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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • October 18, 2020 at 6:52 am#866875
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi,

    I was also wondering if you accept my “children of Abraham from stones” analogy.  You didn’t try to rebut it, so I assume you acknowledge it as legit.  If God foretold that He would make a son for Abraham out of a stone, and then did so, no amount of scriptures talking about how this son would be/is/was a human son of Abraham would change the fact that he also preexisted that nature as a stone.   It is the same with Jesus.  This is all we’re saying to you.  We all agree that Jesus was foretold to come as a human, and then did exist on earth as a human.  But even a zillion scriptures about his existence as a human would not eliminate the many scriptures that speak about his existence before taking on human nature.

    Cheers.

    October 18, 2020 at 6:58 am#866876
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …..you have to look at the over context of why Jesus said that, if you do you will see that they thought there link to  Abraham was more important then  Jesus was, the used that over and over to show their importance in life was by there relationship to Abraham,  that is why John the Baptist  also said to them,  “God could raise up these rocks to be childern to  Abraham”  .  It was a major stumbling block to those people preventing them from seeing the importance of Jesus in their lives, so Jesus being fustrated with them,  said  that he was more important  then Abraham was , by saying to them that he was before or more “important ” to them then Abraham.  He even went further and told them that Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus, which also shows Jesus was not even in existence at the time of Abraham.

    The word used there is also defined  in the Greek language, as a person ahead of in importance. As I recall.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    October 18, 2020 at 7:02 am#866877
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    nayasnana: It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially.

    Welcome, nayasnana!

    This one makes it hard to deny that in some cases, the word “logos” clearly refers to a sentient being.

    Revelation 19

    12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.…

    The entirety of John 1 and the beginning of 1 John 1 makes it equally difficult.

    October 18, 2020 at 7:12 am#866878
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    nayasnana: He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16)…

    This appears as if it was copied and pasted from a JW.org publication.  I have no problem with the JWs, and actually interpret the scriptures much like they do in most cases.  I would add this scripture to the fine points made above…

    Micah 5:2

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Note that this clearly foretells Jesus.  Note also that he has “origins”, and that they are not “from eternity” – but from a long time ago.  This one verse makes it clear that Jesus isn’t God Almighty, but that he did in fact exist before he was born of Mary on earth.  Two birds with one stone. 😉

    October 18, 2020 at 8:27 am#866879
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “He even went further and told them that Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus, which also shows Jesus was not even in existence at the time of Abraham.”

    Me

    wrong Gene
    the Son of GOD already existed, BUT not like the Son of man.

    It’s as simple as that.

     

    October 18, 2020 at 10:19 am#866880
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself.

    JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word,  scripture does not say that,

    It says he is “called” the word of God,

    it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    look up the meaning of the word “called” ,  it shows it as a “sur-name” ,  not to mention Jesus himself said this, 

     

    ME: Gene, I hope you ACCEPT SCRIPTURES NOT ONLY WHEN IT PLEASES YOU, BUT ALWAYS! READ HEREUNDER:

    Genesis 35:18 And when her soul was departing for pain, and death was now at hand,

    she called the name of her son Benoni, (is he BENONI?)

    that is, The son of my pain: but his father

    called him Benjamin, ( is he BENJAMIN?) 

    that is,The son of the right hand.

     

    ME: NOW TO:

    John 12:48…..He that rejects me and recieve not my words has one that judges him:

    the words that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him in the last day. 49,  For I have not spoken of (from) “MYSELF”; but the Father which sent me, “He” gave me commandment, what I should     “say”, and what I should “speak”. 

    Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? ,

    not to me ,

    that sounds like The man Jesus was telling us exactly what God the Father was telling him to say to us. 

     

    ME: Now Gene IN WHICH SCRIPTURE YOU READ :

    “the words (PLURAL) that I have spoken,”……

    IN ALL THE VERSIONS HEREUNDER IT IS SINGULAR, “THE WORD”

    KJV, ESV,BSB,NAS,NKJ,ASV 

    Now read

    DRB.version hereunder:

    John12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words,

    hath one that judgeth him;

    THE WORD (Jesus, the son of man)

    that I have spoken,

    CONFIRMED:

    John5:22 And he hath given him power

    to do judgment,

    because he is the Son of man.

     

    Now answer Gene, Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? 

