The truth about Hell

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October 21, 2006 at 12:50 am#30943

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

I would especially like to talk about this subject since I talked out concerning the trinity.

I would especially like to hear form Nick, since he is well versed in scripture and a true soldier. Though we dont see eye to eye!

I dont believe that God who is Love would make men that he created in his own image to suffer in hell in indescribable torment for ever and ever. I know this is a big one for the traditional organized church.

I used to be very dogmatic about hell and what the scriptures appeared to say and what I was taught by men who were taught from tradition passed down through the centurys. At this point I will get your thoughts because I am still learning concerning this subject!

Anyone especially Nick feel free to respond!

Keith

October 21, 2006 at 12:53 am#30944

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Sorrys Nick I didnt see your topic you can delete this if you would like or continue the subject!

October 24, 2006 at 9:22 pm#31221

Admin

Keymaster

No problem.
I will close this off.
Please refer to the 'Eternal torment' discussion.

March 6, 2011 at 9:33 am#238335

karmarie

Participant

Eternal Hell Torment,

Why do people believe it?

Why dont they question it?

Why do they defend it?

March 6, 2011 at 11:48 am#238336

seekingtruth

Participant

karmarie,
I believed it because it was what I was taught.

I did question it but felt I was “off base” to question doctrine established by smarter men then me.

Because most translations we have translate aion as eternal instead of “The entirety of time for the object being discussed”

After more than 20 years I realized that an eternal hell went against everything that God represented impugning the very character of God. I searched out how it could be different while not just ignoring scripture. That's when I discovered that the word aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity.

My opinion – Wm

March 6, 2011 at 1:06 pm#238337

Tim Kraft

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 06 2011,21:48)

karmarie,
I believed it because it was what I was taught.

I did question it but felt I was “off base” to question doctrine established by smarter men then me.

Because most translations we have translate aion as eternal instead of “The entirety of time for the object being discussed”

My opinion – Wm

Wm: Let me first say welcome to revelation knowledge. You saw truth that didn't fit your previous doctrine, searched it out and concluded that your previous beliefs were not so for you. You chose God before man. Many will come and say, oh, Wm, you are wrong or Wm that can't be right, but now you know in your heart and nobody can take it away from you. Bless, you!
I happen to agree with your choice of understanding. You will continue to be blessed(with more understanding) by God because of your willingness to hear his words of truth even if the doctrines must go. Now you are willing to discard doctrines that may even be mainstream religious doctrines, for the truth in your heart. God bless you with truth! TK

March 7, 2011 at 10:23 pm#238338

karmarie

Participant

Hi and thanks.

Im glad there are many others who dont believe in this.

There may be some type of 'hell' I dont deny that. A TIME of punishment. We dont know for sure.

I can understand those who havent ever thought about it….. I used to be one of them.

But what I cant understand is people who will debate it and they just dont 'get it'

they ignore whatever scriptures you give them.

They seem to think the word perish and death means something else.

They make God out to be some kind of monster.

Seeking truth……..what happened to me is, i used to believe it and never thought about it, then one day I did. And the more I thought about it the more disturbed i got. After not speaking to God for a while I finally did and I asked if it was true. And I had even said that if it was true then I wont be worshipping a God like that.

I figured…. if we have love and compassion, then there must be some other God who we have got that off, and that God will save us.

But God reassured me that he is love and theres nothing to worry about.

I know theres been other threads here on the doctrine. But I just dont understand how people can still believe it after being given a different side.

The whole thing seems to make them happy?

March 8, 2011 at 12:35 am#238354

Proclaimer

Participant

PERISH: The Greek word for perish according to the Strongs Concordance, means to destroy fully, die or mar.

To understand the meaning and context of the word perish; Read the next 2 scriptures.

Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

The following scriptures tell us that the wicked will perish too.

2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

The verse you have just read shows that the wicked will be destroyed/perish like beasts. Now if that somehow means that the wicked suffer eternal torment, then we can only conclude given that argument that animals will also suffer eternal torment. Doesn't sound right to me, I would suggest that both are destroyed ie: they no longer exist.

1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Romans 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

*John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

March 8, 2011 at 12:40 am#238355

Proclaimer

Participant

DESTRUCTION: The Greek word for 'Destruction' according to the Strongs Concordance, can mean the following: Perdition, waste, to die, destroying, utter destruction of vessels, ruin.

To understand the meaning and context of the word destruction; Read the next 2 scriptures.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The following scriptures tell us that the wicked will also be destroyed.

Romans 9 22
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

March 8, 2011 at 1:57 am#238364

theodorej

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 08 2011,08:23)

Hi and thanks.

Im glad there are many others who dont believe in this.

There may be some type of 'hell' I dont deny that. A TIME of punishment. We dont know for sure.

I can understand those who havent ever thought about it….. I used to be one of them.

But what I cant understand is people who will debate it and they just dont 'get it'

they ignore whatever scriptures you give them.

They seem to think the word perish and death means something else.

They make God out to be some kind of monster.

I figured…. if we have love and compassion, then there must be some other God who we have got that off, and that God will save us.

But God reassured me that he is love and theres nothing to worry about.

I know theres been other threads here on the doctrine. But I just dont understand how people can still believe it after being given a different side.

The whole thing seems to make them happy?

