Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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April 5, 2020 at 7:02 am#862219
Jodi
Participant
Hi Mike,
I am going to answer your question as to the topic of Jesus being flesh and bone by starting a new thread.
April 5, 2020 at 7:04 am#862220
mikeboll64
Blocked
Jodi: Luke 3:23 King James Bible
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…
The passage is telling you that Jesus IS the son of Joseph, and it is telling you that the people thought he was the son of Joseph. That which the people thought he was he was.
Are there other scriptures mentioning that X is the son of Y, which also include the words “as was supposed”?
April 5, 2020 at 7:08 am#862221
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You asked Berean this: “…what makes you think His first creation, Jesus, must necessarily have His nature?”
The fact that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON implies identical in nature to the One who beget. The fact the Jesus is the ONLY begotten to an eternally existent One implies that Jesus contains the same eternal nature as his Father. From the OO theory you can see that.
LU
April 5, 2020 at 7:12 am#862223
mikeboll64
Blocked
Jodi: Hi Mike,
I am going to answer your question as to the topic of Jesus being flesh and bone by starting a new thread.
In the meantime, could you tell me in this thread whether or not you believe Jesus was raised up in the same body in which he died… sans blood?
I’m also waiting for your answer about John 17:5. Did Jesus say that HE had glory alongside the Father before the world began?
April 5, 2020 at 7:15 am#862224
Lightenup
Participant
Mike you asked:
…That being said, please explain how two completely identical entities can have a different relationship with each other.
I have been trying to do that. The OO theory explains this. In binary fission, from one cell that goes through asexual reproduction, two identical cells are the result. They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.
April 5, 2020 at 7:48 am#862225
Jodi
Participant
Hi Mike,
The fact that we don’t read any other lineage that says “as was thought” in it, doesn’t change what you are being told. But I believe there is reason why in Jesus’s specific case those words are there. Did everyone know during the time Jesus was sent out to preach and perform miracles that he was born of a virgin? If they heard it, did everyone believe it? I doubt it. I believe it is because of this very reason “as was thought” were given by Luke. People assumed he was Joseph’s son, of which Luke tells us that he was.
I don’t believe it is wise to change the purpose God specifically gave for the virgin birth.
Nor ignore the fact that the child to be born IS the son of David and that he WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest.
Nor ignore that prophecy was that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God makes this son into His own Son.
Nor ignore the fact that you are told that the GENESIS of Jesus is by his genealogy being of Abraham and David through Joseph.
Nor ignore the fact that Jesus is called a human being and a son of a human being multiple times over. If Jesus was additionally of another kind, then he wouldn’t actually be a human being, he would be his own kind of being.
Who is Jesus now? He is a firstborn of many brethren, he is a firstborn of the dead, where his resurrection is our resurrection. Where he was raised being the son of David receiving the promised Holy Spirit, and we too are raised receiving that promise, where by such we are led by God, led by His Spirit in all things. Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
April 5, 2020 at 8:10 am#862226
Jodi
Participant
Hi Mike,
The prophecy fulfilled was that God would not allow Jesus’s body to see decay, it would be brought back to life before decay sat in.
Recall a few things Mike so that you can then apply them to Jesus’s words in John 17,
According to prophecy it is a man who sheds his blood for our sins, and because this man obeys God he is promised from God to receive a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong.
We read that Jesus being slain was according to God’s determined purpose and foreknowledge.
According to prophecy God was going to be mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visit him, have him suffer death, then God would crown him with GLORY and HONOR, and give this human dominion over all God’s works.
According to prophecy God was going to make David’s son into His own Son and give him his father David’s throne for all eternity.
When time was near for the Son of Man to be taken captive and crucified, he asked God for the glory that he (the Son of Man) had OF God before the world was.
Jesus knew full well the prophecies concerning him and what he was promised to receive according to those prophecies after he died. In Jesus asking God for the glory that was of God unto a man, declared from the beginning, he was declaring his FAITH in God’s word, that he believed in God’s promises concerning him.
April 5, 2020 at 8:38 am#862227
Berean
Participant
Hi Jodi