    I’M AFRAID HE DOES Gene:

    JESUS CALLED HIMSELF 

    THE SPOKEN WORD OF GOD ITSELF, THE LOGOS,  

    THE WORD OF GOD

    Since He shall judge all men in the last day.

     

    October 18, 2020 at 10:29 am#866881
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….I completely agree with your last post to Proclaimer.  But now back to your post to me,  your are right the subject matter did not change until version 18,  but verse is still talking about God and his word, not God and  Jesus being his word.

    Gene, we agree that the subject remains the same until verse 18.  And that means the subject “became flesh“, “dwelled among us on earth“, “had a glory of the only begotten son from the Father“, and had the following words said about him by John the Baptizer: “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ ”

    Can any of those things be said about “God and his word“, like you said?  If not – and you agree that the subject didn’t change from vs 14 to vs 18 – then you really have no argument, and therefore no reason to not understand that John was talking about Jesus the entire time, sometimes calling him “the Word”, other times “the Light”, and other times “only begotten Son of God” and “Jesus”.

     

    October 18, 2020 at 10:43 am#866882
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  …so Jesus being fustrated with them,  said  that he was more important  then Abraham was , by saying to them that he was before or more “important ” to them then Abraham.

    It is true that saying you are “before” another can be a way of giving yourself more importance than them.  But look at the context, Gene…

    John 8

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was, I was!”

    So it’s easy to see that Jesus was answering their argument concerning his AGE – not his “importance” as compared to Abraham’s.  Their claim was about his AGE, and his response therefore naturally addressed that claim about his AGE.

    October 18, 2020 at 10:46 am#866883
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer:  But you need honest people in the process to make that happen.

    Unfortunately there are people here who are not honest.

    They cannot answer a simple yes or no.

    Thus, their answers must be coming from the Evil One.

    Mike: Please stop these personal attacks.

    Sorry Mike, but I am merely quoting scripture like you do sometimes. It’s what happens in these forums.

    Did I call anyone a moron or ugly or other such insult?

    What is it about my statement that is wrong exactly?

    Did I even mention who I am applying this too in my statement?

    If not, then how do you know who I am talking about. Could it be that you see as I do regarding that?

    So should we just pretend this isn’t happening because of political correctness?

    And finally, is this scripture wrong?

    All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

    Some things for you to ponder Mike.

    Challenging people with scripture is not hate Mike. It is truth.

    Some people think truth is hate speech because they hate the truth.

    So who is it that hates? The one that loves truth or hates it?

    I believe your analysis on this has been proven wrong.

    October 18, 2020 at 10:54 am#866884
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who was the first to be with God?

    If Jesus is the Word become flesh and if he wasn’t the one who was with God before the cosmos, then please reveal to me the identity of the very special person who was first to be with God?

    Somebody had to be first right? Was it Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh? Was it Michael the archangel? Was it a man called Bruce?

    If you do not know, then how do you know for sure it wasn’t Jesus before he came down from Heaven?

    Even this one small point destroys the argument that assumes that the only begotten of the Father wasn’t the first born of all creation.

    So you see, we do not even need all the scriptures that explicitly state that he was the first. But when you consider those scriptures, well that ends the argument.

    October 18, 2020 at 10:56 am#866885
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: she called the name of her son Benoni, (is he BENONI?)

    You can’t argue Carmel’s point here, Gene.  I’ll add some more scriptures to his point…

     

    Luke 2:21 And when eight days were fulfilled to circumcise the child, then his name was called
    Jesus, having been so called by the messenger before his being conceived…

    Genesis 38:29 And she said, “What a breach you have made for yourself!” Therefore his name was
    called Perez… 

    Genesis 38:30 Afterward his brother came out with the scarlet thread on his hand, and his name was called Zerah…

     Genesis 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray you, with that same red pottage;
    for I am faint: therefore his name was called Edom…

     Genesis 25:26 Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau’s heel, so his name was called Jacob…
     

    Judges 8:31 And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech… 

    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon
    his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God…
     

    Genesis 35:10 And God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name.” 

    October 19, 2020 at 3:43 am#866896
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I am not arguing that a name cannot be applied to someone or anything for that matter,  because of some kind of “atribute ”  Satan is called a snake, but is he “really” a snake.  Jacobs name was changed to Israel, why? Because he prevailed with God.  So atributes can be applied to any thing,  as I already explained ,  Jesus spoke to us the words of God,  so he certanly could be “called”,  or sur-named the word of God , I have no problem with that.  But trying to link that with some form of preexting existence, like John 1:1 , is pure garbage. 

