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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • March 22, 2021 at 10:13 am#869882
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Danny

    Amen You are right about That .

    Gene AND Jodi teach heresy…

     

     

    March 22, 2021 at 10:21 am#869883
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thank you!  What you said makes sense, I see it and agree with you that they are actually both referring to the Father.

    March 22, 2021 at 10:24 am#869884
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Even without the “AND” IT IS NOT  QUESTION OF THE FATHER BUT OF THE SON …. PAMAGE THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

    But to us there is but one God, the Father,

    of whom are all things, and we in him;

    and one Lord Jesus Christ,

    by whom are all things, and we by him.

    March 22, 2021 at 10:26 am#869885
    Berean
    Participant

    COLOSSIANS 1: 

    all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    March 22, 2021 at 10:33 am#869886
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi, 👍

    Berean, all things came FROM God; all things came THROUGH Jesus.  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

    March 22, 2021 at 10:44 am#869887
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: My understanding fits perfectly with John 20:17, “I go now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”

    ME: This is the true scripture Mike,

    John 20:17 But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    As you can read “I ASCEND TO….” has nothing to do with your own term of  “I GO NOW…..”

    My question Mike is:

    What made you conclude that Jesus meant that HE PHYSICALLY WAS GOING TO HIS FATHER,

    WHEN WE ALL KNOW THAT JESUS REMAINED ON EARTH AT LEAST 40 DAYS  AFTER HIS RESURRECTION ON EARTH AND MANIFESTED HIS GLORIFICATION AS

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    Why IT WAS VITAL THAT JESUS CHRIST BE PROCLAIMED

    THE TRUE GOD?  Mike, you might ask?

    1John5:20And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    SIMPLE: AS SOMETHING TRUE ON THIS PLANET MUST BE 

    MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY AND TANGIBLY  IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED AS TRUE!

    NOW THE FATHER COULD NEVER  FULFILL SUCH TASK HIMSELF AS A SPIRIT!

    A TASK FULFILLED BY HIS SON JESUS, WHOM HE HAS SENT, BOTH FOR THE LOVE AND TRUTH OF GOD THE FATHER AND OF HUMANITY AT LARGE IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    BY WHICH TASK FULFILLED BY JESUS ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS,  GOD THE FATHER ACCREDITED TO HIS SON

    ALL OF HIS GODLY THINGS! Well asserted in

    John17:10  And all my things are thine, and

    thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    Jesus confirms that

    HE IS GODMAN!

     

    MORE TO COME!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    March 22, 2021 at 10:56 am#869888
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:

    all things were created by him, and for him:

    All things were created THROUGH him. “By him” is an older English way of saying “through him”, or “by means of him”.  For example,

    Hebrews 1:1 KJV

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets…

    Of course you know that this means God spoke THROUGH His prophets, right? God’s word came to the people BY MEANS OF the prophets.  Similarly, God is the one who created, but He did that THROUGH Jesus.  But if you are ever in doubt, you need look no further than the prayer in Acts 4…

    24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

    You can see they are praying to the one who made all things, right?

    29And now, Lord, consider their threats, and enable Your servants to speak Your word with complete boldness, 30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”

    Can you also see that Jesus is not the one they were praying to (the one who made all things), but instead he is the holy servant OF the one who made all things?

    Understand?  They asked GOD to perform signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.  Jesus isn’t the one doing those signs.  God is the one who does the signs, but does them THROUGH Jesus or any of His other prophets.

    Acts 2:22

    “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    Who did the miracles?  God.  THROUGH WHOM did God do those miracles?  Jesus.

    Who spoke to the fathers of the past? God.  THROUGH WHOM did God speak to them?  His prophets.

    Who created all things?  God.  THROUGH WHOM did God create them?  Jesus.

     

    I hope this helps.

     

     

    March 22, 2021 at 6:44 pm#869891
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You seem to miss the spirit of one person doing something “through” another person. There are times when Jesus does things “through” the Father, and there are times when the Father does things “through” the Son. Both persons are significant in the action accomplished and both should be honored. You continually diminish the Son’s role in creation.

    Do you equally diminish everybody that works hard to accomplish their father’s will and tell everybody that the child didn’t do the task but instead it was the father that did the task since it was the father that showed him how to do it in the first place and told him to do it?