In collosians 1 this the end for
THOSE WHO WANT RESISTER THE TRUTH

TWO WORDS
dia and eiV
dia>>>> by, through. ..
eiV>>>>> for
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The TRUTH IS THAT ALL THINGS
WERE CREATED BY(dia) JESUS CHRIST
AND FOR(eiV) HIM

I will continue with other texts later
April 5, 2020 at 9:58 am#862231
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..the word of God “became flesh”, that doe not mean Jesus an enity other then God was existing with God in the beginning. It means Gods word about a flesh man has came about, it was the flesh man Jesus. Jesus was never GOD’S WORD, he plainly said the words he spoke to us were “not his”. He is called the word of God because he speaks “God’s the Fathers ” , words to us.
I tell you Mike Jesus did “not”, even exist until he was born on this earth. All those who say so a simply false teachers and those who say he is God are false teachers “2ths2 explains exactly what fallen Christanity has done. Read it and apply it to the “false image” of Jesus that fallen Christanity has created, this started way back at the very beginning in the time of John and Paul. This false teachings of Jesus being a God was started by the Gnostic’s, right at the very beginning .
Jesus told us clearly that the great deception would be about him, saying, “many would come in my name say I am and, decieve many, that has happened in all Christanity, they are preaching a false Christ.
HOPE you can come to see and understand this, I know Jodi does .
Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

April 5, 2020 at 10:14 am#862232
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean……Clever you left out the true meaning of the word “DIA” the word simply mean it was for the reason or purpose of. We have many clear scriptures the say it was God the Father alone, and by himself , that created everything that exists.
Using scriptures untruthfully and against so many others scriptures that prove you are wrong is exactly what false teachers do, you and Carmel make a good team. I hope others aren’t buying into your false confusions.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

April 5, 2020 at 12:18 pm#862236
carmel
Participant

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 5, 2020 at 12:20 pm#862237
carmel
Participant
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
2 Corinthians 7:1 If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed) but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ: above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter. 5For such an one I will glory: but for myself I will glory nothing but in my infirmities. 6For though I should have a mind to glory, I shall not be foolish: for I will say the truth. But I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth in me, or anything he heareth from me. 7And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me,
there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.
8For which thing, thrice I besought the Lord that it might depart from me. 9And he said to me:
My grace is sufficient for thee: for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that
the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10For which cause I please myself in my infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses,
for Christ. For when I am weak, then am I powerful.
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.
ME: I WISH YOU SEE THINGS FROM THE SPIRIT SIDE POINT OF VIEW WHEN YOU READ SCRIPTURE IN RELATION TO OUR ONE AND ONLY
ONE SAVIOUR
JESUS, despite
THE SON OF MAN
FLESH.
SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE, PLEASURE, AND GLORY OF
GOD THE FATHER IN THE KINGDOM OF
HIS SON OF HIS LOVE Colossians 1:13,14 ATTENTION PLEASE:
THOUGH PHYSICAL IT IS SPIRITUAL!
Pinpointed out by Jesus in
John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me,
I should lose nothing, ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS SPIRIT, eternal life, the Father’s substance, Hebrews 1:3, “THE WORD” Jesus’ FLESH, though FLESH it maintained IT’S SPIRIT! manifested on mount tabor.)
but should raise it up again
ON THE LAST DAY.
As clear as crystal JESUS “THE WORD” SPIRIT, WAS MADE FLESH, DIED IN HIS FLESH, but simply ERADICATED DEATH, Satan’s POWER, Hebrews 2:14 by
HIS OWN SPIRIT. ETERNAL LIFE. Thus
THE SON OF MAN,
“THE WORD” Jesus’flesh GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS ON HIS DEATH, John13:31,32, John17:2
ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST. JESUS SIMPLY SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY.
ON THE LAST DAY ON EARTH, on his death, in
JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD.
GODMAN ON EARTH
FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK!
IT IS HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO HIS WORK.
IN ONE INSTANT
JESUS DIED AND LIVED: GLORIFIED!
YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.
ME: THAT’S WHY JESUS IS ONE OF A KIND.
BECAUSE HE WAS “THE WORD”
A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH.
in all things like His brethren, likewise, HUMANS WERE SPIRITS, REBELLIOUS ANGELS, and became flesh through the process of THE WORLD, where Jesus, spirit was slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8) The only difference was that Jesus’ flesh was “THE WORD” of God hence:
FURNISHED BY THE FATHER, while humans were the substance of the cursed world.
Hebrews 10:5Wherefore, when he cometh into the world he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:
but a body thou hast fitted to me.
Luke 10:22 ALL THINGS (regarding the flesh) are delivered to me by my Father. ( OF THE HOLY GHOST, DIVINE,)
And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:
and who the Father is, but the Son and
to whom the Son will reveal him.
in his embodiment.
THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER,
HEBREWS 1:3 Who being
the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory and
the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance and
upholding all things by THE WORD of his (FATHER’S) power.
( the Father is POWER, The Holy Ghost is LOVE, while the Son is WISDOM)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO ANOINTED. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO SACRIFICE .(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO REDEEMER.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO CHRIST. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
Read:2 Corinthians 7:1-7 above!
Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is
the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS CHRIST)
which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)
was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT, (JESUS DIVINE)
(Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)
YOU: We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth.
NOT PRECISE IN RELATION TO YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING REGARDING JESUS OF NAZARETH.
THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.
cont.
Peace and love ib Jesus Christ