    As I explained sur-names were  given to man deciples, James and John , the Son of Thunder, Peter a rock or stone, we’re they really Sons of Thunder, or was Peter really a stone or rock? I doubt it, but  Did they have some kind of  “atribute” of those things,  yes I believe they did.

    As I said if what they are saying was John’s intention in saying what he said,  then why would he say it that way?  Was John so ignorant that he would not have said ,  in the beginning was Jesus, who is God’s word, and was with God and was God?  because is that not what you people are saying?  Some here say Jesus was God , because it says the word was God, so if your going to apply the first part of the word being Jesus then you must  also apply the last part also, then Jesus is your God. .  

    Fact is John was talking about God the Father who is Spirit and he mover on the face of this earth and he said the words let the be, and brought it all about himself. Jesus was not there, not even in existence, till he was born on this earth . “for unto us a child is born, unto us a Son has been given”.  The “us” mentioned there is mankind.  Notice it dosen’t say a  son has been “morphed” into a child from another “existence” ,  and been born unto us, does it? 

    Please give John enough sense to say exactly and clearly what he meant, and stop forcing  texts to say or mean what they do not say or mean.  Espically when they are in counterdiction with so many other scriptures.

    Mike,  Paul said the Berean’s  searched  the scripture to see if what they were hearing was true or not,  now my question to you is what scriptures was he referring to?  It could not be the newtestimate, it hadn’t been written yet?  SO he was speaking of the OLD TESTAMENT, right?

    So what ever people say does not match up with the old testament , it is simply not true. And when God said he and he “alone” and by “himself”, created every thing, you should automatically , Jesus didn’t and he couldn’t have been there either,  because it say he did it “alone”, and by “himself”.  You can find that written CLEARLY in OUR OLD TESTEMENT,  SCRIPTURES.

    SO if what people say dosen’t match up to what the old Testement says I question it very seriously.  Because I believe what Paul said still applies today?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

     

    October 19, 2020 at 4:52 am#866897
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Mike you have no scripture that says

    Jesus was there

    at any time of creation at all. 

    If it exists please post it.

     

    ME: Gene let me hear your comments regarding the scripture hereunder:

    IF I WERE YOU I PASS IT TO Jodi SHE IS LESS CARNAL MINDED THEN YOU ARE, WITH EVERY RESPECT

     

    Isaiah 48:15 I, even I (GOD ALMIGHTY) have SPOKEN (AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST) and called him: ( WHO and WHAT IS HE CALLED OR as you prefer NAMED BY GOD?)

    I have brought him, and his way is made prosperous. ( WHO WAS BROUGHT and HIS WAY, DEFINITELY IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION, IS MADE PROSPEROUS?)

    16Come ye near UNTO ME  and hear this: (Gene, WHO IS SPEAKING NOW?)

    I have not SPOKEN (AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST) in secret from THE BEGINNING: (definitely of creation)

    from the time before it was done,(CREATION)

    I was there,( WHO IS “I” Gene?)

    and now the Lord God (ALMIGHTY)

    hath sent me,( WHO WAS SENT Gene? AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST, from the beginning, NOT AT THE RIVER JORDAN and OUT INTO THE WORLD, like Jody’s CARNAL MINDED INTELLIGENCE.)

    and his spirit.( WHO IS THIS SPIRIT THAT WAS SENT TOGETHER WITH WHO CALL HIMSELF “I”?)

    17Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:( WHO IS HIM?)

    I am the Lord THY GOD ( WHO IS HIM ?)

    that teach thee profitable things, that govern thee in the way that thou walkest. ( WHO TEACH THESE  THINGS OBVIOUS SPIRITUAL?)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    October 19, 2020 at 5:38 am#866899
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Was John so ignorant that he would not have said ,

     in the beginning was Jesus, who is God’s word, and was with God and was God?

    Gene, your above reasoning confirms YOUR CARNAL MINDED STATE!

    John was a UNIQUE SPIRITUAL WRITER TAUGHT BY JESUS HIMSELF and as a spiritual gospel it must be mysterious and only revealed precisely by the Holy Spirit the source and author of God’s own “WORD”.Well asserted precisely by Jesus in

    John 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself;

    but what things soever he shall hear,(IN RELATION TO ME AND MY WORK) he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

    14He shall glorify me;

    because he shall receive of mine, ( GLORY AS GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE, John 17:2, John 20:17, 1 John 5:20, Ephesians 4:6, Isaiah 9:6)and shall shew it to you.

