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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,021 through 22,040 (of 25,932 total)
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  • March 18, 2021 at 5:01 am#869785
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    ONCE AGAIN YOU SEE ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE BIBLICAL FACTS (THE SECOND) AND YOU NEGLECT THE FIRST WITHOUT WHICH THE SECOND (THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST) MAY NOT SENSE.

    March 18, 2021 at 6:00 am#869787
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @berean

    I agree with you.

    They only see one part of the story.

    March 18, 2021 at 6:10 am#869788
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    If you APPLY the passages I just gave to you that you IGNORE, to that of Philippians 2, maybe you could realize how your private interpretation is not just bogus but so destructive to the significant truth Paul gives in that chapter.

    Likewise, when you IGNORE scripture that directly tells you when and how Jesus of Nazareth became anointed (Christos) you will not ever come close to the truth. You and others can’t even seem to admit that there are other Messiahs/Christos spoken of in scripture, those who are anointed by YHVH where through His Spirit they carry out acts of His will and/or are consecrated to be a king, a priest, or a prophet.

    Moreover, when the Spirit of YHVH is upon you at measure in that measure you are an image of Him, and if you have the fullness of the Spirit dwelling in you all the more you are in the image of YHVH existing in the form of Him.

    John 12: 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Berean, you choose to not even consider so many scriptures and the understanding that they are directly giving you.

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh THE WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    WHY is seeing Jesus seeing him who sent Jesus? Because Jesus received the fullness of the Spirit just as was prophesied, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge as well as the powers of YHVH’s Spirit that can heal the sick and perform all manner of signs and miracles. Not only this but above all Jesus was humbled to not use those gifts according to his own will, they were used to do YHVH’s works alone, which is exactly why Jesus said what he did in John 12:45. Such has EVERYTHING to do with Philippians 2 where you APPLY WHO it is that Paul is speaking to, those who have fellowship of the Spirit, those sent out just as Jesus was sent out into the world. Those not of the world as Jesus was not of the world.

    Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    The mind of the ANOINED JESUS who was in the form of God having the Spirit of God without measure, was to give all glory to God, no vainglory. The mind of the anointed Jesus was doing things out of love for his brethren. Paul is teaching to those also sent out into the world to be like minded with him in this manner.

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    This passages is not speaking of a pre-existing spirit being, it is speaking of the mind of the man who was anointed (Christos) with the fullness of the Spirit who thus was existing in the form of God. He was sent into the wilderness to be tested, to be humbled, where he did indeed find himself in the fashion of a man with his weak flesh that hungered. He came out of the wilderness and was a faithful servant obedient even unto his death.

    The anointed Jesus was an example and those following in his footsteps preaching the word, performing miracles and giving prophecy with the Spirit upon them were going to be persecuted just as he was. If they were like minded with the anointed Jesus they too would receive glory.

    Revelation 2: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Berean, it is just complete DESTRUCTION, your private interpretation you give to a passage in Philippians 2, where you disregard the sum to that which the bible teaches and use the passage to speak what is in fact antichrist. God’s words spoken by Paul was to make Jesus a human example to give fellow brethren in the fellowship of the Spirit strength and hope for perseverance so that they too could receive the crown of life.  They were to have the mind of the anointed Jesus of Nazareth, not follow vainglory but do all things to the glory of God and fellow man.

     

    March 18, 2021 at 6:28 am#869789
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    That promise we read from Isaiah (11, 42, 45, 46, 61) where a son of man is anointed with God’s Spirit and sent out into the world to be our savior.

    RAISED unto Israel a Savior Jesus,

    Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    YHVH made heaven and earth ALONE, He made man. Jesus was a man to whom YHVH raised up in righteousness begetting him of the Spirit without measure so that He could direct all his ways sending him out to become our savior. He was in the form of YHVH where as Jesus taught in John 12, that seeing him was actually seeing God, for all that Jesus did and spoke was God’s work not his own. 

    March 18, 2021 at 6:46 am#869790
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Jodi, I do believe that Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of His Father Yahweh God.
    The Bible clearly says Luke 4:18
    “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO BRING GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

    So, what’s your point?

    God bless,

    Danny

    March 18, 2021 at 7:09 am#869791
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I DO NOT HAVE A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, I HAVE THE INTERPRETATION THAT GOD GIVES TO HIS CHILDREN
    … WHEN WILL YOU BECOME WISE AND LISTEN TO WHAT GOD IS TELLING YOU IN HIS WORD?

    March 18, 2021 at 9:26 am#869792
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    Do you realize that while you believe that Jesus came from God the Father implanting Mary supernaturally by the means of artificial insemination of David’s sperm, Jodi believes that Mary was implanted supernaturally by the means of artificial insemination of Joseph’s sperm, from what I can make out of what she wrote anyway. You believe that Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph, she does.

    Neither is correct.

    March 18, 2021 at 9:37 am#869793
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This verse you use is about Cyrus, not the Messiah.

    Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. It was My hands that stretched out the heavens, and I ordained all their host. 13I will raise up Cyrus in righteousness, and I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild My city and set My exiles free, but not for payment or reward, says the LORD of Hosts.”