Greetings…. Let us look at this doctrine closely,bearing in mind,that the God of the Bible is a loving mercifull God that wants no one to perish…that being the case, the existance of a place of torment is not in keeping with Gods very nature…When God sees fit he will purge this world of all wickedness and Jesus will usher in the milenial reign which will be Gods kingdom/Government here on earth the government will be administered by those who God chose as well as those who died in Christ, also those who were spared death and were in christ during the tribulation these will probably number 144000….This will be a period of re education and Gods law will be in the hearts and minds of all who survived the tribulation….Of course there will be some who still rebel,however justice will be sure and swift and they will just cease to exist and be raised at the end of this period for another opportunity to know God if they still rebel than the second death will befall them and they will cease to exist…there will be no eternal torment…The torment spoken of in scripture speaks of the lake of fire that will be reserved for the false prophet and the beast…This hell and damnation has it roots in the roman church and is illustrated in Dante' Devine Comedy there are so many eroneous doctrines that come from this churches'interpretation of the scriptures and amazing enough the christian protestant churches have embraced them and taught them to the faithfull…

March 8, 2011 at 8:35 am#238406

karmarie

Participant

T8 and Theodore,

iv been in these hell debates for years now. And I truly give up. You show them verses as you just did, and they dont want to know.

I think its all a test. To see if we truly do love our neighbour as ourself.

if we truly do then we would question it.

And if we truly believe in God then we could ask him.

But some seem more determined to save their own life and get to heaven than have any concern for anothers eternity….in which THEY believe is eternal suffering and torment….so long as theyre alright.

Gods laws were summed up with love. And Jesus layed down his own life for others sins.

(I may not reply here to anything writen for a while as my computer needs to go in for repairs)

March 8, 2011 at 10:10 am#238416

Baker

Participant

Hi, I agree with Wm. Those that think there is a Hell, are deceived by men. I d believe in the Lake of Fire, though. t8 gave good Scriptures, that all wicked will perish. That is the second death. Coming out of the Catholic Church we believed in Hell. Even in a purgatory… But that was before we ever read the Bible. That is one way to keep people fearful and stay in that Church, never questing that Authority. Most Catholics even today believe that. I also believe that God has to do the calling. I have tried several times talking to one of our Son's who goes to a Baptist Church. It got to a point that He got so mad, I had to quit bringing up scriptures. as a Mother it was hard. At first we wanted all our Family out of the Worldly systems. Today however I understand that I can talk to them until I am blue in the face, if God is not calling them, they will not understand…..
We have put our Children and Grandchildren in God's Hands, and one day all will know the truth….until then Peace with all Irene

March 8, 2011 at 10:42 pm#238469

Proclaimer

Participant

There must exist a holding place for the dead and according to at least one parable there was a place for the wicked and another for the righteos and they are/were separate. Now we do know that Hell (or whatever the Greek word for that is) exists.

Because God throwns Hell into the Lake of Fire.

So instead of an eternal hell where people burn forever, God in his mercy destroys hell, thereby subjecting the wicked to the second death.
This is God's mercy because giving a sinner eternal life in misery and pain is not love at all.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge, God sent an angel to protect them from eating from the tree of life. This was speciffically done to stop man from living as a sinner forever. That shows the love of God.

March 8, 2011 at 10:51 pm#238470

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2011,16:42)

Because God throwns Hell into the Lake of Fire.

Good points t8

But you will find that many do not believe in a holding place for those who die but rather that they cease to exist and wait in the graves.

Jesus proved that theory wrong when he told the story of Lazarus and the rich man which is not a parable at all since Jesus never claimed it to be and the fact that he used a name which in parables he never did.

March 9, 2011 at 12:34 am#238472

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote

The holding place for the dead (hades) was cast into the lake of fire when Christ returned in ad70. Upon their death the righteous go straight to God now in their bodies from heaven. The wicked go straight to the lake of fire when they die.

March 9, 2011 at 12:37 am#238475

Proclaimer

Participant

Thanks for your input KJ.

March 9, 2011 at 12:46 am#238476

Proclaimer

Participant

WJ, yes it also says that when the angel blew the fifth trumpet, John saw the souls of the righteous under the throne of God.

It is commonly assumed that the souls John sees under the altar (v. 9) are in heaven because the altar is assumed to be the altar in God's heavenly temple. When we read on in the book, we discover that this assumption is reasonable, since “the altar” in heaven is mentioned again in 8:3 (twice), 8:5, 9:13, 14:18 and 16:7. What is odd is that in describing the fifth seal John speaks of the altar (with a definite article) as if it is well-known to his readers, even though he now introduces it for the first time. No altar was included in his detailed description of the heavenly throne room scene in chapters 4-5. The closest he came to mentioning an “altar” (Greek thysiasthrion) was his reference to “golden bowls of incense” (Greek thymiamata), representing as he said “the prayers of the saints” (5:8). Another odd thing is the phrase itself: under the altar. Who are these souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained (v. 9), and why are they under the heavenly altar?
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc….s-Altar

March 9, 2011 at 12:47 am#238477

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 09 2011,10:34)

That could be the case if we assume that we are bound in time and all this happens outside of the time dimension.

March 9, 2011 at 3:27 am#238491

Baker

Participant

t8 and WJ If there is a holding place then these Scriptures contradict

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Also if they that die go to a place, then why a resurrection?
is there a Scripture that tells us there is a holding place??
And Christ has not returned yet. That too is wrong, why? Because then we will have peace, The Lamb will peacefully dwell with the Lion, the Wolf and the Bear will no longer be wild, and a Child will play with them. Do you see only the truth being taught? No…. Christ with His Saints will teach all truths….when He returns…..No more pain, no more sorrow, all that has not happened yet….But it will, and I am forever looking forward to that…..
Peace Irene

March 9, 2011 at 4:17 am#238502

Proclaimer

Participant

Hi Irene. It is certainly an interesting topic and you raise some pertinent verses on the subject.

Quick question: If Hell/Hades doesn't exist, why is it said to be thrown into the Lake of Fire? And why does Jesus give a parable based on it?

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