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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • March 24, 2020 at 6:11 pm#850837
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Revelation 3:14 King James Bible
    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    ME: 

    Coll 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the CHURCHES. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    This was God’s WORD before the world was, GLORY and HONOR unto a man who is a beginning that was declared in God’s WORD from the beginning.

    Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 

    And also God’s WORD from the beginning speaking of another BEGINNING, God’s pleasure that He made all things by reason of and for. 

    1 Chronicles 17: And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 

     YOU: First spirit entity brought forth by God.ME: –NO scripture says such, that is a doctrine from men created through interpretation. 
    YOU: Transformed into flesh for 33 years. ME: NO scripture says such, that is a doctrine from men created through interpretation. 
    YOU: Back in heaven now as a spirit entity again – sitting at the right hand of his Father and God. ME:scripture directly tells you that it is the Son of Man that sits at God’s right hand, the man raised from the dead having received the promised Holy Spirit, and having been raised fulfilling Psalms 2, being the son of David begotten by God. 

    This is not interpretation – it’s just what God’s word says, “30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Such was God’s WORD declared from the beginning, and the one who sits on the throne who is of FLESH that received the promised Holy Spirit upon the resurrection of the dead, IS the beginning.

    Adam was the beginning OF sin and death, whereas the last Adam Jesus, who is a son of David and a Son of God according to the Spirit, is the beginning of righteousness and life.  

    God would not have MADE the beginning with the first Adam, if it were not for Jesus the last Adam. This Jesus was with God IN His WORD from the beginning. 

    March 24, 2020 at 8:44 pm#850839
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi

    You:

    “God created all things through man that would justify people of all things. What you believe doesn’t work with the scriptures given to Berean. Jesus made all things by God, by the Spirit of God having come to rest upon Him without measure. Jesus was sent to preach, to deliver the captives from darkness, to die, and to justify people from all things. Without the Spirit of God, He could do nothing of Himself, and according to this Spirit, He was a Son of God. All things consist in him, who received the Spirit without measure, who went to the cross shedding his blood, for without him God would not have done all things.”

    Jodi

    You take the texts that speak of the creation of all things and apply them to redemption. …it’s your choice.
    In the meantime, you hide the fact that Christ is the creative agent of the Father and that through Him all things were created.
    Jesus is of divine origin, that you can NEVER take Him away from my heart. …it is an eternal and immortal truth…

    God bless

    March 24, 2020 at 9:58 pm#850840
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    You:

    “I get it. Having a divine nature therefore does NOT make someone a god – let alone the Almighty, the supreme God of gods. We agree. We also seem to agree that Jesus is NOT the supreme God of gods. But do you agree with the scripture that Jesus is the servant of the Most High God – and that the Most High God is not only our God, but also Jesus’ God?

    If you come to that point, you will preach according to what the Scriptures – and Jesus Himself – actually teach.”

    Mike

    Be careful

    THAT’S NOT WHAT I SAID.

    I SAID:

    PARTICIPATING IN THE DIVINE NATURE DOESN’T MAKE US…
    GODS, AND DON’T MAKE US DIVINE…

    YOU SAY:

    HAVING a divine nature therefore does NOT make one a god.

    LISTEN TO ME

    JESUS IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD (FATHER)

    BUT HE HAS THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS
    FATHER, WHICH IS WHY
    IN JOHN 1 IT SAYS
    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    NOW

    THE WORD “GOD”

    Globally it expresses: An important person such as a magistrate for example

    And of course THE SUPREME AND ONLY TRUE LIVING GOD

    We can also say that Jesus is a god (theos/elohiym) because he is A VERY IMPORTANT PERSON

    THEOS(Greek)….of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:–X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

    THE WORD: “god” is also applied for thé “angels”

    Psalms 8:5
    For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels(elohiym), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    elohiym(hebrew)
    el-o-heem’.

    plural of ”elowahh” (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty

     

    God and His Son bless

    March 25, 2020 at 4:00 am#850847
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lightenup……if you are saying The God who was in Jesus, created all things , that in my opinion would be correct. But God in a person does not make the person God is in,  a God.   Is that what you are saying?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    March 25, 2020 at 4:19 am#850849
    Berean
    Participant

    He that descended(THE WORD) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he (THE WORD MADE FLESH)might fill all things.)