    LU

    March 18, 2021 at 9:53 am#869794
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all AND God bless

     

    March 18, 2021 at 9:59 am#869795
    Lightenup
    Participant

    That is sweet, thanks Berean!

    March 18, 2021 at 10:18 am#869796
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU 

    Hallelujah

    March 19, 2021 at 3:06 am#869810
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……..“there ain’t nothing in this world worth a solitary dime but,  old dogs, children, and watermelon wine” … according to the song , by Tom T Hall.

    This is the way I believe we get true peace, as written in scriptures,  “the LORD bless you, and keep you, the LORD, make his face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the LORD , lift up his countenance upon you, AND GIVE YOU “PEACE”. 

    peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    March 19, 2021 at 3:53 am#869811
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..Actually both are correct,  Joseph also carried  the DNA of king David , which is harder to believe, God Preserved DNA of king David himself or took it from David’s descendent, and placed it into Mary’s womb,   or as you people believe , God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God .

    We know a human Sperm can be preserved and implanted later into a women, that is even done today, but “morphing” a being of some kind into a human being has never been done by God or man kind. There would be no point for God to even consider to do that , it would prove nothing to the human race ever, even if he did that anyway. Not to even mention it would not even fulfill all the prophesies written about him. You people turning Jesus into a God born from a human women is a lie>

    “Unto us (true believers). There is but “One” God,  “ONLY” and One Mediator between that ONE GOD and men, the “MAN” Jesus, the anointed human being.
    THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IS A PURE “LIE”, created by SATAN HIMSELF AND HIS FOLLOWERS.  2ths2  is exactly what you people have turned the “IMAGE” of  the “Man” Jesus into, and will suffer the results written there at his return by his own mouth. “REPENT”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    March 19, 2021 at 9:43 am#869813
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all

    1John 5:11-12
    [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

     

    March 19, 2021 at 9:51 am#869814
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Yes, Isaiah in chapter 45,  from the very first verse is speaking about the Messiah Cyrus.

    Regardless if you do not believe that the bible contains instances of dual fulfillment, the passage that I gave from Isaiah 45, it’s content therein, is spoken elsewhere where it is directly applied to the Messiah Jesus. 

    Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. 

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    The Messiah Cyrus – raised up in righteousness with YHVH directing all his ways delivering captives from Babylon captivity.

    The Messiah Jesus– called to righteousness with YHVH directing all his ways doing YHVH’s works in YHVH’s name delivering captives from sin and death unto eternal life.

     

     

    March 19, 2021 at 10:05 am#869815
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    …or as you people believe , God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God .

    Gene, you have been here for probably over 10 years and if you believe that those believing in the pre-existence of the Son actually proclaim this:

    “God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God,”

    YOU HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY IN ERROR AND QUITE CONFUSED!!!

    You might be happy to know that the pre-existent Son did not die in order to be brought forth into the womb of Mary. He merely emptied Himself of what was necessary in order to be put into the womb. I liken it to the spirit part of a human being which God places within the fertilized egg.

    I believe that the pre-existent Son was the spirit and soul part of the baby. The flesh part was the part that Mary gave to the baby, IMO.

    God bless you and keep you too! LU

     

    March 19, 2021 at 10:19 am#869816
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This passage is not referring to Jesus either:

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

    Blessings, LU

    March 19, 2021 at 10:39 am#869817
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS, source, origin, lineage, ancestry) Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Mathew says that he IS GIVIING US THE BOOK OF Jesus’s DNA showing how it is that he is a biological son of Abraham and David.

    2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; ….15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations (GENEA, fathered, begotten, of the samse stock) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    Matthew gave us the book, a book that says Jesus is biologically the son of Abraham and David through Joseph, and Joseph was the husband of Mary, to whom the child was born. 

    Now how is Mary going to be able to be found with child without her knowing Joseph first?

    Such a miracle (a sign to identify the great coming king of the house of David) could only be found if it was of the Holy Spirit.

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    March 19, 2021 at 11:12 am#869818
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    YHVH who is the unity of Father, Son and Spirit, created the world. In some contexts YHVH is more specifically the Father who by His power and outstretched Arm spread out the world. His outstretched Arm was the Son.

    John 12: 36…These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many [p]signs in their sight, they still were not believing in Him. 38This happened so that the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke would be fulfilled: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WILL NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND [q]BE CONVERTED, AND SO I WILL NOT HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him.

    YHVH alone, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, created the world. The Father within the unity, sends the Son to be the Messiah within the flesh of a human. The Father gives the Son who is clothed in flesh, His Spirit to lead him.

    I hope that helps, LU

    March 19, 2021 at 11:22 am#869819
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You asked:

    Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?

    Matthew has a pattern throughout the list of generations…so and so begat so and so…UNTIL the list comes to Joseph, then the pattern stops. It does not say or imply that Joseph begat Jesus. Instead, the pattern changes and emphasizes that Joseph was married to the woman of whom Jesus was born.

    15Eliud was the father of Eleazar,

    Eleazar the father of Matthan,

    Matthan the father of Jacob,

    16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,

    of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Also, as I have pointed out to you months ago, “of whom” is written in the feminine pronoun and refers to Mary.

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