Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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April 2, 2021 at 8:56 am#870038
Lightenup
Participant
Gene,
You say:
Lu……Yes i would , but there are so many that say the opposite, even Jesus’ very own words he said himself.
There is nothing that says the opposite if you understand scriptures properly.
Have a great day,
LU
April 2, 2021 at 11:45 am#870040
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
YOU:Danny…..Carmel was not talking about what we “need” to be saved, he was saying that there is no God the Father without Jesus.
That simply is not true, God the Father always existed, Jesus did not always exist.
ME: Read again what I posted:
John14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
12Otherwise believe for
the very works’ sake.
Now since Jody remained SILENT! IF YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO PRONOUNCE THE TRUTH
ANSWER, WHO DID THE WORKS Gene?
THE FATHER?
THE SON? OR
BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON?
NO FATHER NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO FATHER!
According to Jesus above,
Gene, IF YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE THAT
ETERNALLY
JESUS IS IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN JESUS, BELIEVE
IN THE WORKS SAKE!
THAT STATEMENT BY JESUS MEANS THAT
ALL THE WORK ACCOMPLISHED BY JESUS ON THIS PLANET, IS A PROOF OF HIS
PRE-EXISTENCE!
IN THE ONENESS OF GOD!
THE FATHER IS ETERNAL and since the Father is eternal
THE SON established THE ETERNAL FATHER!
HOW ON EARTH THE FATHER IS
ETERNALLY FATHER WITHOUT HIS SON!
You, Gene, were not A FATHER WHEN YOU WERE BORN, you became A FATHER when your wife gave you your first child, your child established you
A FATHER!
HENCE JESUS ESTABLISHED THE FATHER,
A FATHER! THUS IF
THE FATHER IS ETERNAL,
THE ETERNAL FATHER;
JESUS ESTABLISHED ETERNALLY THE FATHER!
NO FATHER NO SON, NO SON NO FATHER!
SIMPLY, AS THEY ARE ETERNALLY ONE SUBSTANCE HEBREWS 1:3, AND IN THE SAME TIME
DISTINCT: THE FATHER AND THE SON!
ON HIS OWN THE FATHER ACCOMPLISHED
NOTHING absolutely
NOTHING!
THE FACT THAT WE READ IN
John 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The fact that Jesus established the Father on earth! Well clear in
Matthew 6:9 Thus therefore shall you pray:
OUR FATHER who art in heaven,……
John17:4I have glorified thee on the earth;
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,
with the glory which I had,
before the world was, with thee.
6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world.
Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: 8Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed
that I came out from thee,
and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me:
because they are thine:
10And all my (HUMAN) things are thine, (the oneness and equality of the Father and the Son AS A HUMAN )
and thine (SPIRITUAL) are mine;(the oneness and equality of the Father and the Son AS ONE GOD )
and I am glorified in them.
BOTH SPIRIT AND HUMAN
GODMAN
JESUS CHRIST 1John5:20