    March 25, 2020 at 4:48 am#850850
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I believe that God did create all things by reason of and for the anointed Jesus, for the firstborn of the dead, for the man said to have been raised from the dead from among those who sleep the sleep of death rising first having been made the firstfruits, being a man having his FLESH not see decay as he was raised in glory, in power, incorruptible, receiving the promised Holy Spirit, being begotten by God on that day. Many were witnesses to him where he said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones, and some even witnessed him ascend up where he would then sit at God’s right hand as a Son of Man, where the people were told that THIS SAME JESUS who they watched ascended is he that will descend. You are told that the Son of Man is returning in glory, where he ACCORDING TO THE FLESH will sit on his father David’s throne. You are told that we are to be made in the image of God’s Son who is the firstborn of many brethren, and that those who are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. You are told that it is by a Son of Man who will judge the quick and the dead and he does so being LED by God, NOT judging by his own eyes and ears. 

    Prophecy was of a man of the seed of Abraham, Jesse, and David to come, prophecy was that one from Israel specifically the tribe of Judah would come to be a ruler, and God declared his coming from the beginning.  

    Matthew 1 tells you directly the GENESIS and GENEALOGY of Jesus, him being the son of David the son of Abraham. His virgin birth was for a sign unto the house of David fulfilled, God’s promise that one of David’s sons would sit on David’s throne and deliver the people from their enemies. As Chronicles 17 gave prophecy that Jesus would be of David’s sons, we are given those sons in Matthew, where through the power of God’s Spirit, as with God all things are possible, Jesus is the son of Joseph having his genes, making him genetically linked to David and to Abraham. 

    Luke 1 tells you directly that he is the son of David according to 1 Chronicles 17 where Jesus is to be called the Son of the Highest, and God is going to give him his father David’s throne where he will rule over the house of Jacob forever. 

    Mark and John begin their gospel wherein chapters 1 we read of the Spirit coming to abode upon Jesus, called AN ANOINTING, where God declares THIS Jesus to be His Son, and we see this is the TIMING of WHEN Jesus is SENT out into the world. His FLESH is the bread from heaven, where the anointed Son of Man is sent to save that which was lost. His anointing was for him to PREACH God’s word, declare that which was God’s WORD before the world was, and for him to fulfill God’s WORD that God DECLARED before the world was. The man who received God’s Spirit without measure BEGAN to give God’s WORD of the Gospel starting in Galilee. Before his COMING John the Baptist prepared his way. 

    Scripture tells us prophecy of a man to come, then we read of this man’s birth, then we read of this man being anointed and sent, we read that this man dies on the cross and that God raises this man from the dead where he appears to many and then this man goes to sit at God’s right hand, and we are promised that this man is going to return and sit on his father David’s throne ruling over the house of Jacob forever, where this man who is the son of David is declared a Son of God with power according to God’s Spirit by his resurrection from the dead. This fits perfectly with the prophecy of Psalms 2 where we are told of it’s fulfillment in Acts, where upon Jesus rising from the dead God begat David’s son making him into His own Son where he has eternal life sitting on an eternal throne, and where he IS made the firstborn of many brethren.

    Jesus went to the cross having FAITH in God’s WORD that was spoken by the prophets, that was spoken by himself as God taught him, that was declared by God being of God’s determined purpose before the world was, that WORD of God was that the son of David’s flesh would not see decay, that he was going to be begotten by God and receive the promised Holy Spirit and the mercies of David, that he would be crowned with glory and honor and be given dominion overall the works of God’s hands where he would rule through God directing all of his ways, where he would sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh governing over the house of Jacob forever. 