April 5, 2020 at 1:46 pm#862238
Berean
Participant
We have many clear scriptures that say that it is God the Father alone, and by Himself, who created everything that exists.
Using the scriptures falsely and against so many other scriptures that prove you wrong is exactly what false teachers do, you and Carmel make a good team. I hope others don’t believe your false confusions.
Gene
I can say the same thing. There are many texts that prove that God created all things through Jesus Christ. But you and Jodi make a good team to preach a false Christ and a false Gospel.
Can you just explain to me Colossians.
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Explain to me what’s in bold.
There’s a rehearsal if we understand like you and Jodi.
…everything was created for him and by him…
It seems strange
Don’t you think so?
Can you explain that?
April 5, 2020 at 2:15 pm#862239
Lightenup
Participant
Gene, where are the scriptures that say the Father alone created all things by Himself? I have seen where YHWH says that but not with the word “Father” in the context.
LU
April 5, 2020 at 2:45 pm#862240
Berean
Participant

To all
Here is also what I think. The revelations of God to his people are progressive … There is more light on the truth of who God is and who Jesus is in the New Testament than in the Old.
April 5, 2020 at 3:10 pm#862241
Berean
Participant
I meant that if we believe that “dia”
means “for” in Colossians 1: 16b (all things were created by him, and for him: KJV)
we have a rehearsal. I think this is rather “strange”
April 6, 2020 at 3:40 am#862244
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Lu……quite playing games, you as well as anyone here, should know that Isa 44:21 the word LORD (adonia) used there means the “Almighty God”. you should also know scriptures says clearly, “unto us there is “One” God and one mediator between God and men, the “MAN ” Jesus Christ “. and what Jesus himself said, “that they might know you, the “ONLY” true God, and Jesus Christ who you have sent.
Now if you truly believe what God the Father said, and what Paul said and what Jesus also said. You should have no trouble knowing it was the all mighty God, “the Father”, who created everything that exists and he did it alone and by himself. If you people can’t except those clear scriptures as truth, then you haven’t even began to know the truth yet.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
April 6, 2020 at 3:54 am#862245
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean, you said there is more enlighten on who God is and who Jesus is in the new teatement, then the old, “bad form”, you couldn’t be more wrong even if you tried, it is the old Testement that clearly show exactly who Jesus is. You saying that explains why you believe in a false Christ, not the one mentioned in scriptures. The old and the New Testements both agree with eachother on who Jesus was and is.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
April 6, 2020 at 5:07 am#862248
Jodi
Participant
Good Morning Lightenup,
YOU:Gene, where are the scriptures that say the Father alone created all things by Himself? I have seen where YHWH says that but not with the word “Father” in the context.
ME: In the chapter that speaks of YHWH himself creating heaven, earth, and man, He speaks of His SONS, so thus YHWH is recognized as the FATHER.
In this chapter you are reading that which is the WILL of the FATHER, you are reading that which is TO BE DONE ON EARTH, and you are reading that the Father wants people to do His will.
Jesus asks us to pray unto our Father recognizing that His will be done. Jesus tells us that those who follow the will of his Father are his brothers and sisters.
Luke 11: 22 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
The Hallowed name of the Father in Isaiah 45 IS YHWH, and He by HIMSELF created heaven, earth and man.
Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts…17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
The Son has his OWN NAME, and the Father has his OWN NAME. The Father’s OWN name is YHWH, and the Son’s OWN name is Jesus, and “every tongue should confess that Jesus the anointed is lord, TO THE GLORY OF God THE FATHER”
Recall, 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Jesus didn’t say hallowed be OUR NAME, the Father clearly has HIS OWN NAME. Jesus preached that which was to be done on earth according to the will of the Father. That which Jesus spoke that were not his words concerning the will of the Father, they were the Father’s words, and we read of that same will of the Father in Isaiah 45.
In chapter 45, you have the Father’s will, the Father’s words, and you hear Him tell you that He created heaven, earth, and man HIMSELF,
Very simple Lightenup, in Isaiah 45 you are reading of the will of the Father, what is to be done on earth, and it is this Father who created earth by Himself, and His will was for it to be inhabited, He made it not in vain. You are told in Psalms 8 that which He made, His purpose was to give it to a HUMAN BEING to have dominion over it.
In chapter 45 the Father speaks of this HUMAN BEING, the Father raises him up in righteousness and directs all His ways so that he will deliver YHWH our Father’s captives. This is the same man of Isaiah 46, YHWH our Father declared from the beginning things not yet done, a man would come whom YHWH would call to execute His purpose of salvation. All things YHWH made himself, He did so by reason of and for this human being who was promised to receive dominion overall the works of YHWH our Father’s hands.