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 2, 2021 at 11:13 pm#870044
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
In continuation to my last post I want to add what’s hereunder regarding
THE ETERNAL EQUALITY, ONENESS, AND HARMONY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND JESUS:
John5:17 But Jesus answered them:
My Father worketh until now; and I work.
John15:21 But all these things they will do to you
for my name’s sake:
THE FATHER’S NAME’S SAKE, Well clear hereunder
because they know not HIM (THE FATHER)
who sent me.
NOW WHAT IS JESUS’ NAME SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING Gene:
THE WORD OF GOD!
AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL Gene,
THE EQUALITY, ONENESS, AND HARMONY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! KEEP ON READING!
22If I had not come, and spoken to them,
THE FATHER Gene, COULD NEVER COME IN ANY WAY TO BE KNOWN AND ACCEPTED ON EARTH!
NEVER MIND THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH! Continue reading:
they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.
24If I had not done among them the works
that no other man hath done,
they would not have sin;
JESUS IS UNIQUE; ONE OF A KIND!
BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON IN ONE DIVINE FLESH BODY!
ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT IN ONE INSTANT
MORTAL AND IMMORTAL IN ONE INSTANT!
but now they have both seen and
hated both me and my Father.
THEY CRUCIFIED BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER!
NO FATHER NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO FATHER
25But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law:
They hated me without cause.
26But when the Paraclete cometh,
whom I WILL SEND you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father,
he shall give testimony of me.
THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH Gene,
GIVES TESTIMONY BOTH OF
JESUS AS A HUMAN AND THE FATHER AS SPIRIT IN
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN ON EARTH 1John 5:20
27And you shall give testimony,
because you ARE with me from THE BEGINNING.
EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!
THE APOSTLES Gene, believe it or not,
ARE OF THE LOYAL HEAVENLY REALMS OF ANGELS WHO ACCEPTED
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IN THEIR HEARTS AND NEVER JOINED LUCIFER WHO REJECTED JESUS, IN A WAY HIS BROTHER, THE MORNING STAR,
THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT FROM HIS HEART, HIS LIFE SOURCE! Well asserted by Jesus in
John 17:6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me (BEFORE THE WORLD WAS) out of the world. (FROM HEAVEN)
Thine they were, (ANGELS) and to me thou gavest them; (HUMANS)
and they have kept thy word. (JESUS in their heart as”THE WORD” of God, and never rebelled.)
7Now they have known, that all things which thou HAST GIVEN me, (JESUS’ pre-existence)
are from thee:
8Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them;
and they have received them, and have known in very deed that
I came out from thee,
and they have believed that thou didst send me.

NO FATHER NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO FATHER
Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 3, 2021 at 3:57 am#870048
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Carmel….my , my, how you spin your web of deceit, adding words , taking away words , half truths, .
You make it out that “only ” Jesus cohabits with the Father in him, as if that is exclusive and non else have that. . fact the very same condition exists with all who have the Fathers Spirit “in” them. Or haven’t you ever read where Paul said , “know you not ?, that you body is the temple of the living God. So there go another of your deception shot down, I could give you man scriptures that back that up, heres another for you, “that God may be “in” ALL and “through “. ALL.
MANY MORE, no time right now, sufficient to say , your false conclusions do not fit the truth found in our scriptures as far as i can tell. Your preaching your “church indoctrinations” , not the truth written in our scriptures. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
April 3, 2021 at 6:29 am#870051
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
YOU: John 10:29, ” my Father which gave them me,
is “GREATER” than “ALL”. , AND NO MAN is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.
ME: Now the above is the scripture you posted!
Herunder is what you said in order to justify your understanding:
YOU: Anyone who reads John 10: 28-29…..and doesn’t know Jesus was SAYING, God the Father is “GREATER” greater the him is, completely ignorant of scriptural truth. IMO
ME: Now read the scripture you posted again, hereunder, and explain how did you conclude that
somehow it says
the Father is greater than Jesus?
my Father which gave THEM ME, is “GREATER” than “ALL”.
Who are “ALL” for you Gene?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
April 3, 2021 at 7:23 am#870053
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
YOU: You make it out that
“only ” Jesus cohabits with the Father in him,
ME: PURE LIE!
YOU: as if that is exclusive and non else have that.
ME: PURE LIE!
YOU: fact the very same condition exists with all who have the Father’s Spirit “in” them.
ME: PURE LIE DUE TO THE FACT THAT YOU LACK AWARENESS OF JESUS’SPIRITUAL TASK AS
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN!
WHICH ALSO CONTRADICTS YOUR OWN BELIEF, WHEN YOU PROCLAIM THAT JESUS IS
THE ONLY MAN AND ONE UNIQUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN!!!
YOU: Or haven’t you ever read where Paul said , “know you not ?, that your body is the temple of the living God.
PURE MISUNDERSTANDING WHEN YOU REFER TO GOD’S WORK AND PROCESSES REGARDING
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’HUMANITY AS
THE HOUSE OF GOD! John 14:1! John2:16-22
YOU: So there go another of your deception shot down,
ME: HOW ON EARTH MY DECEPTION IS SHOT DOWN, WHILE
YOU NEVER PRODUCED ONE WORD FROM MY POST TO JUSTIFY YOUR CONCLUSIONS!
I could give you man scriptures that back that up, heres another for you,
“that God may be “in” ALL and “through “. ALL.
ME: AGAIN YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS ARE TOTALLY
CARNALLY MINDED!
EXPLAIN SPECIFICALLY AND PRODUCE SCRIPTURE, HOW GOD MAY BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL!
APART OF THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