    Let’s say you ask your son to take your money, go to the store, buy all the supplies and build a fence for the neighbor’s dogs and the son does it. Would you give him credit for building the fence or would YOU take the credit for building the fence? Would it be right for the neighbor to thank only you and recognize only you for building the fence? Of course not. Neither is it right for you to think that the followers of Jesus would only credit the Father for creation unless the Son’s part in creation hadn’t been revealed yet. You know full well that apart from the Son, nothing in heaven and earth was made that was made but you claim that the Son isn’t honored equally as the Father in creation. You would be like the neighbor that praises the father of the boy that did all the work and only gives the boy a pat on the back.

    Have you ever been involved in coaching your son’s team and that team worked hard and followed all your requests, won all the games of the season, and you gave yourself a big tall trophy and all the players got a participation ribbon? Would you tell the news reporter that the team won because of you and not them necessarily, because you could have made any team win?

    That seems to be what you do with creation. The Father gets all the credit for creation, you say because the believers acknowledge YHVH as the creator of heaven and earth in their praise. Do you think that they are saying that Jesus should not be acknowledged also as the creator of heaven and earth? Do you think it is possible that they didn’t yet understand the fullness of YHVH and how Jesus is YHVH their righteousness?

    You still don’t seem to realize the value of that since you continually diminish the name by comparing Jesus to the city with the same name as if that means Jesus isn’t really YHVH, our righteousness. Maybe, just maybe the city has the same name because it is the city of the great king who is named YHVH, our righteousness. I can think of a lot of cities that are named after the great people who lived there.

    Both the Father and the Son take part in the miracles, of creation and all miracles. The Father serves the Son as a perfect father would naturally serve his son, and the Son serves his Father as a perfect son would naturally serve his father. The Father does things “through” the Son and the Son does things “through” the Father. Both serve each other willingly. Both ask each other to do things for them and both do the things asked of them by the other. It’s beautiful! They glorify each other.

    Nice to see you back, Mike.

    LU

    March 22, 2021 at 9:06 pm#869892
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    I beleive That THE SON OF GOD HAD IN HIMSELF AS HIS FATHER,THE LIFE( JOHN 1) AND POWER TO CREATE THE WORLD(COLOSSIANS 2:16)

    And I beleive Also That the Son do all things in communion with His FATHER( all in The gospel OF John WE see That)

    March 23, 2021 at 3:05 am#869894
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean and LU…….MIKE , has presented it right, just as Jodi and I have, Jesus is and was always sub-servant to God the Father, always was and always will be.  “The son of man can do”NOTHING” of  “HIMSELF”.  Saying,  “I “always do those things that pleases the Father”.  And again, “I have come to do “thy” will, O God.”,  not “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL of him who sent him”. and again,  “the son of man came not to do “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL” of him who sent him’. 

    There are many, many, scriptures that show clearly Jesus is completely subject to the “WILL”  of God the Father,  in everything he ever did” , he was never equal to God the Father, but “COMPLETELY ” subject to him in “ALL” THINGS, even to the point of his death on cross or tree.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    March 23, 2021 at 3:39 am#869895
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..Trying to turn the man Jesus our brother into a God, as God the Father is , is IDOLATRY,  JESUS PLAINLY said this,  “that they might know “you” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”,  and Jesus who “YOU” have sent”.

    Every one who is saying Jesus is a true God or trying to make his name the same as God the Father’s , are in direct violation of many many many scriptures. Your reasoning about the Son doing the will of the Father, for his neighbor, making him “equal” in praise , is full of holes, because the neighbor would have never had his fence mended in the first place, if it were not because of the Father telling him to do that in the first place, so the one who should get the greatest honor is the Father.
    Trying to use human reasonings to justify a false teachings,  is futile and only confuses things. That is exactly what all trinitarian teachings do, they muddy the waters of truth. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    March 23, 2021 at 3:47 am#869896
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    What You Say IS NOT TRUE

    SIMPLY NOT TRUE

     

    March 23, 2021 at 10:33 am#869899
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all,

    Since the sin of our first parents there has been NO DIRECT COMMUNICATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. THE FATHER HAS GIVEN THE WORLD INTO THE HANDS OF CHRIST, that THROUGH HIS MEDIATORIAL WORK He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. ALL THE COMMUNION BETWEEN HEAVEN AND THE FALLEN RACE HAS BEEN THROUGH CHRIST. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man’s Substitute and Surety. These HOLY MEN OF OLD HELD COMMUNION WITH THE SAVIOUR who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with CHRIST AND HEAVENLY ANGELS FACE TO FACE.”  {PP 366.1}

     

    March 23, 2021 at 10:49 am#869900
    Berean
    Participant

    Again: Christ is called the Word of God. John 1:1-3. He is so called because God gave His revelations to man in all ages through Christ. It was His Spirit that inspired the prophets. 1 Peter 1:10, 11. He was revealed to them as the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH, the CAPTAIN OF THE LORD’S HOST, Michael the Archangel.” {PP 761.5}

    March 23, 2021 at 9:19 pm#869901
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ed, my last post just asked a simple question. Here it is again…

    (Q) Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    Surely that question is not a “long bloated post”, is it? Surely you could just answer the question instead of diverting, right?

