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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 6, 2020 at 5:46 am#862251
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I appreciate the effort but it does nothing to disprove that YHWH is one God manifested in two persons…God of gods (Father) and Lord of lords (Son).

    Both are involved in fathering Israel. Also, Hebrews is the witness that the Son is YHWH who made the earth and stretched out the heavens…

    Read it yourself, clearly, Hebrews tells us that the Father is crediting the Son for what is mentioned in Isaiah 45 and Psalm 102.

    Isaiah 45

    12“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
                I stretched out the heavens with My hands
                And I ordained all their host.

    Psalm 102

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
                And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

          26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
                Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

          27“But You are the same,
                And Your years will not come to an end.

    28“The children of Your servants will continue,
    And their descendants will be established before You.”

    Compare with:

    Heb 1:8But about the Son He says:                                   ABOUT THE SON, JODI, IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garmenth they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    Blessings, LU

    April 6, 2020 at 5:48 am#862253
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    I want to make sure you did not miss this post from yesterday:

    I asked all members here for the answer to these “quiz” questions and Mike was the only one to answer. Yeah Mike!

    Here are the quiz questions and Mike’s answer to them:

     

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?

    2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

     

    Mike’s answer: : Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

     

    The second part of the “quiz” asks this:

    Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:

    “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

     

    Mike’s answer: Both refer to “the LORD”.

    Thank you so much Mike for taking that challenge. When you read the passages as they are together, in a fuller context, you will see that YHWH (the LORD) of hosts sends the YHWH (the LORD).

    Zechariah 2:

    10“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    The LORD will dwell in the midst of the daughter of Zion, the LORD is someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords…two persons interdependently (not independently) the fullness of one YHWH.

    I hope you can see this now. LU

    April 6, 2020 at 7:49 am#862255
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: I appreciate the effort but it does nothing to disprove that YHWH is one God manifested in two persons…God of gods (Father) and Lord of lords (Son).

    ME: Agreed, we have ONE God whose name is YHWH.

    Now Jesus speaks of his God and our God who is his Father and our Father.

    Jesus also quotes Deut 6,

    Hear, O Israel: YHWH OUR God is ONE YHWH: 5 And thou shalt love YHWH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Our ONE GOD is the Father and His name is YHWH, this ONE GOD is also Jesus’s ONE GOD. 

    April 6, 2020 at 8:06 am#862256
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Zechariah 2:

    10“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    The LORD will dwell in the midst of the daughter of Zion, the LORD is someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords…two persons interdependently (not independently) the fullness of one YHWH.

    I hope you can see this now. LU

    Try this one – from 25 Trinitarian scholars…

    Zechariah 2:10-11 NET Bible

    “Sing out and be happy, Zion my daughter! 1  For look, I have come; I will settle in your midst,” says the Lord.  “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord on the day of salvation, 1  and they will also be my 2  people. Indeed, I will settle in the midst of you all.” Then you will know that the Lord who rules over all has sent me to you.

    Notice the quotation marks where the LORD stops talking and Zechariah begins.  Zechariah is saying that when this happens, the people will know that it was Jehovah who sent him to speak to them.  As for the “my people”, the OT is loaded with passages where Jehovah goes from speaking of Himself in the first person to referring to Himself by His name.  NET footnote 2 says…

    The LXX and Syriac have the 3rd person masculine singular suffix in both places (“his people” and “he will settle”; cf. NAB, TEV) in order to avoid the Lord speaking of himself in the third person. Such resort is unnecessary, however, in light of the common shifting of person in Hebrew narrative (cf. 3:2).

    And here is the verse to which they allude…

    Zechariah 3:2 NET Bible

    The Lord 1  said to Satan, “May the Lord rebuke you, Satan! May the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, 2  rebuke you! Isn’t this man like a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

    I’m sure you also know of other passages where Jehovah is saying something like, “I will do this and that”, and ends with “Jehovah has spoken it, and it will be done”.  Doesn’t mean there are two Jehovahs.  Besides, we already know that our Lord’s name is Jesus, and his and our God’s name is Jehovah, right?

    April 6, 2020 at 8:13 am#862257
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: The fact that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON implies identical in nature to the One who beget.

    Human sons have the same human nature as their fathers, so it makes sense to me that Jesus would have the same spirit nature as his Father too.  Of course we can only speculate.

    April 6, 2020 at 8:15 am#862258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.

    I understand what you’re saying.  Do you understand that you’re saying that the Father is a combo of Father and Son while the Son is an IDENTICAL combo of Father and Son?  Because that is what you’re saying, right?  Is that what you believe?