NOW Gene, WHERE IS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN MY POST WHAT YOU CORRUPTEDLY,
SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE CARNALLY MINDED ONLY IN YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF OF JESUS’HUMANITY,
PERCEIVED AND DECLARED THE ABOVE LIES!
BE HONEST AND SPECIFICALLY CUT AND PASTE WHAT I POSTED IN ORDER FOR ME TO MAKE CLEAR FOR YOU, WHAT YOU SIMPLY CAN NEVER BE AWARE OF REGARDING
JESUS’DEITY
DO THAT Gene PLEASE!
IN THE MEANTIME MINE STANDS AS TRUTH I’M AFRAID!

April 3, 2021 at 11:21 pm#870063
Ed J
Participant
I will say that the Father ALWAYS needed HIS SINGLE BEGOTTEN SON
: FOR THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE
Amen Berean!
April 4, 2021 at 12:01 am#870064
Berean
Participant
Yes Edj, but not only the creation ….
FOR REDEMPTION
AND JUDGMENT ALSO

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (1 Cor. 1:30)
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (John 5:27)
April 4, 2021 at 2:03 am#870065
Berean
Participant
God bless all

April 4, 2021 at 3:05 am#870067
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Carmel…… I simply quote what is clearly written in our bible, and you call that Carnal, while you add your own unbiblical interpretations and have the gall to say i am carnal minded, what a joke that is. Now , you even denying Jesus’ humanity, you truly are a joke at best, may God help you, Carmel.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene

April 4, 2021 at 4:53 am#870070
Berean
Participant
Gene
Now , you even denying Jesus’ humanity,
Don’t you think you’re exaggerating here?
April 4, 2021 at 7:54 pm#870075
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
YOU: Carmel…… I simply quote what is clearly written in our bible, and you call that Carnal,
ME: PURE LIES
YOU: while you add your own unbiblical interpretations and have the gall to say i am carnal minded, what a joke that is.
PROVE IT Gene please for God’s sake!
Now , you even denying Jesus’ humanity,
AGAIN PURE LIES! HOW ON EARTH I COULD DENY JESUS’ HUMANITY AND IN THE SAME TIME DECLARING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN
1John5:20 THAT JESUS IS
BOTH GOD and MAN!
MANIFESTING THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!
SCRIPTURE NEVER CALLED THE FATHER
THE ONLY TRUE GOD except
IN JESUS, and BY JESUS!
YOU: you truly are a joke at best, may God help you, Carmel.
ME: with your own writing above YOU SIMPLY CONFIRMED THAT YOU ARE NOT ONLY
CARNALLY MINDED BUT ALSO AS JESUS SAID YOU ARE STILL
DEAD SPIRITUALLY.
AS USUAL, YOU NEVER PRODUCED A WORD FROM MY POST TO CONTRADICT ME SPECIFICALLY USING SCRIPTURE BY WHICH ACT, WITH EVERY RESPECT;
YOU SIMPLY CONFIRMED THAT
YOU ARE STILL SUBJECT TO YOUR FLESH AND YOUR
CARNAL MIND IS IN FULL GLORY!
Nevertheless, I ALWAYS PRAY JESUS FOR YOU!
HE IS HUMAN not THE FATHER! In a way!!!
John14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask
in my name,
that will I do,
that the Father may be glorified
in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 5, 2021 at 3:05 am#870078
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Carmel, Jesus said the God was the “ONLY” true GOD”, NOT ME, I just believe him, obviously you don’t honestly believe him. Trying to twist what i say is exactly wha you do with what Jesus And so many other scripture also say.
Carmel, a novice should not be a teacher, not only are you corrupt in your teachings , but-think of all the other people you corrupt also. I really hope you are not in a position that allows you to teach those things. Repent Carmel
peace and love to you and yours and……..gene

