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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • June 5, 2021 at 3:58 pm#871278
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    I believe that the trinity calls the Spirit a third person. I don’t follow that belief.

    June 5, 2021 at 7:28 pm#871286
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Berean,

    I love your songs, so worshipful! Are you musical as well?

    Keep them coming, LU

    Hi LU

    I’m glad you enjoy it so much …. but I’m not a musician so far, I would like to, but I love music and spiritual songs that lift the soul to our God.

    Have a good day

     

    June 6, 2021 at 5:03 am#871308
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    But why other NT writings deviated from this conviction of Jesus?

    They didn’t. OT and NT is a harmony.
    Stop attacking the Bible.

    June 7, 2021 at 6:51 am#871328
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    If I said this:

    One father + one mother + one son = Fred, Wilma, and Bambam

    and all are identified as the Flintstones,

    would you understand that the Father is “Fred” and the mother is “Wilma” and the son is “BamBam?”

    Maybe New Zealand didn’t have “the Flintstones” when you were young but in the States, it was a popular cartoon.

    So, I repeat my recent post to see if you can get the message a little better:

    The Father + The Son + The Spirit = One God, One Lord, and One Spirit. All are identified as YHVH.

    The Father is the One God, the Son is the One Lord, and the Spirit is the One Spirit, and all are identified as YHVH.

     

    June 7, 2021 at 11:42 am#871337
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    You asked Danny Dabbs this:

    But why other NT writings deviated from this conviction of Jesus?

    I believe that was referring the first commandment to love the LORD (YHVH) your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

    If you knew YHVH as our One God and our One Lord, you would understand that we are to love both our One God and our One Lord, Father and Son. The Father is our One God and the Son is our One Lord. YHVH is both our God and Lord, not just our God.

    Take care, LU

    June 7, 2021 at 3:28 pm#871340
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,

    I believe that was referring the first commandment to love the LORD (YHVH) your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

    If you knew YHVH as our One God and our One Lord, you would understand that we are to love both our One God and our One Lord, Father and Son. The Father is our One God and the Son is our One Lord. YHVH is both our God and Lord, not just our God.

    Thanks for your reply to my post. Yes Jesus was quoting first commandment to love the Lord (Yahweh) and Yahweh alone is the One ‘God of gods’ and One ‘Lord of lords’ as per Deut 10:17.

    But the inclusion of Jesus the supposed Messiah as One Lord  by the NT or even God as claimed by most of the Christianity is foreign to the Hebrew Bible. This is where I am struck up.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    June 7, 2021 at 4:33 pm#871345
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    The Bible for the Hebrews is the OT AND the NT. It is not just the OT. The story of the NT was written to the Jew first and then also to the Gentiles.

    Blessings, LU

    June 7, 2021 at 4:50 pm#871346
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Bible for the Hebrews is the OT AND the NT. It is not just the OT. The story of the NT was written to the Jew first and then also to the Gentiles.

    I know sister the NT was written for Christian believers from both Jews and Gentiles. But my arguments are on how the NT deviated from its original source the Hebrew Bible on the concepts of God and Messiah.

    June 7, 2021 at 5:25 pm#871347
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    The NT was written to all people, including unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

    Have you read or listened to anything Rabbi Jonathan Bernis has written or spoke about?

    You might want to look at his books and videos.

    I hope it helps, LU

     

    l

    June 7, 2021 at 7:49 pm#871352
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,

    The NT was written to all people, including unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

    Have you read or listened to anything Rabbi Jonathan Bernis has written or spoke about?

    Thanks for your post to me on Rabbi Jonathan Bernis. I am sorry to say that he is a Messianic Jew who fully support the idea of Trinity. Here is his statement of faith;

    What We Believe

    The Bible
    We believe the Bible, composed of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament), is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
    2 Timothy 3:15-17, Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19-21, Hebrews 4:2, Ephesians 6:17

    God Is One
    We believe God is One (echad), as declared in the Shema, the core Jewish prayer drawn from Deuteronomy 6:4-9. The word echad means “a united one” or “compound unity”; this compound unity is eternally existent in three co-equal, indivisible persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
    Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:16-17, 1 John 5:7-13

    Yeshua (Jesus) is God
    We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man. We believe He was miraculously born from a virgin as Scripture prophesied, and that His virgin birth was to be a sign to Israel of His Messiahship.
    Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-23

    I can’t get any thing from this group called Messianic Jews who are purely Trinitarian Christians in disguise of Jewishness.

