Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,928 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 hour, 35 minutes ago by DesireTruth.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,601 through 22,620 (of 25,929 total)

←1 2 3…1,1301,1311,132…1,295 1,296 1,297 →

Author
Posts
July 13, 2021 at 5:14 am#872026
gadam123
Participant
But you are stuck with the carnal and cannot imagine the spiritual. But the natural is there to teach you of the spiritual.
You are in preschool and looking at a university text book and saying “hey, this stuff is not in my children’s book”.
Might be time to grow up or at least think critically about the Old Testament and its purpose. It teaches us about a Holy God and a sinful race. It teaches us about a nation that God chose. Do you really believe that is the be all and end all? No, the messiah is the answer to a Holy God having perfect relationship with sinful man. God showed us the problem in the Old Testament and the solution in the new. Now we are patiently waiting the return of the messiah as the reigning king.
So you think that I am struck at carnal? Please check my post on son of God to Danny. I am not the one struck at carnal nature. In fact Christianity is the one which is struck at Carnal as defined by you. They are the ones who claim that Jesus was some how shared God’s divine nature literally including the so called Arius.
A son of God in Hebrew Bible is always meant a non-materialistic or non-hypostatic relation with God. It talks about the relationship in terms of closeness to God than literal sense as interpreted by the NT writers and Christianity.
God showed us the problem in the Old Testament and the solution in the new.
This is completely baseless as Torah is eternal and abiding as per the Hebrew Bible. It’s purely the Christian idea that the Hebrew Bible has become obsolete or problematic as claimed by you and the New Testament has taken over the Hebrew Bible. Please read and re-read Psalm 119 and you will understand the goodness of Torah. I request you to remove such negative bias towards the Hebrew Bible as it is the very source of Christian New Testament.
Here is a funny comments on what you quoted above;
The problem that such a view perpetuates is that somehow the Old Testament was God’s quasi-rough draft. He wrote it before He had His coffee and was grumpy and mean, and then He went to counselling and came back as nice-guy Jesus to make up for how awful He was in the past. Jesus’ claim is precisely the opposite—His claim is that He IS the God of the Old Testament in His personhood—Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one God in three persons. Without the Old Testament you do not get the right Jesus. There are many versions of Jesus out there but you’ve got to get the right one to be Christian.
Of course they are not mine.
The following will be the Messianic age;
Isaiah 2:
2 In days to come
the mountain of the Lord’s house
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
all the nations shall stream to it.
3 Many peoples shall come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
and shall arbitrate for many peoples;
they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.
Zech 8:
20 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, the inhabitants of many cities; 21 the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.” 22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
The above are no where nearer to Christian understanding on the Messiah as they had mystified him.
July 13, 2021 at 11:37 am#872027
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
YOU: God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,
Matthew 17:16 Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water.
16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you?
bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out?
20Jesus said to them:
Because of your unbelief.
For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove;
and nothing shall be impossible to you.
YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED
YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES.
EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!
DO YOU KNOW WHY?
READ:
John14:Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
YOU GENE DON’T BELIEVE JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE WHICH CONFIRMS JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!
THAT’S ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY YOU WILL NEVER PERFORM MIRACLES.
NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE EVER, AND FOR ETERNITY HAVE THE UNIQUE PREVELAGE THAT
GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIM AND HE IS IN THE FATHER.
12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.
THE WORK JESUS PERFORMED CAME DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER AS
THE FATHER AND JESUS ARE
ONE SUBSTANCE AND UNIQUE.
SON OF MAN! HEBREWS 1:3
GOD THE FATHER’S SPIRIT
EVEN WHEN JESUS LEFT THE FATHER AND CAME ON EARTH, AS SPIRITS
THEY NEVER SEPARATED,
WELL CLEAR IN
John3:12 If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not; how will you believe,