April 5, 2021 at 4:52 am#870080
Danny Dabbs
Participant
To all,
God raised Jesus from the dead!
Jesus is Alive!
Acts 10:40 God raised him up the third day and gave him
to be revealed,
God bless all,
Danny
April 5, 2021 at 5:58 am#870081
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: The Father identified someone OTHER THAN HIMSELF in Hebrews 1 as the LORD who:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth…
Look at how Hebrews 1 begins…
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he created the world.
Who spoke in the past? God. The ones through whom God spoke were not God. Who spoke in the latter days? God. The one through whom God spoke was not God. Who created the world? God. The one through whom God created the world was not God.
Look at verse 4…
…having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Do you really imagine that there was a time when God became superior to the angels by inheriting a better name than theirs? Up until that time, God was equal to or lesser than the angels? 🤔
Follow the subject of the passage…
1In the past God spoke… God spoke.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say… God said.
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says… God said.
7In speaking of the angels he says… God said.
8But about the Son he says… God said.
10In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth… God created.
13To which of the angels did God ever say… God said.

God is the subject throughout. I can see how people link verse 10 to verse 8, and see it as a continuation of things God was saying about the Son, but the writer doesn’t explicitly say that the words in verse 10 are something God is saying about His Son, right? He does in the previous and following verses, but not in verse 10. So we’re left to our own interpretation. At least four things help interpret the meaning for me…
1. In verses 1 and 2, the writer seems pretty clear that the God who spoke/created and the ones through whom God spoke/created are different entities. The words “through whom HE created” seem explicit.
2. The quote is of Psalm 102 – which is a lamentation to YHWH. There is no indication that the psalmist had secret knowledge about some “Unity of YHVH”, yet used singular pronouns and verbs to describe this unity. You could claim (without any evidence) that the psalmist was making his lamentation to “YHVH the Son”, but then that would make the Son the sole creator of the heavens and the earth, leaving the Father out of it.
3. Verses 1 and 2 align perfectly with the prayer in Acts 4, Colossians 1:16, John 1:3 and 1:10, and 1 Cor 8:6 – all of which distinguish the God who created from the one through whom God created.
4. Jesus himself tells us that God is the one who created. (Mark 10:6, 13:19; Rev 3:14)
You are welcome to your own interpretation, but yours directly contradicts many other scriptures like the prayer in Acts, where there is ZERO doubt that the Apostles knew the difference between the Lord who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and His holy servant Jesus. Jesus knows the difference too…
Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.
Jesus said those words, Kathi.
April 5, 2021 at 6:14 am#870082
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Ed, is it possible that this “light” that came into the world was Jesus?
Ed: Of course MIke!
“And he (YeHoVaH) said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee (Jesus) for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)
What a great scripture to add to the ones I posted! So then we agree that the light who was with God in the beginning and then came into the world and was testified about by John the Baptizer was the one the Apostles knew as Jesus from Nazareth?
April 5, 2021 at 6:30 am#870084
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Additionally , Stephen PRAYED DIRECTLY TO CHRIST.
Yes, as the mediator/priest God set up between Himself and mankind, we can certainly call on Jesus. He even told his disciples to ask for anything in his name, and it will be given, right?
But what did Stephen see when he looked up to heaven?
Acts 7
55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Berean, why could Stephen actually see Jesus – but only the glory of God? Because no man has ever seen God. (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12. *Keep in mind John wrote these AFTER he had seen Jesus with his own eyes and touched him with his own hands.) So what does it tell us that Stephen was able to see the person of Jesus, but NOT the person of God?
Also notice that Stephen clearly distinguished Jesus FROM God by identifying him as one who sat at the right hand OF God.
April 5, 2021 at 6:36 am#870086
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: A ONLY HUMAN mediator who does not hear prayers cannot BE A TRUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN …
I know Jesus is no longer human, so no argument from me on that one. But the actual definition of mediator is one who acts as a go-between for more than one person or group. For Jesus to present any of our prayers to God and make request on our behalf, Jesus must be able to hear our prayers, right? That doesn’t mean he is God. In fact, being the mediator/priest OF God pretty clearly distinguishes him as someone other than God, don’t you think?
April 5, 2021 at 6:42 am#870087
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Gene,
If you knew for sure that these words were said about the Son, would your doctrine change?
Psalm 102
24I say, “O my God (the Son), do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years (the Son’ years) are throughout all generations…
Do YOU know for sure that they were said about the Son? If not, then your question is moot and requires Gene to answer a hypothetical that has no basis in scripture.
April 5, 2021 at 6:45 am#870088
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..VERY GOOD POST, brother. If only all come to see and understand that.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
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John14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