    June 11, 2021 at 9:46 pm#871414
    gadam123
    Participant

    Born Before All?

    For whenever people ask about pre-existence, faced with the questionable nature of their life and the fragility of the world, they are asking about the beginning of all beginnings, about the foundation of all foundations, about the origin of all the origins of time, history and the cosmos. Hiding behind this
    theological technical term ‘pre-existence’ is none other than a search for what existed ‘before all time’, what was at the beginning of all existence, what underlies all reality. So pre-existence is a key concept in the enquiry into the basic principle of reality. Do not those who know the beginning also know the whole story? Do not those who know the origin also know the end? Do not those who know something from the beginning of all reality also know the basic law by which this reality is structured? ‘Pre-existence’ is certainly a technical term, but a primal question of existence underlies it.

    The scene changes. In the year 30 by our reckoning a young Jew dies in Jerusalem – condemned on the authority of the Roman emperor, crying aloud in the agonizing death of a criminal on the cross. If we follow the account in the Second Gospel, he dies with a feeling of having been abandoned by God, his God. A good fifty years later it will be said of this Nazarene that he is the ‘image of the invisible God’, that ‘all things were created in him’ -‘in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, thrones and dominations, powers and authorities’. He is the ‘radiance’ of the glory of God, the ‘image’ of God’s being; he supports the universe by his mighty Word…

    We go yet further. Around 300 years later (in 325), by virtue of the same Roman authority, in the emperor’s summer palace in Nicaea, not far from the capital Constantinople, a church assembly attended by around 300 bishops asserts of this Jew that he is of the ‘nature’ of God the Father, ‘God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God’. He is ‘begotten, not made’, ‘of one substance with the Father’ and through him all things in heaven and on earth were made. At the same time all those who say ‘there was a time when he was not’ or ‘he did not exist before he was begotten’, or ‘he came into being from nothing’ are threatened with exclusion from the Catholic Church. And yet again, a good sixty years later, a subsequent assembly of the church held in Constantinople (in 381) would add that he was ‘born of the Father before all time’, before finally, another seventy years later, the universal Council of Chalcedon (451) would coin the famous formula vere Deus – vere homo, true God, true man, and say of this Christ: ‘The self same consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, the self same consubstantial with us according to the manhood… before all time he was begotten of the Father as to his Godhead, but in the last days the self same, for us and for our salvation, was born of Mary, the Virgin, the bearer of God, as to his manhood.’

    On the one hand a criminal’s death on the cross and on the other the confession of him as Son of God and being of one substance with God; on the one hand the existence of a Jew in the province of Galilee in his time and on the other belief in his pre-existence in God’s eternity: how is it possible to believe that? How is it possible to believe the assertion that in this Jew that which holds the world together in its innermost heart has become visible; that in him what supports the universe has been made manifest, that in him can
    be detected what rests at the foundation of reality; indeed, that he himself is in the origin, the beginning of all things, that he himself is the Word in person, is meaning in human form; that he himself is the power, the liberating act of the creator – he, and nothing and no one else? How is it possible to believe that without sacrificing reason for an impenetrable riddle? How is it possible to understand something which seems so nonsensical: ‘Is an uneducated manual worker from the despised people of the Jews, condemned by the state authorities to a humiliating death, to be the divine revealer of the truth of God and the coming judge of the worlds?’ ‘Pre-existence’ may indeed be a technical term, but a basic Christian question underlies it.

    So the ‘Word’ was in the beginning with God and Word was God. This is the myth revolves round around in our Forums and debates with never ending mode.

    June 12, 2021 at 2:23 am#871415
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    So the ‘Word’ was in the beginning with God and Word was God. This is the myth revolves round around in our Forums and debates with never ending mode.

     

    You will soon realize that this is not a myth

    BUT THE TRUTH

     For in him (CHRIST)dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.(Col.2:9)

     

     

     

    June 14, 2021 at 9:37 am#871442
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: The scene changes. In the year 30 by our reckoning a young Jew dies in Jerusalem – condemned on the authority of the Roman emperor, crying aloud in the agonizing death of a criminal on the cross. If we follow the account in the Second Gospel, he dies with a feeling of having been

    abandoned by God, his God. 

    ME: What is the reason that Jesus, seconds away from death, shouted such words?

    If God, THE LIFE remained in Jesus, could DEATH have ever happened to Jesus? Considering the fact also that Satan, up to that moment in time had the empire of death and was about to take Jesus soul to hell as a criminal?