    15 All things whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    All scripture is written not to be literally understood since it is GOD’S SPIRITUAL MESSAGE especially  John’s gospel.

    Just reflect if John had written that verse according to your discretion, which would have been the only verse in the entire scripture, proclaiming in black on white JESUS IS GOD, 

    what would have happened not to the gospel itself, but to Christianity and to the church itself.

    It is the fact that Jesus is proclaimed

    GODMAN ON EARTH BY JOHN IN THAT MANNER IN ALL HIS WRITING

    THAT CHRISTIANITY GREW THE BIGGEST RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY

    DESPITE THE VARIOUS UNDERSTANDING OF

    WHO JESUS WAS!

    Pinpointed out in

    Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.

    Humans would be judged according to what they believe.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    October 19, 2020 at 5:42 am#866900
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….I am not arguing that a name cannot be applied to someone or anything for that matter,  because of some kind of “atribute ”…  Jesus spoke to us the words of God,  so he certanly could be “called”,  or sur-named the word of God , I have no problem with that. 

    Okay Gene, so then just admit that to Carmel, instead of trying to play semantics games.  Jesus’s “name is called the Word of God” is equivalent to Jesus BEING IDENTIFIED AS “the Word of God”.  Ie: Jesus IS “the Word of God” – just like Peter IS the person known as “Rock”.  Understand?

    Who is “Rock”?  Well, Peter of course.

    Who is “the Word of God”?  Well, Jesus of course.

    So if John wrote, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God“, rational people would understand that it was the PERSON who has the nickname “Rock” that John was talking about.  A rational person wouldn’t go out of their way to claim that “being strong like a rock” is one of God’s attributes, and that “strength attribute” is what was with God in the beginning.  It’s the same with “the Word” being with God in the beginning.  You are free to claim that this refers to various literal words that God spoke being “with Him” in the beginning, but rational people realize that Jesus IS “the Word”, and that John 1:1 is about Jesus being with God in the beginning, and John 1:14 is about the time when Jesus became flesh and dwelled on earth.

    At the very least, stop playing semantics games with Carmel over this point, because you’ve just admitted that he was right.

    October 19, 2020 at 5:43 am#866901
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel. …..Man you are so far out there in delusion, you make anything out of scriptures you want to m even though it is not stated like that , nor even intended to be taken that way.  No one can take what you are saying seriously Carmel, you seem to have long given yourself over to all the deceptions m in modern CHRISTANITY.

    My hope for you is that you will come out of all that someday.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    October 19, 2020 at 6:16 am#866902
    Jodi
    Participant

    Mike,

    ALL of scripture must agree, I do not see that at all with your doctrine, nor with the doctrine of others. If you don’t apply clear given truths to certain passages you are going to understand them incorrectly, which is exactly what you and others do with verse 58 of John 8.

    Below shows how all the words of YHVH does indeed AGREE,

    In John 8, Jesus identifies himself as to who he is when he says “I AM” even BEFORE verse 58!

    It doesn’t seem like you or others pay mind to this at all.

    John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Jesus identifies himself in these passages exactly according to the MAN according to prophecy that was promised to come into the world, upon an anointing. Jesus identifies himself in these passages as the prophet to whom YHVH would raise up from among his brethren and put His words into His mouth, and for those who listened it brought them out of darkness and into the light.

    Below we read YVHV speaking of the son of Jesse, and Jesus in John 8 is identifying himself as this son,

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…..5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..

    Below we read YHVH speaking of one raised up among brethren, and Jesus in John 8 is telling you that is who he is,

    Deut 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Mike, the son of Jesse did not create the heavens and the earth, YHVH did, go read Isaiah 44 and 45, as Gene said, YHVH created all things He says ALONE, BY HIMSELF. Not only when you read of this declaration YHVH as our sole Creator, doing so by His wisdom and power, you likewise read within the same chapters YHVH’s purpose and plan concerning His creation. He made the people and there is ONE CHOSEN, ONE whom YHVH sets apart from the people to give him of His glory who would be for a light.