the very works’ sake.

BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON?

ETERNALLY

IN THE WORKS SAKE!

PRE-EXISTENCE!

IN THE ONENESS OF GOD!

THE SON established THE ETERNAL FATHER!

JESUS ESTABLISHED ETERNALLY THE FATHER!

DISTINCT: THE FATHER AND THE SON!

NOTHING absolutely

NOTHING!

John 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

OUR FATHER who art in heaven,……

John17:4I have glorified thee on the earth;

5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

before the world was, with thee.

6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world.

Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: 8Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed

that I came out from thee,

and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me:

because they are thine:

10And all my (HUMAN) things are thine, (the oneness and equality of the Father and the Son AS A HUMAN )

and thine (SPIRITUAL) are mine;(the oneness and equality of the Father and the Son AS ONE GOD )

and I am glorified in them.

GODMAN

JESUS CHRIST 1John5:20

My Father worketh until now; and I work.

for my name’s sake:

THE FATHER’S NAME’S SAKE, Well clear hereunder

who sent me.

THE WORD OF GOD!

22If I had not come, and spoken to them,

23He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.

that no other man hath done,

JESUS IS UNIQUE; ONE OF A KIND!

hated both me and my Father.

NO FATHER NO JESUS

NO JESUS NO FATHER

They hated me without cause.

whom I WILL SEND you from the Father,

the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father,

he shall give testimony of me.

GIVES TESTIMONY BOTH OF

JESUS AS A HUMAN AND THE FATHER AS SPIRIT IN

JESUS CHRIST

GODMAN ON EARTH 1John 5:20

EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

Thine they were, (ANGELS) and to me thou gavest them; (HUMANS)

and they have kept thy word. (JESUS in their heart as”THE WORD” of God, and never rebelled.)

are from thee:

I came out from thee,

NO FATHER NO JESUSNO JESUS NO FATHER

YOU: John 10:29, ” my Father which gave them me,

the Father is greater than Jesus?

my Father which gave THEM ME, is “GREATER” than “ALL”.

Who are “ALL” for you Gene?

CARNALLY MINDED!

JESUS’DEITY

1John5:20 THAT JESUS IS

BOTH GOD and MAN!

MANIFESTING THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

CARNAL MIND IS IN FULL GLORY!

HE IS HUMAN not THE FATHER! In a way!!!

in my name,

that will I do,

in the Son.

I will do it.

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NO FATHER NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO FATHER