    Also, God abides not where Satan works, the fact that from the ninth hour darkness/Satan was over the WHOLE earth, waiting for God to abandon Jesus.   Well clear hereunder:

    Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was DARKNESS over the WHOLE earth, until the ninth hour.

     46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani?

    that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    What do the above words confirm by Jesus, when one looks from God’s perspective? This is hinted out in

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him

    all things into his hands,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    As clear as crystal, Jesus was aware that HE HAD FULL POWER  TO ENCOUNTER SATAN, EVEN ON HIS DEATH!

    …..for my strength is made perfect in weakness….

    JESUS WAS A HUMAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, AND DESPITE HE WAS AWARE THAT HIS FLESH BODY WOULD NEVER DIE OUR KIND OF DEATH SINCE

    HE ALREADY SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY, AND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THE SPIRIT, FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE, THUS ONCE JESUS’ FLESH WAS SPIRITUALIZED, IT COULD NEVER CORRODE, IT SIMPLY TRANSFORMED ITSELF INTO A NEW SUBSTANCE, THE SPIRITULFLESH SUBSTANCE, ETERNAL LIFE OF THE FLESH, BUT IT HAD TO BE ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH  DEATH IN ORDER TO DESTROY PRECISELY SATAN, WHO HAD THE EMPIRE OF DEATH, THUS JESUS TRANSFORMED DEATH INTO LIFE FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, MORE PRECISE FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM!

    Asserted 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life

    NEVERTHELESS, JESUS STILL FELT SOMEHOW THAT HORRIBLE MOMENT OF ABANDONMENT. PLUS THAT HE HAD TO FULFILL Psalm 22. Where the second part of the psalm is a hymn of thanksgiving to God, who has heard the psalmist’s prayer.

    John 19:28 Afterwards, (when God left Jesus)  Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said:

    I thirst. 

    IT SEEMS SATAN HESITATED FOR A WHILE and never respected his own fundamental procedure associated with criminals and take Jesus’soul to hell; God made him aware of his evident defeat and the end of his delusion TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.

    It is enough for the …..the servant to be as his lord.

    29Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. 30Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said:

    It is consummated. (SATAN BY FORCE ENTERED JESUS’ SOUL MANIFESTED IN THE VINEGAR) And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.(THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE) 

    Once Jesus took the vinegar, it was the end of Satan. On the other hand Jesus, immediately on His death, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN THE HOLY GHOST

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN

    Well asserted in

    John13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM. (GOD BECAME MAN IN JESUS) 

    32If God be glorified in him, (IN THE SON OF MAN) 

    God also will glorify him( THE SON OF MAN)  IN HIMSELF; (IN GOD)

    and immediately will he glorify him. 

    ON HIS DEATH!!!

    LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT.

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was void and empty,

    and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    3And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4And God saw the light that it was good;

    and he divided the light from the darkness. 

    God in the scripture above predicted Jesus’glory and superiority, THE LIGHT, and LIFE, over Satan, THE DARKNESS, and DEATH, and as much as in

    Genesis 1:2 the world was void and empty of any kind of life, and darkness/SATAN, was UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP/HELL, ON JESUS DEATH, THE WORLD WAS VOID AND EMPTY OF LIFE, ALL DEAD THROUGH SIN, AND DARKNESS/SATAN FROM THE SIXTH HOUR WAS OVER THE WHOLE EARTH WAITING TO ERADICATE HIMSELF  FROM THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, AND HIS  DELIBERATE POSSESSION OF SOULS THROUGH SIN IN THE FLESH. THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN

    GENESIS 1:2 MOVED OVER THE WATERS  OF THE FIRST-EVER DELUGE CAUSED BY LUCIFER WHEN HE KICKED STARTED HIS REBELLION AND DESTROYED THIS PLANET, PSALM 18,  LIKEWISE FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE ADAM’S FALL, ON THIS PLANET, CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN THE WATER OF LIFE  IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN CHRIST, AND FLOODED THE  EARTH BY WHICH HE RECREATED ANEW ALL PURIFIED AND GAVE LIFE TO THE WORLD;  TOMBS WERE OPENED AND SAINTS CAME BACK TO LIFE.