    April 6, 2020 at 8:31 am#862259
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: The fact that we don’t read any other lineage that says “as was thought” in it, doesn’t change what you are being told. But I believe there is reason why in Jesus’s specific case those words are there.

    Me too.  There is a very specific reason why one would say that about Jesus’ human father – but nobody else’s.  And that reason aligns with scripture – but contradicts your claim that Jesus was a product of Mary’s womb and Joseph’s seed.

    Jodi:  Did everyone know during the time Jesus was sent out to preach and perform miracles that he was born of a virgin? If they heard it, did everyone believe it? I doubt it. I believe it is because of this very reason “as was thought” were given by Luke. People assumed he was Joseph’s son, of which Luke tells us that he was. 

    Luke wrote that way after Jesus’ ministry, which included healings and other miracles.  It’s not like he was giving a live sermon while writing the words down.  Jesus was clearly NOT Joseph’s son in any biological sense.  He was mothered by Mary, and fathered by the Holy Spirit.  Joseph didn’t even have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.  You’re welcome to your idea that God snagged some of Joseph’s sperm and fertilized Mary’s egg with it – but it contradicts what the scriptures actually teach.

     

    Jodi:  Nor ignore the fact that the child to be born IS the son of David and that he WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest.

    People bowed to him when he was an infant.  He was the human incarnation of God’s firstborn Son from the moment Mary gave birth.  Of course he had already been God’s firstborn Son from ancient times – long before he became flesh and dwelt on earth.

    April 6, 2020 at 8:43 am#862260
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: When time was near for the Son of Man to be taken captive and crucified, he asked God for the glory that he (the Son of Man) had OF God before the world was. 

    Using a much less sensible and logical translation of “para” won’t help you this time – because you still need to figure out how a person who was only 30 years old could be asking God for a glory HE HAD before the world began.  It’s actually the imperfect tense, and is literally “the glory I KEPT ON HAVING” before the world began.  I realize that you want it to read, “the glory you have been saving for me since before the world began”, but that’s not what the scripture says.

    The person Jesus clearly says that HE KEPT ON HAVING glory of/with God before the world began.  That is only one scripture that contradicts your belief that Jesus began his existence as a human being.  There are many others.  Shall we move on to one of them?

    April 6, 2020 at 9:05 am#862261
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  He is called the word of God because he speaks “God’s the Fathers ” , words to us. 

    That is correct.  Jesus, a living entity, has, as one of his many titles, “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman.  So when it says “the Word” was with God in the beginning, it is talking about this spokesman.  When it says this “Word” became flesh, it is talking about this spokesman who was with God in the beginning, later becoming flesh.  When it says the rider of the white horse has the name “The Word of God”, it is talking about this same spokesman, who was with God in the beginning and later was made flesh, fighting against Satan and his armies in the end times.

    It is the same spokesman throughout.  In the beginning with God.  Being made flesh and dwelling among us on earth for 30 years.  Riding a white horse with a sword coming out of his mouth in the last days.  All the same exact living spokesman.

    April 6, 2020 at 9:07 am#862262
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4.  What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?  What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?

    April 6, 2020 at 10:48 am#862267
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    In Duet. YHWH is said to be the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

    You say the God of gods is the Father and the Lord of lords is the Son, together they equate YHWH and YHWH is our God. 

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    only – monos, ALONE

    The ONLY Lord God is not Jesus, Jesus was MADE lord and Christ by his God who is the ONLY Lord God.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    The one sent LU is NOT the ONLY TRUE GOD, he is who the ONLY TRUE GOD sent.

    Jesus’s God and Father and our God and Father is He who is God of gods and Lord of lords. This God of gods and Lord of lords MADE Jesus into a lord. 

    Deut 15: 5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

    Jesus’s was sent out where he learned obedience, where he followed his God’s commands, that God is YHWH, and the Son of Man Jesus returns where he is to continue to obey YHWH.

    You want us to believe LU that YHWH is One God who must take commands from YHWH? 

     

    April 6, 2020 at 10:53 am#862269
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Jodi, your posting habits are breaking the topic so when we post, we are not forwarded to our post. I will post this and see if it has rectified itself. If not, I will go into the Spam queue and see if unspamming posts fixes it. If nothing works, it would still be good to know how you are able to do this. Knowing that would help in a fix.

    April 6, 2020 at 10:54 am#862270
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good it rectified itself I see. Sorry guys if this happens again, but it seems it will come right eventually regardless.

    April 6, 2020 at 12:25 pm#862271
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:Luke wrote that way after Jesus’ ministry, which included healings and other miracles. It’s not like he was giving a live sermon while writing the words down. Jesus was clearly NOT Joseph’s son in any biological sense. He was mothered by Mary, and fathered by the Holy Spirit. Joseph didn’t even have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. You’re welcome to your idea that God snagged some of Joseph’s sperm and fertilized Mary’s egg with it – but it contradicts what the scriptures actually teach.