if I shall speak to you heavenly things???????
13And NO MAN hath ascended into heaven,
but he that descended FROM heaven,
YOU GENE DON’T BELIEVE JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE WHICH CONFIRMS JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE! THAT’S ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS, WHY YOU WILL NEVER PERFORM MIRACLES.
the Son of man WHO IS in heaven.
OK Gene, THE SON OF MAN JESUS CHRIST, GODMAN, WAS IN HEAVEN EVEN BEFOE THE WORLD WAS! GOD’S EMBODIMENT!
John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,
before the world was, with thee.
ONLY PHYSICALLY AS PERSONS, THEY WERE DISTINCT: ATTENTION Gene,
FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK, IT IS
HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK! CARRY ON READING Gene:
Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in ME,
BELEIVE N JESUS NOT IN GOD ONLY, AS ONLY IN JESUS GOD THE FATHER ACCEPTS HUMANS’ DEMANDS! AGAIN WELL CLEAR IN
John15:6 I am the vine; you the branches:
he that abideth in me, and I in him,
the same beareth much fruit:
for without ME you can do nothing.
6If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.
7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you,
ATTENTION Gene:
you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
Carry on reading Gene, and accept the TRUTH!
Cont. John 14…..the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.
ATTENTION AGAIN:
13Because I go to the Father:
THE ONLY HUMAN BEING WHO IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER AND ALSO
ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE FATHER FOR ETERNITY!
ATTENTION AGAIN:
and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in MY NAME,(WHERE IS THE FATHER Gene???)
that will I do:
that the Father may be
glorified in the Son. (NOT IN HIMSELF)
JESUS WILL DO, Gene, HE IS GLORIFIED!
JOHN 17:10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;
and I am glorified in them.
GET THAT INTO YOUR CARNAL SPIRITUALLY DEAD MIND WITH EVERY RESPECT!
JESUS IS RULING THE UNIVERSE! NOT THE FATHER!
now read what you FALSELY PREACH:
YOU: YOU OR ANYONE CAN HAVE, those Spirits ( cognisities) in you but still not be able to do any miracles, by themselves.
It’s one thing to have the Spirits (cognitions) it’s quite another to have the power to exercise them.
God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,
THAT GOD YOU MENTIONED ABOVE GENE IS JESUS!
ON EARTH ONLY JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND GOD THE FATHER
ONLY THROUGH HIM WORKS AND MAKES MIRACLES!
Acts3:6 …..In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk.
YOU: remember when Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they receiver “POWER” FROM ON HIGH.
ME: THAT POWER Gene belongs to JESUS!
HE DIED FOR IT ON EARTH AND HE GOVERNS EARTH ALL BY HIMSELF AS
THE ONLY TRUE GOD PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED ON EARTH!
After they were filled with the Holy Spirit they went out and
“GOD” THE FATHER “,
ME: LIES.LIES, and LIES!
John16:5 But I told you not these things from the beginning because I was with you. And now I go to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me: Whither goest thou? 6But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go:
for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go,
I will send him to you.
JESUS IS RULING NOT THE FATHER!
8And when HE is come, HE will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.
9Of sin: because they believed not in me.
10And of justice: because I go to the Father, and you shall see me no longer.
JUSTIFIED AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND RULER OVER ALL.
11And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.
OFFICIALLY BY/ON JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS!
12I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.
For he shall not speak of himself; (OF GOD THE FATHER! THE FATHER DID NOT DIE ON EARTH NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER ON EARTH; ONLY IN JESUS)
but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you.
14He shall glorify me;
NOT GOD THE FATHER
because he shall receive of MINE and shall show it to you.
15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.
Therefore I said, that he shall receive of MINE, and show it to you.
through miracles
YOU:Confirmed their words, (how), by Miracles he was doing through them, Just as he did “in” Jesus, no difference.
LIES, LIES, and LIES!
YOU:“One God in all and through all”, including Jesus.
NO Gene!
RIGHT NOW THAT GOD IS
JESUS CHRIST
not the god you falsely preach
Cont. John 14:14If you shall ask me anything in
MY NAME,
Gene for God’s sake:
WHERE IS THE FATHER! I TELL YOU:
HE IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!
Gene, have faith IN JESUS as a grain of a mustard seed,
WHO IS IN YOU THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, ASK JESUS
ANYTHING AND JESUS HEARS YOU AS HE CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:
that I will do.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