    IN GENESIS 1:2 IT WAS THE END OF THE FIRST CREATION OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS  AND THE BEGINNING OF THE HUMAN CREATION IN THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF THIS WORLD, WHERE GOD ALL-KNOWING, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8, LIKEWISE ON JESUS’ DEATH IT WAS THE END OF THE CREATION OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, AND THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW ETERNAL CREATION OF ALL SOULS, AND JESUS ON THE CROSS WAS ALSO SLAIN LIKE A LAMB. READING

    GENESIS 1:3 God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4And God saw

    the light that it was good;

    and he divided the light from the darkness. 

    LIKEWISE, ON JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS GOD SAID BE LIGHT MADE, AND LIGHT WAS MADE.

    And God saw the light that it was good;

    Well predicted by Jesus in Luke 17:22 And he said to his disciples: The days will come, when you shall desire

    to see ONE day of the Son of man;

    DURING THE FORTY DAYS HE REMAINED ON EARTH AFTER HIS DEATH!                 

    and you shall not see it. 23And they will say to you: See here, and see there. Go ye not after, nor follow them:

     24For as the lightning that lighteneth from under heaven,

    shineth unto the parts that are under heaven,

    so shall the Son of man be in his day. 

    GLORIFIED ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    GODMAN!

    And as in Genesis 1:3 …. he DIVIDED the light from the darkness.

    God on Jesus death also DID THE SAME  manifested in

    the SPLITTING  OF THE CURTAIN, and

    JESUS’HEART BY THE LANCE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    June 14, 2021 at 12:05 pm#871448
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    You said:

    I can’t get any thing from this group called Messianic Jews who are purely Trinitarian Christians in disguise of Jewishness.

    I think it would be very wise for you to look to people who are Jewish that didn’t used to follow Jesus as the Messiah but changed to become followers of Jesus as the Messiah.

    Also, I am not convinced that you are a skeptic. You seem to have already made up your mind about whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah or not because you call the stories in the NT myths. I think I remember that you said that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Why do you say that when you don’t believe that the NT is the Word of God? You seem more like an actor who is trying to act like a skeptic but you are not really skeptical when you call the stories about the deity of Christ as myths.

    June 21, 2021 at 5:32 am#871555
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Again you are struck at this passage in Prov 8.

    Sorry, I am not interested in the cut and paste novels you keep posting.  Use your own words to tell me why Prov 8:22 is cannot possibly be talking about an actual person.

    June 21, 2021 at 6:00 am#871556
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  You says That JESUS Never created anything…..!?

    Colossians 1:12-18

    Give thanks to the Father (God) who brought us together….

    For by him (Jesus) were created all things that are in the heavens and on the earth…

    While I’m happy to see that you are correctly identifying (Jesus) as someone other than (God), I’ve already showed you that the word “by” in the KJV doesn’t mean what you seem to think it does.  I even gave an example of Bill sending a letter to Sally BY mail.  That doesn’t mean that “mail” wrote the letter and went through the motions to send it to Sally.  It means that Bill sent the letter THROUGH the mail.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds…

    See if you can follow this simple logic.  You think that the phrase “BY whom he made the worlds” means that Jesus is the one who made the worlds, right?  By that same logic then, you must also think that “spoken to us BY his Son” means that Jesus was the ORIGINATOR of the words of God that he spoke.  And since that is the case, you have no choice but to accept that “BY the prophets” means that the prophets were also the ORIGINATORS of the words of God that they spoke in the past.

    On the other hand, if you know that it was GOD who spoke unto the fathers THROUGH (of BY MEANS OF) the prophets in the past, then you also can understand that GOD spoke THROUGH Jesus in the latter days, and that GOD is the one who made the worlds THROUGH his holy servant Jesus.

    So my suggestion is that you forget about the KJV’s use of the word “by” (which literally means “through”, or “by means of”), because it confuses you.  When you see that word “by” in the KJV, just swap it in your mind for “through”, and you’ll be okay.

    Consider the same two verses from the 100+ Trinitarian scholars who produced the NIV…

    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Do you see it now?  The word “by” and “through” are interchangeable, because the word “by” in this case simply means “by means of”, which means exactly the same thing as “through”.  So when you see “by” in the KJV, just think “through”.

    Now, I’ve challenged you to show a scripture that says Jesus created anything at all.  There are countless times in scripture where it is said, “God made…”, or “God created…”, etc.  Find me a verse in scripture that says “Jesus made…” or “Jesus created…”.  Because as Eusebius pointed out centuries ago…

    He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

     

     

    June 21, 2021 at 6:18 am#871557
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  At what point was Jesus ever lesser than the other Davidic kings so that he had to have God place him higher than them? 

