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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 19,821 through 19,840 (of 25,952 total)
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  • March 29, 2020 at 1:15 pm#851052
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 29, 2020 at 1:30 pm#851053
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.

    LIES!

    JESUS NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS NOT SPIRIT

    HE CONFIRMED THAT

    THOUGH HE IS A SPIRIT HE ALSO HAS

    FLESH AND BONES

    Luke 39:See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.

    Genesis 18:

    And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.

    Sarah Laughs at the Promise

    9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 29, 2020 at 1:50 pm#851054
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

     

    March 29, 2020 at 4:38 pm#851064
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.  That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed.  So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”.  And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.

    Secondly, lose the “parent/offspring” terminology.  For your analogy to be considered valid, we must have a FATHER and a SON – because that is the relationship both Jesus and his God have described.

    Thirdly, cells don’t begin with a fixed amount of “substance” that then gets cut in half when they separate – leaving each cell with only half of the substance the original one started with.  More substance is always being generated, and when enough NEW substance is produced, the cell can divide, making a new cell out of that new substance.  So not even the substance of the original cell and the new cell is the same age.

    My response:

    Suffice it to say that you have not looked at the cell reproduction videos that I linked you to or if you did look, you need to revisit them because you are not correct in your thinking that one of the two identical cells has new substance in it while the other has original substance in it. That is not how it works. The original cell becomes two distinct cells,  and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them, also each distinct cell contains half of the original cell’s nucleus. Each distinct cell ends up with the same substance within them, part original and part newly made.

    Here are the videos once again:

    DNA Replication   https://youtu.be/TNKWgcFPHqw

    Binary Fission   https://youtu.be/OAcz-tFGY0Y

    I understand that this is a concept that gets you thinking about a topic you probably barely touched on in high school. I have had a while to absorb the info. Take your time, mull it over for awhile. I believe that you will see it differently than the way you have been. This cell theory has probably been one of my biggest “AH HA” moments since I have been studying the deity of Christ, at least 27 years. It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.

    Stay well, LU

    March 29, 2020 at 4:52 pm#851065
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    Yes Jeremiah 33 is about Jesus

    Compare with Zachariah 3

    [8] Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

    There is only one God who can guide you, if you want to, and it is YAHWEH who is above all.
    Why do you ask me such questions?

     

    March 29, 2020 at 4:56 pm#851068
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Mike for addressing the quiz with this answer:

    Lightenup:  And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
    MIke answer: Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    Here is the quiz being referred to:

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?

    2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

    Thanks for answering that Mike. I have another quiz here:

    Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:

    “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

    Please answer this, there is a reason and it’s good. LU

    March 29, 2020 at 5:50 pm#851069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: As for John 1:3, unless the Word himself and the Word’s God were two of the “all things” that were made through the Word, then “other” is clearly intended – just as it was intended in 1 Cor 15:27. The only difference in the two is that John didn’t add the obvious disclaimer spelling this out, while Paul did.

    The context of John 1: 1-3 establishes the existence of the Word and the God that the Word was with in the beginning. Then verse three refers to everything that was made was made through the Word. So, before everything was made through the Word, nothing was made. The eternal Father and eternal Son were not made otherwise they would not be eternal. The word “other” would change the verse to imply that the Father and/or the Word were made. The word “other” is clearly not there because the Father and the Word were not made, they were eternal. You want to put “other” there because you don’t believe that the Son can be eternal. He is the same age as his Father and shares the name of Jehovah.

    Goodnight my friend, LU.

    March 29, 2020 at 11:06 pm#851073
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

    BACK TO SQUARE ONE AGAIN: WITH EVERY RESPECT:

    CARNAL MINDED REASONING

     

    . for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as ye see me have. (despite a spirit, the fact that JESUS came through walls)

    Jodi answer:

    If for the sake of our argument,

    THE ROMANS ENTERED AND CUT JESUS’ HEAD OFF 

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF

    JESUS COULD ONLY DIE ONCE!

    Genesis 18:3

    And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.

    Sarah Laughs at the Promise

    9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.