    ME:

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the GENESIS of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat (GENNAO, fathered by) Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.  So all the generations (GENEA/genealogy) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

    Mike you have blinders on. The GENESIS of Jesus, where he is being declared to be the son of Abraham and David is through Jesus being of the genes of Jacob. The genetic lineage goes from Abraham to David by 14 generations and then from David there are 14 generations and then there are an additional 14 generations unto Christ. You don’t get unto Christ without going through JACOB. Jesus holds the genes of Jacob and that is how he is declared by Matthew to be the son of Abraham and David.

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    OF  EK, of, from, out of

    Joseph the son of David and Mary were going to come together, but he needed to wait because God had promised unto the house of David that He would bring forth the promised son of David by a SIGN, a virgin birth. God brought forth that sign by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    her, AUTOS, himself, herself, themselves, itself
    he, she, it
    the same

    Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth HIS/THEIR firstborn son: and HE called his name JESUS. 

    Psalm 132:10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and <span style=”color: red;”>the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David</span>: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end….

    …67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    The child not yet born IS called David’s son, and that child is said he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. Prophecy tells you likewise, that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God says that He would be a Father to him.   

    The purpose of the virgin birth is for the house of David to know that God’s oath He swore concerning David’s son would be fulfilled, the SIGN was to recognize when that son had been born.

    The virgin birth was NOT a sign so that we would turn and equate Jesus to the likes of a PAGAN DEMIGOD. 

    April 6, 2020 at 12:35 pm#862272
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    I don’t know what you mean about my posting habits breaking the topic, lol, could you explain a bit further?

    What else am I suppose to do but add text to the box and click submit? 🙂

    I just went to edit a post because the highlight was screwed up and when I submitted it the post was deleted again.

    April 6, 2020 at 12:41 pm#862273
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME:

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the GENESIS of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat (GENNAO, fathered by) Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.  So all the generations (GENEA/genealogy) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

    Mike you have blinders on. The GENESIS of Jesus, where he is being declared to be the son of Abraham and David is through Jesus being of the genes of Jacob. The genetic lineage goes from Abraham to David by 14 generations and then from David there are 14 generations and then there are an additional 14 generations unto Christ. You don’t get unto Christ without going through JACOB. Jesus holds the genes of Jacob and that is how he is declared by Matthew to be the son of Abraham and David.

     

    April 6, 2020 at 12:42 pm#862274
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    OF  EK, of, from, out of

    Joseph the son of David and Mary were going to come together, but he needed to wait because God had promised unto the house of David that He would bring forth the promised son of David by a SIGN, a virgin birth. God brought forth that sign by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    her, AUTOS, himself, herself, themselves, itself
    he, she, it
    the same

    Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth HIS/THEIR firstborn son: and HE called his name JESUS. 

    Psalm 132:10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end….

    …67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    The child not yet born IS called David’s son, and that child is said he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. Prophecy tells you likewise, that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God says that He would be a Father to him.   

    The purpose of the virgin birth is for the house of David to know that God’s oath He swore concerning David’s son would be fulfilled, the SIGN was to recognize when that son had been born.

    The virgin birth was NOT a sign so that we would turn and equate Jesus to the likes of a PAGAN DEMIGOD.

    April 6, 2020 at 9:47 pm#862283
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi to all

     

    “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us…” (Isaiah 9:5)

    For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)

    (Isaiah 7:1-16) The Syrian-Ephraim war had served as the historical background for a major revelation concerning the coming of the Savior or Messiah, “Christ,” promised by God-in veiled terms (Genesis 3:15)-from the first human failure. Isaiah uses the same framework to add a second, equally remarkable revelation. There, his conception will surpass all human experience, even that of Abraham, who is called to believe that God will give him a son, Isaac, despite the impossibility of the thing seen by men. Here the prophet emphasizes the divine nature of the Messiah, which helps to explain the extraordinary statement of the previous oracle.

    Isaiah lists four titles, each consisting of two terms.

    (1) “Wonderful Counselor,” that is, “the prophet par excellence,” his counsel is the counsel of God himself; he has the infallibility of all knowledge, because he has the Spirit of God without measure. (Isaiah 11:2; cf. John 3:34) He has the infallibility of all knowledge, because he has the Spirit of God without measure. This title associates him with the one God of Israel (cf. Isaiah 28:29, where Isaiah presents God himself in similar terms).

    The child will have extraordinary wisdom for the exercise of kingship; he will be like a new Solomon, even more glorious than he is. The anointing of the Spirit from which he will benefit may explain this extraordinary wisdom.