    LU: Philippians 2:

    7but emptied Himself,

    taking the form of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    The Davidic kings were also human beings.  I’m asking when Jesus was ever lesser than (not equal to) those Davidic kings so that God had to place him higher than them? Even as a human on earth, Jesus said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

    “The son of David,” they replied.

    He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

    “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:

    “Sit at my right hand

    until I put your enemies

    under your feet.” ’

    If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    So even in his humanity, Jesus was higher than King David – the greatest of the Davidic kings, right?  So at what point was he lesser than the Davidic kings so that God had to place him above them?  Is it possible that your “Davidic king” understanding is simply erroneous?

    Mike: Now, can that be said in any circumstance about God Himself?

    LU: It isn’t said about God the Father but it is said about the Son whom the Father identifies as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth…

    The bolded words are the only ones we need. (The rest is all a purposeful misinterpretation of clear scripture to push an unscriptural story.)  All we need to know is that, NO, it can never be said about God Himself that He was once lower than anyone at all, so that He had to be placed above those people.  It can and is said about Jesus, which means Jesus can’t possibly be God.

    June 21, 2021 at 6:27 am#871558
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: YHVH the Son, was made lower than the angels when He emptied Himself and became a bondservant. After His resurrection, His Father exalted Him over all things in heaven and on earth, including the angels. See my last post.

    There is no such thing as “YHVH the Son”.  And Jesus – as a human – said he could call 10,000 angels down to take his place or fight for him, right?  So was he really lower than them?  Let’s assume that, as a human being, he was.  Okay.  Has God ever, at any time, been lower than the angels He created?  No. Ipso facto, Jesus is not God.

    It’s absolutely silly to think that God Himself could become less than the angels He created, and then go back to being above them as God again.

    And btw, Jesus is most definitely an angel of God, by definition.  An “angel” is a spirit messenger of God.  Rev 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus is a spirit messenger of his and our God.  Therefore, Jesus is an angel of his and our God.

    June 21, 2021 at 6:44 am#871559
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  If you can tell me how God is “above” both me in Arizona and Tater in NZ at the same time, then I might read your article.

    LU: If I stick pins straight into a globe in every nation, and put the globe under a tabletop, the tabletop is above the globe and all its pins at the same time, the floor is not above the globe and all its pins or even any of its pins. The table is above the whole globe.

    The pins (Inhabitants) in Arizona and NZ are both on the globe and the table top in my example is over the whole globe. The table top is above all the pins “inhabitants” in the globe, even if the pins are standing on their heads or doing cartwheels.

    Really?

    Screenshot (158)

    The word “above” apparently means something different to you than it does to normal people.  To us, it means things that are “in the sky: OVERHEAD“.  How can God be up in the sky over Phoenix while he’s also up in the sky over NZ?

    In your tabletop example, Tater’s “up in the sky/OVERHEAD” is the floor – not the table.  From his “upside down” perspective, he would never look down at his feet and say, “Hey, look at that table top ABOVE me and OVER MY HEAD!”

    June 21, 2021 at 6:58 am#871560
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I just showed you that there is a genitive of subordination. Wallace is a Greek scholar.

    No, you showed me where a Trinitarian claimed that there is a “genitive of subordination”.  How is it marked in the Greek language?  Is there a special dot or line attached to the normal genitive form of the Greek word that makes it clear that this particular genitive is a “genitive of subordination”?  And why did no Bible scholar or translator in the past know about this “genitive of subordination” in Col 1:15?  Only the most recent English translations have “over” instead of “of”, right?  Is this a recent discovery of some marking in the ancient Greek language or something?

    While I wait for you to actually SHOW these things to me (instead of simply making a claim), I’ll point out once again that Jesus is “the beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of every creature” whose “origin is from the distant past” BECAUSE “the LORD created him as the first of His works”.

    Now, you’ve had your fun trying to nonsensically twist all the most natural and straightforward meanings of those 4 verses that align beautifully, but may I also remind you that Jesus is the SON of God, and that sons have beginnings – otherwise they’re not sons of anyone?  Can I remind you that God Himself said, “This day I have begotten you” – meaning there was a day when Jesus was not, and then a day when Jesus was?  Can I remind you that the very word “firstborn” in the text you are trying to argue your way out of right now is a huge clue – since an entity who has existed from eternity would never have the term “firstborn” associated with him in any way?

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