     

    Jodi the above is a clear picture that

    though THE LORD IN THREE PERSONS 

    PRESENTED HIMSELF AS HUMANS, IN ACTUAL FACT 

    THE LORD WAS NOT IN THE AUTHENTIC HUMAN CURSED MORTAL SATANIC FLESH! believe it or not it’s your problem.

    HE WAS IN HIS OWN GENUINE SUBSTANCE AS 

    FLESH

    LIKE ADAM WAS ON HIS CREATION.

    THE FLESH BODY WE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WOULD POSSESS:

    THE NEW JERUSALEM

     

    John 10:9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in,

    he shall be saved:

    and he shall go in ( SPIRIT, TO CREATE IN TOTAL BLISS)

    and go out, (FLESH TO LIVE IN THE NEW WORLD)and

    shall find pastures. ( REMAINS IN TOTAL BLISS IN THE SPIRIT)

     

    John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:

    that of all that he hath given me, (OUT OF HIS SUBSTANCE, BOTH SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL)

    I should lose nothing; (DESPITE HE DIED)

    but should raise it up again in the last day. (PRECISELY IN THE LAST DAY IN THIS WORLD ON HIS DEATH THE CROSS, GLORIFIED BOTH IN

     

    SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST, and FLESH BODY: IN “THE WORD” 

    John4:And he that reapeth (THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD) receiveth wages and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he (“THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN)that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. (ON THE CROSS IN ONE GLORY) 37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man (THE SON OF MAN)that soweth, and it is another(THE SON OF GOD) that reapeth.

    Matthew 13:36 Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good seed is

    the Son of man. 

     

    THUS JESUS GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS

    TWO IN ONE  SPIRITUAL/FLESH BODY   in the FATHER’S substance  Hebrews 1:3

     

    JESUS CHRIST 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    March 30, 2020 at 12:43 am#851075
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Creation is created by God through his Word. The Word was with God. God created all through the Son of God. The son came from the Father. Begotten of the Father was he. The only one. Between God and man.

    March 30, 2020 at 2:05 am#851076
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen T8

    That’s the lesson of Hebrews 1.

    such as Colossians 1 and John 1.

     

    March 30, 2020 at 3:53 am#851077
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: So how do you address the fact that Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the FLESH, where David foresaw that his flesh would not see decay?

    Jesus’ flesh didn’t see decay.

    Jodi:  He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.

    He was not a spirit at that time, but still had flesh and bones.  He was raised from the dead in the same non-decayed flesh body in which he died.  He had 40 more days of work to do on earth in the flesh before he ascended to heaven.  But could he enter the Kingdom of God in heaven as flesh and bone?  He himself told us no.  He told us that in the resurrection, we’d be like the angels.  Angels aren’t flesh creatures.  Paul later went into great detail about how the bodies of those whose dwelling would be in heaven would be changed from flesh to spirit. (1 Cor 15)

    Jodi:  The people who witnessed him ascend were told that same Jesus would descend.

    And it will be the same Jesus who comes on the clouds.  When Jesus was transfigured, he was still the same Jesus.  But God was giving those apostles a glimpse of what this same Jesus would look like when he was restored to his former glory in heaven.

    Jodi:  He can most certainly provide Mary’s egg with the needed chromosomes equating to Joseph’s sperm.  The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7 has NOTHING to do with God sending down a spirit son to be a man, it has nothing to do with God creating a one of a kind being…

    You words appear to contradict themselves, Jodi.  What other human being has chromosomes equating to their flesh father’s sperm that were personally made and inserted by God?  Whether he preexisted or not, you can’t deny that – even before God’s Spirit descended upon him as his baptism – Jesus of Nazareth was already a one of a kind being.  And if you can accept that scriptural teaching, then the number of ways in which he was a one of a kind being no longer matter to the bottom line.

    And remember, I didn’t just wake up one day and WANT Jesus to have preexisted his time on earth.  I gleaned this information directly from many different scriptures… which we have just begun to discuss.

     

    March 30, 2020 at 4:05 am#851078
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  But none of them say that Jesus was made, sorry.