     

     

    March 25, 2020 at 5:31 am#850851
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi

    The subject is: WHO IS “THE WORD”?
    Yes  or  no  ?
    THE BIBLE SAYS THAT “THE WORD” IS CHRIST HIMSELF. (JOHN 1; REVELATION 19)
    THE WORD THAT WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD WHO MADE THE CHOICE TO COME TO OUR EARTH.
    TO GIVE US THE LIVING DEMONSTRATION, HAVING CLOTHED OUR FLESH LIKE THAT OF SIN, OF WALKING BY
    THE FAITH THAT ACTS OUT OF LOVE, THUS REVEALING THE CHARACTER OF THE CELESTIAL FATHER.
    Romans 8
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    God bless

    March 25, 2020 at 6:54 am#850852
    Ed J
    Participant

    For you, Edj
    (1) What’s “divinity”?
    or rather (2) who?

    Hi Berean,

    noun: divinity

    1.
    the state or quality of being divine.

    2. God and God’s Son

    March 25, 2020 at 7:02 am#850853
    Ed J
    Participant

    Me:

    Excuse me but reading your last post, I see that for you, God didn’t create anything…
    through Christ (heaven and earth…etc)
    The work of the cross is not to be confused with the work of God’s creation through Christ although the work of the cross is equally important.

    Hi Berean,

    1) Look carefully at the following…

    24 “I the LORD that maketh all things;
    that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
    that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad;
    that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;” (Isaiah 44:24-25)

    March 25, 2020 at 7:06 am#850854
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:He that descended(THE WORD) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he (THE WORD MADE FLESH)might fill all things.)

    ME:

    Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he,ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up*, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 

    Psalms 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth. They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes. 

    LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH represents DEATH Berean, Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth means that he died. Before he ascended to heaven he first DIED and then was raised from the dead and appeared to many and continued to preach God’s Gospel promising them that the Holy Spirit would come and make some prophets, some apostles, some teachers to bring more into faith. Then this Jesus that was raised from the lower parts of the earth having his flesh not see decay but raised in glory, power, incorruptible ascended to heaven, where we are told that it IS THIS SAME JESUS who will return. 

    The Son of Man sits at God’s right hand, the Son of Man returning in great power and glory (Luke 22 Acts 7, Mark 13) !! 

    Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 

    Berean, A man of the seed of David fulfills all things, and this man is God’s word of prophecy made true in his flesh.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fullfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    God’s WORD of Isaiah 11, 42, and 61 made true in the man of FLESH Jesus of Nazareth,

    Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. ..17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 

    There is NO pre-existing JESUS who was God’s word that spoke creation into existence. There was NO spirit son WITH glory. A son of Jesse was promised to receive God’s glory, where God said He would not give it to any other, that glory was given to the son of David for the purpose that this Son of Man would fulfill all of God’s will. That glory was God giving His Spirit not by measure, called an ANOINTING, a man of the FLESH being FILLED with GRACE and TRUTH having been the only mortal man BEGOTTEN of God’s Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD. 

    Berean and ALL,

    THIS is NOT a LIE, but the clear truth so many of you REFUSE to ADMIT.

    THIS is God’s WORD made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth,

    Isaiah 11: 1 there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    RECALL Isaiah 42 also speaking of the one who God rests His Spirit upon, “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another”

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Luke 1:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan,

    John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Jesus was begotten of God’s Spirit, an anointing, filled with grace and truth, raised up a prophet from among thy brethren TO SPEAK God’s WORD and he speaks God’s word as you are told because God gave Jesus the Spirit not by measure. 

    The people didn’t behold the glory of an only begotten spirit son who emptied himself and became a man who could do nothing of himself, they beheld the glory of Jesus of Nazareth who was God’s word made true in his flesh when God begot him with the fullness of His Spirit filling him with grace and truth as he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD, GLORY WHICH God said that He would not give to any other. 

    Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    The people DID NOT behold the glory of a begotten spirit son who became a man, they beheld the glory of Jesus of Nazareth , God’s word spoken before the world was made true in the flesh, when God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with His Spirit and with power sending him out to do good things for God was with him. 