July 14, 2021 at 9:47 am#872043
Proclaimer
Participant
So you think that I am struck at carnal?
Correct. You say it evolved, but what if the plan of God is to take men from carnal to spiritual. Then you would see a basic understanding with numerous ways it could all play out to revelation where we see it play out and understand its fulfilment. And why is it hard to believe in the grandiose plan from a God that created the cosmos. If you don’t like it, then fine.
And what if men believed based on their openness to revelation or lack of it.
You don’t seem to understand this. You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.
But is it not logical that the plan of God is a progression, that is both wonderful and terrifying. That there is a season for the law and condemnation of sin and a season for the solution to that? If God just sprung salvation on man without understanding sin first, then men wouldn’t appreciate what he is doing for us and wouldn’t really know what repentance is.
Certainly both testaments show that God cares and we only need to trust him and the plan he has for mankind and be faithful to the revelation we have received.
But if the heart of a man is wayward, then he will put up every stumbling block imaginable, rather than see the light and be responsible about it. He will use every objection possible.
July 14, 2021 at 1:28 pm#872046
Jodi
Participant
Hi All,
I have been gone for a bit, I have been extremely busy and still am. This is the only thread I get emails of posts on and every now and then I get a moment to read some of them.
I just don’t understand at all how people believe that Jesus is the word of God as in he is the word of God, that is just totally nonsensical. Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks the word of God and not only that but the word of God spoken by the prophets was made true in the man of flesh Jesus. Also prophesy concerning him even included that he would speak the word of God. God’s word from the beginning was eternal life, when Jesus was raised from the dead the word was made true in the flesh, giving hope to his brethren of their own resurrection into eternal life.
Gene gave a great passage,
Hebrews 1:1 , who at sundry times and in divers manners in time past unto the fathers spoke by the prophets in these last days, hath spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through (by reason of) whom also made the worlds; 3 Who being brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The above is absolute proof that the Son of God didn’t pre-exist as God’s word, as he didn’t speak the word until later, before it was the prophets who spoke the word.
WHO is WHO?
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
WHO “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”?
Luke 22: 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
God had a plan from the beginning, a plan where Jesus would be appointed heir of all things. When God made all things, ALONE/BY HIMSELF as we are directly told by Isaiah, He most certainly would be making all things through the heir, by reason of the heir and for the heir. That is just simple common sense, and we are heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus, a firstborn of many brethren!!! The resurrected Jesus represents a new Adam (human being) a last Adam, a Son of Man who is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, where Jesus rose having received the Spirit by PROMISE. We too are promised to receive that Spirit where we shall walk in all His ways.
Romans 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (New Birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Abraham rejoiced to see his day, he saw it and was glad. Before Abram was (even existed), from the beginning this man was to bring the resurrection and the light of life, and be the heir of all things. Jesus said in John 8, “I AM the light of the world”.
Jesus also said, “but from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female“. You’d think that would have been the perfect time for Jesus to declare that he as the word of God made them male and female.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
So let’s get this straight,
In the beginning God created man in His own image and He created them with the promise of eternal life and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
Jesus received the Spirit of God without measure and was then sent out into the world to speak God’s word and do God’s work. John was a witness when the Spirit descended upon Jesus that this was the Son of God.
At one point Jesus cried and said, “and he that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.” We are later told that when he went to the cross to purge our sins, he was the brightness of God’s glory and the express image of His person.
He was then resurrected unto eternal life and is the Son of David who sits at God’s right hand being God’s Son according to the Spirit which he had received by promise when he rose from the dead.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Jesus was and always will be a Son of Man. He is a Son of God ACCORDING TO the Spirit.
July 14, 2021 at 3:23 pm#872047
gadam123
Participant
Correct. You say it evolved, but what if the plan of God is to take men from carnal to spiritual. Then you would see a basic understanding with numerous ways it could all play out to revelation where we see it play out and understand its fulfillment. And why is it hard to believe in the grandios plan fron a God that created the cosmos.
And what if men believed based on their openness to revelation or lack of it.
You don’t seem to understand this. You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.
Hi proclaimer, you blame me for not being spiritual? I also can blame the very writers of the NT who had twisted the Hebrew scriptures to suit their dogma. After all they were all human beings not any gods. In fact many here lack openness and are sticking to their age old fundamentalism and not able to visualize the truth beyond the NT.
You seem to avoid my full post and chose only bits and parts to comment.
You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.
Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing. Please go through any of your threads here in this Forum you will find confusion every where because of the ambiguity with strange concepts of Messiah who had supposedly involved in God’s creation and become a Savior figure who gives life to the dead which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible.