    THEN in ISAIAH 46 you even read that this man being this light executing YHVH’s purpose for His creation was SPOKEN by YHVH since the beginning.

    Below we read YHVH speaking of one who YHVH makes into His firstborn, higher than all kings, and Jesus in John 8 is telling you that is who he is this man of prophecy,

    Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 

    David prophesied, and he rejoiced, as his son would be a light and a savior. David knew YHVH was going to set his son before all, that his son would be his own lord, a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    Not only did David know this, but Abraham knew it as well of his seed also. Abraham saw his own seed before him, a lord over him, and Abraham rejoiced.

    AND THE CLEAR TRUTH, before Abraham even existed his own seed was declared from the beginning a lord of lords and a king of kings, he was declared that he would be be made into YHVH’s firstborn overall of creation. Jesus declares that such is he.

    Which brings us to,

    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    How confused are they? Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw him. YHVH had told Abraham that of his seed all nations would be blessed. Before Abraham even existed this was marked out by YHVH, before Abraham even existed YHVH’s word was that this seed of Abraham was promised to receive FIRST PLACE in all things, be not just a firstborn overall creation, but be a king of kings and a lord of lords over all for eternity, where he sits upon his throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    JESUS was telling them that is who he was, “I AM” he. 

    October 19, 2020 at 6:38 am#866903
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…… You playing semantics here not me,   I have shown you all here how scripture says in the beginning “God Said” , it does not say JESUS SAID, now does it?  So who’s word was spoken in the beginning?, God’s word and who was those words that were spoken. ,  GOD’S WORDS.  

    Playing word games is saying John meant something else then what he actually said, now that’s word games.   Then if you believe that the word mentioned there is Jesus, then you have to also believe Jesus is God, because it says that also.  But Jesus said this,  “that they might know “you” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”, BUT wait John says (according to your way of thinking) , The word “Jesus”, ” is God”.  But Jesus says there is “only” one true God”.  

    These aren’t word games they are what scriptures actually say.  Your still not getting the point, something being “called” something does not actually make you that something you are call , no, Peter is not a Rock,  nor is the Son of Thunder , actually sons of Thunder, nor is Jesus “himself” actually the word of God “himself” even though he carries the “sur-name” of the word of God.

    We could say the same thing about all the prophets also did not God speak his word through them?, and in the “same” way spoke through Jesus who was a Prophet also.  Jesus knew and even said those words were not from himself  but we’re the words given him to say to us,  by God the Father.

    Jesus is the mediator between God and us, and as all mediators do he tell us th words of him who sends them, and those words are not their  words  they are speaking,  but the words of  them who sent him,  or haven’t you ever read,  “but unto us there is but “ONE” GOD,   and ONE mediator between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”. 

    Maybe you not following what theses people are saying, they are not saying Jesus speaks God words to us , what they are saying is that The man Jesus “IS” “himself” God’s word. As I have said that’s like saying Peter is a “actual” rock, like you would find at a rock query some where.  Again I say,  having an “atribute” is not the same thing as being the atribute it self. Jesus has the “atribute” of the word of God,   because he “quotes” the Fathers words to us, but none of that actually make him the Father or his word himself , and this is not a word game, it’s the truth.

    We all will be given new names, even Jesus , but will that change who we are? While it might bring out a characteristic we “have”, but it will not change who we are?  IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    October 19, 2020 at 6:48 am#866904
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    So NO, absolutely NOT was Jesus telling people that he existed before Abraham. 

    In John 8 Jesus reveals who he is, all according to prophecy, all according to YHVH’s word since the beginning, before the world even was, LONG BEFORE Abraham even was.

    From the beginning Jesus was marked out TO BE eternally a king of kings and a lord of lords, to be made BEFORE ALL THINGS, have first place in everything, promised to be made a king higher than all kings.

    Even when Jesus was raised from the dead, he taught of himself AND HIS GLORY that he entered, according to prophecy, 

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them,O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Mike what is Jesus’s GLORY according to prophecy? Go read 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 8 and 89, Isaiah 11 and 53, as a starting point to find out.

    and then know this, such glory was FROM GOD for Jesus of Nazareth since the beginning.

    moreover,

    Jesus KNEW YHVH’s WORD and his own glory that was within that word, and Jesus KNEW that word of his glory was for him from YHVH since the beginning. 

    October 19, 2020 at 6:48 am#866905
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Right on!

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

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