    You are directly told that God created all things himself there was no other, and you are directly that He declared things from the beginning that were not yet done, that God created heaven, earth, and man not in vain but with a PURPOSE of which He would cause to happen. You are directly GIVEN the PURPOSE, and that from the beginning God’s WORD was of a man to come who would execute His purpose. 

    All things consist in the man of God’s word from the beginning who would execute God’s purpose. Through him, this man to come, God made all things, as all things of God’s purpose would be executed through him and it would be also for him.  

    Was God’s purpose before the world was to bring eternal life? YES 

    Did God execute that purpose through the man Jesus of Nazareth?  YES

    Did Jesus himself receive eternal life being raised firstborn of the dead? YES

    Was Jesus made perfect becoming our source for eternal salvation through his blood on the cross? YES

    Is it God’s word that a man would receive dominion over all of God’s works? YES

     

     

     

    March 25, 2020 at 7:20 am#850855
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Below you will see that Jesus is a MAN, not the Creator of all things. The man Jesus and his time was determined before the world was. This man wasn’t a spirit son pre-existing as God word, he is a man who God ordained to judge the world in righteousness.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Jesus is the man who God in the beginning created all things by reason of and for, the man who would execute God’s eternal purpose. 

    March 25, 2020 at 8:14 am#850856
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi ya Gene,

    Jehovah is both the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son). Jehovah is not God of gods apart from His Son who is the Lord of lords. Together they created as one creator Jehovah God. They did not act separately, they acted interdependently, united in their Holy Spirit as one spirit.

    Blessings, LU

    March 25, 2020 at 10:31 am#850864
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Hi Edj

     

    But for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom all things are, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6

    When we are puzzled over certain Old Testament texts
    (not you apparently on this topic) I was
    well I trust the New Testament.

    What I do know is that there is no darkness in God or in his word.

    On the present subject
    When it says “myself”

    In reality God the Father really did not need HIS Son to create the worlds when at the possibility of creating, HE COULD GOD HIM
    POWERFUL CREATES EVERYTHING CHOOSES WITHOUT ITS WIRE AND WE ARE IN DOUBT WITHOUT PROBLEM
    So my answer is that although overall in the Old Testament is said that God was alone to create the worlds and that in the New Testament, there are texts that say otherwise (John 1- Hebrews 1- Colossians 1 …) I prefer to rely on the New Testament.

    God bless

    March 25, 2020 at 10:36 am#850866
    Berean
    Participant

    I have an answer why God created His WORD by His Son …

    FOR LATER…
    GOD BLESS.

    March 25, 2020 at 12:10 pm#850867
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold;

    mine elect,  in whom my soul  delighteth;

    I have put my Spirit upon him:

    Jodi, I HAVE PUT  is in the PRESENT PERFECT TENSE.

    AN ACTION INITIATED/COMPLETED IN THE PAST AND CARRIED ON TO THE FUTURE.

    Thus: When Isaiah spoke those words,

    JESUS “THE WORD” PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT, and God HAS ALREADY PUT HIS SPIRIT/THE HOLY GHOST UPON HIM.

    Confirmed in the same verse:

    IN WHOM MY SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, DELIGHTETH. 

    Again DELIGHTETH is in the SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE.  A REFERENCE TO THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.

    THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS 

    OF THE HOLY GHOST.

    Thus “THE WORD” Jesus the Son of Man, JESUS’FLESH BODY and

    THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, in Jesus’SOUL THE SON OF GOD.

    ARE A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE TWO NATURES OF JESUS! 

    Confirmed by Jesus in

    John 4:36 And he ( THE HOLY GHOST, the Son of God) that reapeth receiveth wages and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both

    he (“THE WORD” The Son of Man)that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 37For in this is the saying true:

    That it is one man that soweth, (THE SON OF MAN)

    and it is another that reapeth. ( THE SON OF GOD)

    Now in view of the above :

    IT IS ONE THAT SOWS AND

    IT IS ANOTHER THAT REAPS,

    THEY ARE BOTH IN THE SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE, A REFERENCE TO THE PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE.