    They actually do when you allow the scriptures to teach you instead of the other way around.

    “the firstborn of every creature” 

    “the beginning of the creation by God”

    “God created me as the first of his works”

    “before the mountains were made, I was given birth”

    “his origin is from ancient times, days of old”

    “today I have begotten a son”

    “I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God”

    “Lord, you alone created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them… protect us by the name of your holy servant Jesus”

     

    Fellow Christians, these scriptures make it hard to deny that Jesus was not only made by his and our God, Jehovah… but that he was the first thing made by Jehovah.  Jesus is God’s first creation, which means he existed long before God sent him to be born of a woman on earth.

    March 30, 2020 at 4:23 am#851079
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Hi Mike,

    YOU: Or from His holy servant Jesus,

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

    Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
    In the above Mike

    WHO SERVES WHO?

    Well, let’s sort it out then.  Pharaoh once bestowed great honor, authority and riches on Joseph, right?  He gave Joseph his signet ring, and decreed that none was greater than Joseph in the entire land of Egypt – save Pharaoh himself, right?  So did Pharaoh’s act of bestowing great things on Joseph imply that Pharaoh was now a servant of Joseph?  Did his generous actions equate to Pharaoh “serving” Joseph – as if he was Joseph’s subordinate?

    What say you?   Was it a case of the master giving good things to his servant?  Or was it a case of the servant giving good things to his master?

    March 30, 2020 at 4:41 am#851080
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..You completely ignored the scripture I posted, as if it weren’t in the scriptures. How can we ever have to have a honest dialogue if you constantly do that. We should all deal with scriptures others post IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    March 30, 2020 at 4:51 am#851081
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …I would like to know about Kerwin also, I wonder if anyone knows , he had a sever kidney problem, I tride to search for him but was unable to find him.  Would love to know if he is OK .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    March 30, 2020 at 5:16 am#851082
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    with -para, from, of 

    glorify though me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had of thee before the world was.

    Okay, but it’s the same phrase both times… “glorify me para you with the glory I had para you…”.  You can choose to say the latter “para” means “from” out of personal preference, but you can’t deny that Jesus is still saying that HE had glory with or from God before the world was, right?  It’s not “with the glory you’ve been holding for me” since before the world was, right?  Rather, it’s “with the glory I HAD“ before the world was.  Seems clear enough to me that the conscious entity Jesus is talking to his God about a glory that the conscious entity Jesus had before the world was.

    Jodi:  Mike it doesn’t make sense to me at all that God needed to send down an only begotten son to be a man, for then to have that man be able to do nothing of himself.

    Even when Jesus was existing alongside his God before the world was, he could do nothing of himself.  Now, being back at the right hand of his God with all kinds of power bestowed upon him, he can still do nothing of himself.  Not one creature in the history of the world can do anything of themselves – Jesus included.  Any power that you, I, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, or Jesus has comes from the Most High God.  We live by a loan of God’s spirit – which returns to Him when we die.  Man cannot take one step without power given to him by God.  So none of us can ever do a single thing of ourselves – whether or not we preexisted in heaven before becoming a human being.

    Jodi:  Scripture does not tell me that Jesus received the Spirit because he was already a Son of God having been sent to earth. Scripture tells me that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing and was sent, as it was a promise from God to be fulfilled in the son of Jesse.

    Scripture actually tells you both of those things… but you only accept one of them. 😉  I’ll wait for your response about John 17:5.  Then maybe we can discuss another scripture.

    Jodi:  This word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus spoken by the prophet Isaiah, I believe was indeed God’s word before the world began.

    That’s almost how I’d word it too.  Except this particular “Word of God” is a title given to God’s preeminent spokesman.  The king of ancient Abyssinia had a spokesman called “Kal Hatze” – which means “the word of the king”.  In Abyssinia, the subjects would air their complaints, concerns and requests to “The Word of the King”, and he would then pass them on to the King.  The King would pass his answer on to “The Word of the King”, and he would relay the King’s words back to the subjects.  The subjects never had a direct audience with the King himself.  It was always passed through this “mediator”, who had as his title “The Word of the King”.  Sound familiar?