    Hi Mike,

    Yes very simple

    A Christ

    March 25, 2021 at 5:53 am#869928
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ed,
    Q) Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    A) Christ

    Hi Mike,

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the HolySpirit. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.” (John 1:29-34)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    March 25, 2021 at 9:32 am#869931
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    From the other thread you said: But you won’t accept the scriptures that speak about his divinity. So it is YOU who ignores much of God’s word.

    ME:

    Give me ONE scripture that I ignore and do not apply to other passages? Me not interpreting a passage as you do is not me ignoring scripture. Moreover I argue that your interpretations are false because you ignore passages that are to be directly applied in order to give the truthful understanding.

    I will take from two posts I gave to Berean earlier and give some of that to you.

    The promise is called the divine nature,

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine (Theios) nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

    Below that same promise is called the Holy Spirit,

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17: 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (Theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

    The Spirit bears witness to our spirit we are children of God.

    Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    We are offspring of God and we ought not to think of the Godhead/divine nature/His Spirit, to which we are promised to receive, is like that of false idols.

    The Holy Spirit is our one God the Father’s Spirit, where the intelligence, character and Powers of His Spirit are what make Him identified as being Divine. As He is the ONLY being where OF Himself He exists of this divine nature, He is therefore the only true God. For us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER.

    Our one true God YHVH ‘s Spirit is the SOURCE, to which He shares at measure according to His will and purpose with His created.  The fruits of His Spirit to which He shares with others is His divine nature living within others. 

    Gene and I DO NOT DENY regarding Jesus that, ” For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    Such is defined by the below passages as well as by apply the passages I gave above,

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being FULL of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Danny, give me the scriptures that you say I won’t accept that speak of Jesus’s divine nature?

    I certainly accept this passage,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

     

    March 25, 2021 at 10:08 am#869932
    Berean
    Participant

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

    Jodi

    THIS MEAN JESUS HAVE THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER AND ALSO       OUR HUMAN NATURE.(NOW GLORIFIED)….

     

    BEING FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ANOTHER THING

    JESUS ON EARTH WAS GOD AND MAN FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT

     

    March 25, 2021 at 10:40 am#869933
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    The image of the Son, Jesus Christ our Lord is made clear by Paul in Romans 8,

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    WHO HAS BASIC UNDERSTANDING TO WHICH THE WORD OF GOD COULDN’T BE MADE ANY MORE CLEAR????

    Paul gives us what the image of being a Son looks like, you have the Spirit bearing witness to your spirit and you have that Spirit directing all your ways leading you.  This would then be the VERY IMAGE of the Son to which we are promised to be made into. 

    Paul also says, Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. This matches perfectly with the promise Ezekiel spoke of where God is going to give us His Spirit and cause us to walk in all his ways.

    Paul likewise tells us that we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (ANOINTED)

    When we read of Jesus having received the Spirit not by measure called an ANOINTING and we read that he was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, such is how we see the anointed Jesus existing in the image of the Father being an heir of God and being His Son.  What Jesus received is exactly what we are promised to receive and is exactly what we are told makes us a Son of God. THINK ABOUT THAT CLEAR GIVEN TRUTH FOR A MOMENT. Such is exactly why we are also then told that we are to be made into the image of the Son Jesus and that we are heirs of God JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST JESUS. 

    There was no Son of God until God declared him at the river Jordan when Jesus came up from the water and received the fullness of the Spirit to dwell within him. It is directly given to you that there was NO SON during the time of David.  It is directly given to you that God would one day be a Father unto David’s Son.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

    Paul teaches this likewise in,

    Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

    First you have the seed of David and then he is made into God’s Son identified as the anointed.

    Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    The image of the Son is he who was anointed with the full measure of the Spirit where by such God directed all his ways making him a perfect man. 

    March 25, 2021 at 11:36 am#869934
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Please provide scripture that gives definition to the divine nature and the definition of the Holy Spirit showing how they are different.

    As you say Jesus HAS both, so for each one what is it that they each give to him?

     

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