    Thus the process of redemption initiated IMMEDIATELY ON ADAM’S SIN. Pinpointed out by Jesus when He said:

    John4:38 I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour. Others have laboured: and you have entered into their labours.

    Now also in relation to the above Jodi read

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, (“THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man WHO SOWS, slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8) whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. ( WHO REAPS)

    12Whose fan is in his hand,( THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST WHO REAPS) and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor (THE WORLD)  and gather his wheat (SOULS)  into the barn; (REDEEMED IN HEAVEN)

    but the chaff ( SATAN AND HIS DEMONS)

    he will burn with unquenchable fire.

     ERADICATED FROM ALL SOULS ON JESUS’ DEATH, AND LOCKED IN HELL WITHOUT A JUSTIFIED CAUSE TILL PENTECOST. MOSES LAW BECAME FUTILE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    March 25, 2020 at 12:50 pm#850868
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Edj

    But for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom all things are, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6

    When we are puzzled over certain Old Testament texts
    (not you apparently on this topic) I was
    well I trust the New Testament.

    Hi Berean,

    If you see in the context with Col 1:20, YOU SEE that it is because of THE CROSS that things
    were created through (or by) Jesus Christ – Not that he helped create, nor did the creating.

    And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
    by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say,
    whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.” (Col 1:20)

    I wish you could see this…

    “And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they
    which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.” (John 9:39)

    March 25, 2020 at 2:37 pm#850871
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  Hi Mike,

    The “beginning” is a person as Revelation 3:14 shows us, and in that person (the Son), God created all things, the heaven and the earth.

    Gen1:1

    In the beginning (the Son), God created the heavens and the earth.

    That is how I have begun to understand that, it is my opinion, a possibility.

    I don’t know, Kathi.  Proverbs 8, “God brought me forth as the beginning of his works”.  Micah 5,  “whose origins are from ancient times”.  Colossians 1, “the firstborn of every creature”.  Revelation 3, “the beginning of the creation by God”.  Plus all the scriptures that say he’s the SON of God… surely God knew how we’d all understand a Father/Son relationship, right? As in the former creates/procreates the latter, right?  Then add in the fact that Jesus says our God is also HIS God, and that he worships that same God we do.  Surely Jesus knew we’d understand that God created all things, and if he’s Jesus’ God too, then we’d assume he created Jesus as well.

    I’m seeing a clear pattern here without even delving too deeply into it.  It is good to talk to you guys about this stuff again though.  I’ve let myself get rusty.  My iron needs a little sharpening.  😉

    March 25, 2020 at 2:40 pm#850872
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Coll 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Hi Jodi,

    What does it mean to you that Jesus was the firstborn from the dead?  What do those words actually mean?

    March 25, 2020 at 2:44 pm#850873
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  In the meantime, you hide the fact that Christ is the creative agent of the Father and that through Him all things were created.

    I guess “creative agent” works for me, although none of us actually know for sure what it means that God created all things through Jesus.  But we do indeed know that God created all things through Jesus, right?  Jodi?  Ed?  Gene?  We do know that, right?

    March 25, 2020 at 2:56 pm#850874
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: JESUS IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD (FATHER)

    BUT HE HAS THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS
    FATHER…   

    THE WORD: “god” is also applied for thé “angels”

    Psalms 8:5
    For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels(elohiym), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    You and I are not too far off.  Most erroneously claim that the Hebrew culture and the Bible are “strictly monotheistic”.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The entire Bible is chock full of all kinds of different gods…  Molech, Yahweh, Dagon, Michael, Ashteroth, Gabriel, Baal, Satan… and many more.  After all, Yahweh couldn’t be the MOST HIGH God if there weren’t less high gods.  He couldn’t be the God OF gods if there weren’t other gods that he was the God OF.

    So since you agree that Jesus isn’t the Almighty God… is it possible that Jesus is also one of those less high gods that the Father is the God OF?

    (I have no argument for Jesus having divine nature, since I agree with that.)

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