April 6, 2020 at 5:10 am#862249
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Gene
i don’t believe anyone here is playing games. This discussion is serious.
Regarding your claim that Isaiah 44:21 has Adonia (Lord) in it, it is not there. Even in the whole chapter of Isaiah 44, Adonia (Lord ) is not there. You are confusing the name YHWH (LORD) with Adonia.
Can you even admit that, Gene? Now where is the word “Father” in a passage as if it was the Father alone who created all things. I know that you can show that YHWH did that. I agree that YHWH alone created all things but I realize that YHWH manifest himself as God of gods AND Lord of lords and I know that there is one God, the Father AND one Lord who is Jesus Christ. And I know that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords. YHWH manifests himself in the two persons of Father and Son.
That understanding will open up the beauty of the gospel to you.
Blessings, LU
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ONE SAVIOUR

JESUS, despite

FLESH.

HIS SON OF HIS LOVE Colossians 1:13,14 ATTENTION PLEASE:

THOUGH PHYSICAL IT IS SPIRITUAL!

I should lose nothing, ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS SPIRIT, eternal life, the Father’s substance, Hebrews 1:3, “THE WORD” Jesus’ FLESH, though FLESH it maintained IT’S SPIRIT! manifested on mount tabor.)

ON THE LAST DAY.

HIS OWN SPIRIT. ETERNAL LIFE. Thus

THE SON OF MAN,

ON THE LAST DAY ON EARTH, on his death, in

GODMAN ON EARTH

FURNISHED BY THE FATHER, while humans were the substance of the cursed world.

in his embodiment.

was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT, (JESUS DIVINE)

THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.

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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

ONE SAVIOUR

JESUS, despite

FLESH.

HIS SON OF HIS LOVE Colossians 1:13,14 ATTENTION PLEASE:

THOUGH PHYSICAL IT IS SPIRITUAL!

I should lose nothing, ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS SPIRIT, eternal life, the Father’s substance, Hebrews 1:3, “THE WORD” Jesus’ FLESH, though FLESH it maintained IT’S SPIRIT! manifested on mount tabor.)

ON THE LAST DAY.

HIS OWN SPIRIT. ETERNAL LIFE. Thus

THE SON OF MAN,

ON THE LAST DAY ON EARTH, on his death, in

GODMAN ON EARTH

FURNISHED BY THE FATHER, while humans were the substance of the cursed world.

in his embodiment.

was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT, (JESUS DIVINE)

THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.

Recent Replies

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