Please wake up my friend and come out of those biased beliefs….
July 14, 2021 at 3:55 pm#872050
Proclaimer
Participant
I just don’t understand at all how people believe that Jesus is the word of God as in he is the word of God
That is easy to answer. It comes from the New Testament and some people believe the New Testament.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
and
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
July 14, 2021 at 3:57 pm#872051
Proclaimer
Participant
Hi proclaimer, you blame me for not being spiritual?
Blame is a bit strong of a word. I believe we all have the choice to be spiritual or remain carnal.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.…
July 14, 2021 at 4:01 pm#872052
Proclaimer
Participant
Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing.
Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind and some other people’s mind too. Both testaments are in perfect harmony. They are both revelations but the latter is greater. This is also true with regards to science. Today, we know much more than the smartest people did two thousand years ago. We live in the information age.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
You see, many of the Old Testament is shut up or sealed. With these seals being broken as some point. Of course when seals break, prophecy is fulfilled, and a problem is given a solution, then not all men will understand or accept them. And here you are.
July 14, 2021 at 4:03 pm#872053
Proclaimer
Participant
because of the ambiguity with strange concepts of Messiah who had supposedly involved in God’s creation and become a Savior figure who gives life to the dead which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible.
That sounds like something a spiritually blind person would say.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
July 14, 2021 at 5:38 pm#872055
gadam123
Participant
That sounds like something a spiritually blind person would say.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
Hi Proclaimer, you seem to judge others so fast without knowing their heart. I request you not to color your criticism with scriptural quotations. I don’t think you are preaching Gospel to anyone here as this Forum is meant for debates on doctrinal issues. It is a weak method of defense.
To seeing Kingdom of God or Messiah you don’t require any special inspiration as imagined by the Christianity.
July 14, 2021 at 5:47 pm#872057
gadam123
Participant
Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind and some other people’s mind too. Both testaments are in perfect harmony. They are both revelations but the latter is greater. This is also true with regards to science. Today, we know much more than the smartest people did two thousand years ago. We live in the information age.
When people are closing their eyes and minds they can’t see the truth. So you think NT greater revelation than OT? This shows how biased are the Christian views.
The book of Daniel is a non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible written in 2nd BCE by a pseudo writer. Nothing is sealed in the book as it is open to its readers. It is just like Masala (favorable stuff) for Christianity as they claim it for Jesus by twisting its content and context.
July 14, 2021 at 10:24 pm#872068
Proclaimer
Participant
When people are closing their eyes and minds they can’t see the truth. So you think NT greater revelation than OT? This shows how biased are the Christian views.
It’s called progress. Should there be regress then?
Where in the Old Testament does it say this is the full revelation. Anything after that is fake. And the messiah will be king of Israel and the world will still have all the problems. Where is that all written. Yet that is the measuring stick you use for truth and lies. It’s a fake measuring device gadam.
One would think that if there was a messiah, then he would save men. Not a country.
Is God really just interested in resurrecting Israel and doesn’t want to do anything about the state of the world and sin? Does God love mankind? If so, then he would have a plan that would enable men to find God again.
You reject the more important issues and concentrate on a very limited world view of the Old Testament.
Where is your faith?
July 14, 2021 at 10:54 pm#872070
gadam123
Participant
One would think that if there was a messiah, then he would save men. Not a country.
Is God really just interested in resurrecting Israel and doesn’t want to do anything about the state of the world and sin? Does God love mankind? If so, then he would have a plan that would enable men to find God again.
You reject the more important issues and concentrate on a very limited world view of the Old Testament.
Sorry brother Hebrew religion was not meant a universal religion. It was for a nation and a people, even Jesus upheld the same. Later texts of Hebrew Bible included all nations but Israel will be the center of attention. Messiah was only meant for a nation and the benefits will be extended to others. Sorry I am not rejecting anything here as I am only investigating the strange ideas invented by the Christianity.
July 14, 2021 at 11:58 pm#872072
Proclaimer
Participant
Like the Pharisees, you missed the plan of God.
Start in Jerusalem, then Israel, then the utmost part of the world.
And this has happened.
You missed the boat.
YHWH is the God of the Jews.
But he is the God of the cosmos too.
I think you forget that.
An eternal God creates the cosmos, and you think that Israel is all that matters to him.
Lol.
July 18, 2021 at 4:36 am#872156
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike……you say Jesus is a Spirit, but Jesus said clearly he was not a Spirit. “Far a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see I have’. , that was said “after” his resurrection. Scripture says his soul would not see corruption. So when did this transfer, between flesh to spirit take place?
Upon his ascension to heaven, Gene. Jesus was raised from the dead in the same flesh body in which he died. He dwelled on earth in that same body for another 30 days after his resurrection. Then he ascended to heaven before the eyes of the disciples. But we know from scripture that flesh can neither inherit nor even enter the kingdom of God – where we agree Jesus dwells now, right?
So we know 2 things for sure:
1. Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
2. Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)
