the end. You can watch the whole thing if you want though. Just move the slider to the beginning.

    It is mostly just following scripture from what I can see. Just worded like a story.

    Thank you. I value your words more those I do not know and cannot cross examine to better understand their claims. If I get on a computer where the sound is still working I may take a look.

    March 23, 2015 at 8:54 am#791432
    Miia
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    God is doing something new

    He is making a new creation where all is of Spirit.

    Flesh contributes nothing, now and in the future.

    Hi @NickHassan
    I am genuinely interested in what you say here.

    Jesus was raised as flesh and bone.

    Then scripture says “Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

    I can understand the strength of spirit over flesh. It also say “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

    But then Paul also says ““How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.”

    Now I could imagine being spirit only, but this seems to indicate a body of some type.

    March 23, 2015 at 9:38 am#791440
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mila,

    Yes a spiritual body like to the angels.

    No longer male and female and not given or taken in marriage.

    March 24, 2015 at 6:00 pm#791563
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    God is doing something new

    He is making a new creation where all is of Spirit.

    Flesh contributes nothing, now and in the future.

    Did you know that God can destroy the soul just the same as he can destroy the body.

    If destruction doesn’t mean what we think it does and is a cryptic word for remaining eternally (as many teach) then just as the wicked soul will exist on for eternity (as they say), then so could the old body too (as they do not say).

    Perhaps destroy means what it suppose to mean. If so, God can destroy the soul just as he can destroy the body. Is it really that simple? Yes it is. He can and will destroy both in the case of the wicked.

    March 28, 2015 at 2:08 pm#791864
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    I believe that among the Jews is a true teaching and that is that God cast certain people into Gehenna to suffer for a unspecified time and then at the end of that time he destroys them.

    I have not yet know of any evidence but they may also be right that he does this because some will come to repent of their sins after being tormented for ages and ages.

    These Jews, who do not hold the New Testament is the word of God, already have a teaching that explains the words of Revelations.

    March 28, 2015 at 2:17 pm#791866
    kerwin
    Participant

    @t8,

    I can point to Scriptures that speak of a time of torment for demons and others that speak of humans being tormented for ages and ages.  I can also point to passages that speak of the wicked being destroyed.  All these words must be true and annihilation alone does not account for all of them satisfactory.

     

    March 29, 2015 at 12:20 am#791907
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Well we know they are destroyed and we know they suffer. So that leaves one option. They suffer before being destroyed. In other words destruction is not instant for all, but could take longer depending on the sins.

    Some will be beaten with fewer stripes and it seems that the Devil, Beast, and False Prophet get the worst of it.

    March 29, 2015 at 5:53 am#791915
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,
    That is my impression as well.

    April 4, 2015 at 6:47 pm#792698
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good, mine too.

    🙂

    April 4, 2015 at 7:18 pm#792703
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    The stripes are for the rebellious sons of God.

    April 4, 2015 at 7:22 pm#792704
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    Lk 12.47

    They are servants.

    Those of the world are not his servants

    April 4, 2015 at 7:37 pm#792708
    AndrewAD
    Participant

    I hope not to be a cold and naked ghost floating around in the afterlife but rather to be clothed with that holy baptismal gown of heaven,whence I shall be safe and warm in the heavenly place Christ prepared.

    April 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm#792711
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    The meek shall inherit the earth.

    Popular humanist religion says we go to heaven.

    April 4, 2015 at 11:59 pm#792727
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus took punishment upon himself so we could be spared that punishment. He received stripes so we could be spared them.

    Isaiah 53:5
    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    1 Peter 2:24
    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Is all sin the same then, or are some greater than others?

    John 19:11-12
    Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin.”

    Is different punishment given for different sins?

    Exodus 21:23-25
    But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    So people get beaten by more or less stripes depending on the sin?

    Deuteronomy 25:2-3
    …then it shall be if the wicked man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall then make him lie down and be beaten in his presence with the number of stripes according to his guilt…

    Are people then judged accordingly by their deeds? Or is all sin the same and all punishment for sin the same?

    Revelation 20:12-13
    And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

    If people know the truth, are they then punished more for disobeying God than those who didn’t?

    John 9:41
    Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”

    John 15:22
    “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.”

    John 15:24
    “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.”

    Are there differing degrees of judgement and punishment for the wicked?

    Matthew 11:20-24
    “Woe to you, Chorazin. Woe to you, Bethsaida. For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

    Hebrews 10:28-29
    How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Are those who know more whether believer or not, held to a higher standard.

    James 3:1-2
    Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. 

    Hebrews 10:28-29
    How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

     

    April 5, 2015 at 5:53 pm#792818
    AndrewAD
    Participant

    Hi Nick, you say

    The meek shall inherit the earth.

    Popular humanist religion says we go to heaven.

    What I said was from St.Paul who says in 2 Cor.5

    2Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    And did not Jesus say in St Jn 14 that he was going to prepare a place for us,that where he is there we may be also?And just where is he? in heaven right?

    In St.Jn 17 what is Jesus prayer in vs 24 but that those given him would be where he is that they may behold his glory! and in vs 20 Jesus makes clear that his prayer is not just for his immediate disciples but also all believers.

    You can call the Jesus of St John and Paul humanists if you wish but even many Jews before  Jesus  and since believe in life after death.And what is Jesus point in the synoptics about resurrection but that Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob are currently alive.

    It seems to me that the righteous dead do actually live according to much teaching in the bible.

    April 5, 2015 at 6:39 pm#792822
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    You offer lovely verses about being CLOTHED FROM ABOVE.

     

    Yes we will receive a new heavenly body if you are raised in the first resurrection to meet Jesus in the air.

    Then of course he returns to earth to establish his earthly kingdom.

    No sojourns offered in heaven in scripture.

     

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