    Jesus has the title “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman, and a mediator between us and God.  But we can talk in much more depth about that when we talk about John 1.  Right now, I’ll wait to hear your thoughts about my comments on John 17:5.

     

    March 30, 2020 at 5:21 am#851083
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Hi Carmel,

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

    Agreed.

    March 30, 2020 at 5:55 am#851084
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…. you say you believe in the preexistence of Jesus. Can you produce any scriptures that say he was alive before his existence on this earth, as a human being?

    I am not talking about prophetic scriptures of him comming into his existence, but actual scriptures that show any activity or  action of him before berth on this earth.    Also please give us any reason for him to have previously existed , what would that demonstrate for humanity, if he was already a perfect being , how could he ever say “to him that overcomes “even as,  I have”,  if in fact he was already perfect from the very beginning,  what did he have to overcome “even as” we do?    the words “even as I have” makes that person exactly the same as those he is addressing.

    Also what kind of example would a preexisting being,  living in a preexisting  state of existence of any kind,  be to us?   What great purpose or example would that be?  I believe giving that kind of advantage over us, goes against the whole purpose of the existence of Jesus in the first place. I also believe the only advantage the man Jesus had was he was forordained, to be the only human being to have never sinned, because  then that would given him  the right to atone for the rest of human kind. So he had to be “exactly” like us in “every” way, with out exception.  

    SATAN’S PLAN, from the get go , was to make Jesus appear different then we are. He accomplished this by turning “image” of , the man Jesus into a GOD.  Why?,   because that belife, would then seperates him from us, this “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, was instigated by Satan himself,  by the “GNOSTIC’S “,  at the very time of the apostles Paul and John.  Those were the ones John coined as the ANTICHRISTS,  because they turned a ordinary flesh and blood  human being in to a GOD.

    So today we don’t have  this any longer,  “unto us there is “one” God and one mediator between God and men , “the MAN” Jesus Christ. 

    We have today instead,  three Gods, and one is a mediator between men and the God, the God Jesus Christ, but wate he can’t be a Christ because he was already a God , why would a God need to be anointed by a God?   That is exactly why John coined them, “anti-anointers” or antichrists.  They simply did not believe Jesus as a God needed to be anointed with anything, Seening he  was already a God.  With that understanding go read what I wrote on “2ths2” and it should clearly show how “the man of sin” , is not a real person,  but a “false image” of Jesus himself being a God,  created by Satan himself and nearly all of Christanity has fallen for “the big lie” about Jesus himself. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

     

    March 30, 2020 at 6:02 am#851085
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: The original cell becomes two distinct cells,  and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them…

    So then God changed?  He has grown new substance that He didn’t have previously, and so his makeup is now a mixture of what He used to be – and some new substance that wasn’t there before?

    Kathi:  It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.

    But it’s not actually a “real life example” at all.  First of all, cells aren’t sentient beings – which should go without saying.  Nor are fathers and sons ever identical – even in the case of Jesus and his God Jehovah.  But you still keep avoiding the point I keep making…

    As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.  That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed.  So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”.  And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.

    In your scenario, was there a time when only ONE cell existed?  Yes.  So if there ever comes a time when a second cell exists, that original cell will always be older than the second one.  Always.

    In your scenario, is the second cell brought forth into existence as the result of something the first cell did?  Yes.  So the second cell will always owe its very existence to the first cell.  In fact, you could say that the first cell was the God of the second cell, since #1 created #2.

    Understand?  First there was only ONE.  Then that one created a DIFFERENT one.  And if that different one was completely identical, then the Father and the Son are completely identical.  Is that your claim?

    And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son.  So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son.  Is that your claim?

    There are many reasons your cell analogy doesn’t work – not the least of which is that God is not a cell that divides into an identical copy of Himself.  😎

    March 30, 2020 at 6:12 am#851086
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Yes Jeremiah 33 is about Jesus.

    Jeremiah 33:16

    In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely, and this is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

    Please explain.  Is the city of Jerusalem actually Jesus?  I don’t get it.

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