That leaves us with only one option: Jesus’ flesh body was transformed into his current spirit body upon his ascension from earth to heaven. Paul talks a lot about this transformation in 1 Cor 15, and in Phil 3:20-21, Paul even says…
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
Jesus shared our type of “lowly body” for the entire 33 years he dwelled on earth – including 30 days after his resurrection. But he doesn’t still possess this “lowly body” in heaven, Gene. He now possesses a “glorious new body” – and it was Paul’s eager hope that he too will exchange his “lowly body” for the “glorious body” Jesus now has in heaven.
July 18, 2021 at 5:40 am#872157
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: You say, Jesus said I existed before Abraham, scripture says before Abraham existed, “I am”. A completely different word in the text.
Gene, how many times do we have to go through the same thing? I’m going to ask you some simple, point-blank questions. Please answer them honestly.
1. Do you understand that the Greek language is different than the English language? YES or NO?
2. Do you understand the underlined part in the above – that some phrases that ENGLISH writers would render in the PAST TENSE are rendered in the GREEK language as present tense? YES or NO?
3. Do you understand that Jesus saying “I am” is a HISTORICAL present, and can literally be translated into English as, “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been in a state of continual existence that continues on, even until this very day”? YES or NO?
If you have trouble saying “YES” – simply because you don’t want “YES” to be the answer, consider Exhibit B…
John 14:9 Young’s Literal Translation
Jesus saith to him, ‘So long time I am with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?
Do you see the red phrase “I am”, Gene? That is also the Greek PRESENT tense. But as we learned from the above, some phrases that would be translated in English as PAST tense are rendered in Greek as PRESENT tense. What are these called again, Gene? (Historical presents, right?) So the actual meaning of the Greek words above are:
Jesus said to him, ‘So long a time I have been in a continual state of existing among you that continues on until this very day, and you have not known me?
Of course nobody translates their English Bible that way – but the vast majority of them render that Greek historical present tense as a simple English past tense…
New International Version
I have been among you such a long time
Berean Study Bible
I have been with you all this time
King James Bible
Have I been so long time with you
New American Standard Bible
Have I been with you for so long a time
NET Bible
Have I been with you for so long
And the list goes on and on. The majority of English Bibles render “I am” in John 14:9 as “I have been” – because they KNOW Jesus was talking about how much PAST time Jesus had already spent with Philip. It is the exact same with John 8:58, Gene. The honest way to translate the “I am” in 8:58 is as “I have been” – just like in John 14:9.
And the only reason the English Bibles keep the present tense “I am” in 8:58 is so they can make the asinine claim that Jesus – by saying the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language – was somehow claiming to be Jehovah. But how ludicrous is that? First of all, there is no proof that “YHWH” even means “I am”. And if we swap out “I am” for “Jehovah” in 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham came into existence, Jehovah“. What would that even mean? 🤔🙄
But in their Trinitarian zeal to corrupt the scriptures, they keep it as “I am” in 8:58 – while rightly rendering the same exact phrase as “I have been” in John 14:9.
And non-preexisters like you get to capitalize on their corruption. So…
4. Gene, do you understand that the phrase in 14:9 is “I am”? YES or NO?
5. Do you agree that the MEANING in 14:9 is “I have been”? YES or NO?
6. Can you therefore agree that the same exact phrase in the same circumstance (talking about things of the PAST) should (or at least COULD) also be rendered as “I have been” in 8:58?
July 18, 2021 at 5:45 am#872158
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: You say the word Angel means a messenger, while I do agree with that, but there are scriptures , that I produced that say God did not subject the world to come unto the Angels , which would negate Jesus from being in it if he were an angel of any kind. right? Heb 2:5
If you agree an angel is a messenger, then use it in Heb 2:5…
God did not subject the world to come unto the messengers.
So now, even if Jesus was in heaven as a human being, he is still a messenger of God, right? So according to your logic, no messenger of God – human or spirit – will have any part in the world to come.
Is that what you believe?
July 18, 2021 at 6:16 am#872159
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: Great question. Did he answer it?
Of course not.
July 18, 2021 at 6:29 am#872160
mikeboll64
Blocked
Danny: Because He is His only begotten Son.
Well then how can we consider Him to be a lesser god?
Proclaimer: However, if this was the intended point of the New Testament writers and God who inspired them, then you would see language like, ‘the lesser god Jesus Christ…’.
Or “You are the Son, a lesser god than the Father” – Peter.
Or “The god was born in Bethelem”.
Etc.
But you never see that.
John 1:1… and the Word was a god.
John 1:18… No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Danny, why ask Proclaimer about the greatness of Jesus as compared to his and our God, Jehovah? Why not just believe what Jesus himself said about it?
John 14:28… the Father is greater than I.
Both gods, one of them greater… which means one of them is not as great, ie: lesser.
That’s why Jehovah alone is called the Almighty, the Most High God, and the God of gods. You can’t have a Most High God if there are no less high gods. And since Jesus is clearly not the Most High God, he has no choice but to be one of the many less high gods that Jehovah is the God of.
July 18, 2021 at 6:35 am#872161
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: It revolves round and round the mulberry bush without coming out clearly that Jesus is God or man.
The NT is very clear that Jesus was existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made as a man – born of a virgin via God’s Holy Spirit. He was a god, then dwelled on earth as a man for 33 years, and is once again a god in heaven, sitting at the right hand of his own God, Jehovah.
All of this is in the NT.
Author
Posts