    This “child”, Jesus, is born for the benefit of sinners, as well as for the benefit of all believers throughout the world. His Love causes the wonder of angels and glorified saints. He is the “Counsellor” par excellence, for He knows God’s plans from the beginning; He counsels men for their own good. No one is capable of teaching like Him.

    2. “2. He is the “Mighty God” or “Strong God. Infallible in his verdicts, the unborn child will exercise, despite appearances (cf. Isaiah 53:2-10), the power to bring about divine justice (cf. Matthew 26:53) by virtue of his divine nature.

    3. “3. “Father of eternity. This expression means that this descendant of David will have an endless, eternal reign. This third attribute relates to the duration of his lordship, that is, without end (cf. the absence of a beginning, according to the statement of Jesus himself, John 17:5).

    4. “Prince of Peace”. This title emphasizes the ability of this king to establish lasting peace during his reign. (Isa 11:5-9) The title “Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 confirms the extraordinary nature of that king’s reign. It is more than the absence of armed conflict. The word “peace” (šalôm) indicates that his reign will be characterized by universal harmony and the complete fulfillment of all his subjects, forever delivered from fear. (1 John 4:18) This is the first time that the word “peace” has been used in the Bible. (1 John 4:18) The redeemed will live in perfect peace with their ruler. (Romans 5:1) The redeemed will live in unison with their ruler.

    As the Prince of Peace, He reconciles us to God; He is the One who gives peace in our hearts and consciences; and when His Kingdom is fully established, men will no longer seek to make war. His Peace will grow unceasingly, for the perpetual happiness of His people.

    Aloys Evina

     

    April 7, 2020 at 2:32 am#862284
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and LU,

    Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    The person who receives dominion you are given exactly what KIND of being he is. 

    PSALM 8 tells you that the ONE who created the heavens YHWH, becomes mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visits him, makes him a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, CROWNS this human being with glory and honor, and gives this human being dominion over that which YHWH created. The one who receives dominion IS NOT the ONE who created that which he receives dominion over. Thus as evident from this passage we can see clearly that all things that YHWH created He would have done so for the person He intended to give it to for to have eternal dominion over.  By REASON OF and FOR THIS HUMAN BEING did YHWH do the work that He did with HIS hands alone from the beginning. 

    Psalms 8 begins, “1 O YHWH our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.”

    The one that receives dominion is a HUMAN BEING, the one who gives it to him is YHWH our Lord, and HIS name is excellent. The human being who is given dominion overall, most certainly thus BECOMES a lord of lords. This human being is ordained by YHWH to judge the quick and the dead. As a lord judging the quick and the dead he does so not by his own eyes and ears, but through YHWH’s righteousness that directs all his ways.

    According to Luke 1, The CHILD to be born IS the son of David who WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. This child grows being filled with wisdom and YHWH’s GRACE is upon him, where he knows to choose the good over the evil.

    When this child is about 30 years old the Spirit descends like a dove and begets Jesus in full measure and power, for the purpose for him to be SENT to do YHWH’s work.

    This Jesus was MADE by the Spirit into the FORM of YHWH, he was the human being who YHWH said He would make a little lower than the angels.

    God’s righteous angels carry out YHWH’s will, just as Jesus is being SENT out to do, but unlike the angels who cannot die, Jesus is in the likeness of all men, he is still a mortal human able to be tempted and able to die. Though he can be tempted as he is still a man of mortal flesh, he cannot sin because he is also in the form of God. As YHWH had promised unto the son of Jesse he who would receive of the Spirit, it was a calling to righteousness where YHWH would direct all his ways, holding his hand and keeping him for to be a LIGHT unto all nations of people. That LIGHT is the life of men, where like a lamb without spot or blemish is sacrificed to bring forth salvation.

    HOW PERFECT, as YHWH’s WORD from the beginning was not ONLY salvation but WORD of a man who would come and execute that purpose. By that man we are told he justifies people from ALL THINGS. YHWH created all things by Himself with the purpose of LIFE, which that life comes from the very man spoken of by YHWH from the beginning.

    In this man is LIFE thus in this man did ALL things consist that had been made by YHWH alone in the beginning.

     

    April 7, 2020 at 2:48 am#862285
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Jesus is not God the Fathers word, he was not even in existence at the beginning John was talking about.  Jesus is no more God’s word the if I said I was your word. You are your own word,unless someone is quoting you,  you and your word are the same. SO IT IS WITH GOD, HE AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING.  why then did Jesus deny being GOD’S WORD, if what you say is true  SAYING “the words I am telling you “ARE NOT”,  my words, but the Words of him who sent me”, How much clearer can you get then that?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

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