Viewing 20 posts - 22,601 through 22,620 (of 25,929 total)

←1 2 3…1,1301,1311,132…1,295 1,296 1,297 →

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Because of your unbelief.

you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove;

and nothing shall be impossible to you.

DO YOU KNOW WHY?

GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIM AND HE IS IN THE FATHER.

12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.

ONE SUBSTANCE AND UNIQUE.

SON OF MAN! HEBREWS 1:3

GOD THE FATHER’S SPIRIT

THEY NEVER SEPARATED,

but he that descended FROM heaven,

the Son of man WHO IS in heaven.

before the world was, with thee.

Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in ME,

he that abideth in me, and I in him,

for without ME you can do nothing.

you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

13Because I go to the Father:

that will I do:

glorified in the Son. (NOT IN HIMSELF)

JESUS WILL DO, Gene, HE IS GLORIFIED!

and I am glorified in them.

JESUS IS RULING THE UNIVERSE! NOT THE FATHER!

THAT GOD YOU MENTIONED ABOVE GENE IS JESUS!

ON EARTH ONLY JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND GOD THE FATHER

ONLY THROUGH HIM WORKS AND MAKES MIRACLES!

Acts3:6 …..In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk.

ME: THAT POWER Gene belongs to JESUS!

ME: LIES.LIES, and LIES!

I will send him to you.

JESUS IS RULING NOT THE FATHER!

9Of sin: because they believed not in me.

For he shall not speak of himself; (OF GOD THE FATHER! THE FATHER DID NOT DIE ON EARTH NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER ON EARTH; ONLY IN JESUS)

14He shall glorify me;

NOT GOD THE FATHER

15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.

Therefore I said, that he shall receive of MINE, and show it to you.

through miracles

LIES, LIES, and LIES!

RIGHT NOW THAT GOD IS

JESUS CHRIST

not the god you falsely preach

Cont. John 14:14If you shall ask me anything in

MY NAME,

HE IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

that I will do.

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

TOPICS

Navigation

Log in with your credentials

Forgot your details?

Create Account