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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • May 4, 2020 at 9:48 am#863674
    Ed J
    Participant

    I hear a lot of people saying “YA HOO AH” these days. I usually say “Jehovah” or “Yahweh”.

    Hi Mike,

    Since sheva cholam & kamatz are the three vowel pronunciations to God’s name, God’s name…

    YHVH becomes YeHoVaH

    Watch all three videos when you get time. The proof is there

    May 5, 2020 at 4:21 am#863683
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike and All,

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: 68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. 70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them,Ye say that I am. 

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our ONE GOD THE FATHER before the world began promised eternal life, that promise declared by our God in His word from the beginning is the promise of His Spirit causing us to walk in all His ways, as by such there is no sin and thus no death.

    The Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand Jesus the son of David, was a firstborn HEIR to this PROMISE.

    All things that our ALL KNOWING Father created by Himself, ALONE, He did by reason of and for this HEIR (a HUMAN receiving THE PROMISED Holy Spirit given forever more) where God also predestined JOINT HEIRS to be glorified together with him. 

    Our ALL KNOWING Father PURPOSED IT and said He would do it, He declared this END from the beginning. 

    So many of you are denying the END that is directly given to you, HUMANS living in the image of God on earth for all eternity, and you are denying that this was God’s word from the beginning. As you deny, you go about grossly misinterpreting scripture and make FALSE IMAGES out of our ONE GOD THE FATHER and OUR MESSIAH. 

    May 5, 2020 at 8:36 am#863689
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:It’s not so much a matter of WHEN, but the fact that the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.  Who is greater… the one who sends or the one who was sent?  Who is greater… the one who gives or the one who receives?  Notice that Jesus doesn’t ever give his own God any power or authority, right?  So if one is greater, then it stands to reason that the other is lesser.  And that is the situation in a nutshell.  The Father is greater than his son/servant/priest/messiah/prophet/lamb/word/angel Jesus.  The Father is the Highest God OF gods.  Jesus is one of the lesser gods his Father is the God OF.

    Again, Mike, the above is a FULL CORRUPTED CARNAL REASONING, considering the fact that you are attributing your MERE FUTILE conclusions to

    God, and His tasks, and also the fact that for you GODS’ UNFATHOMABLE ATTRIBUTES ARE simply

    MERE SITUATIONS IN A NUTSHELL!!

    YOU: but the fact that the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.

     Mike  THE ABOVE is your WISDOM in a NUTSHELL IN ITS ENTIRE SENSE: Now lets be clear about WHAT YOU CALL

    THE FATHER GAVE SO MANY THINGS TO HIS SERVANT JESUS:

    ACCORDING TO YOU THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!

    John 16:15 All things

    whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that

    he shall RECEIVE of me……

    WHO GAVE MIKE?  

    JESUS!

    WHO RECEIVED ALL THINGS MIKE?

    THE FATHER!

    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.

    Matthew 28:18 ….ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth.

    THE FATHER IS DOING WHAT MIKE? I TELL YOU:

    Matthew 22:44 The Lord said to my Lord: Sit on my right hand,

    ( IT’S MY TURN TO SERVE YOU AND)

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool? 

    YOU REMAIN IN FULL POWER)

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: Notice that Jesus doesn’t ever give his own God

    ANY power or authority, right?

    John 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh

    WHOM I WILL( AUTHORIZE and EMPOWER TO )   SEND  (HIM)

    from the Father,

    the Spirit of truth,

    who PROCEEDETH  from

    the Father,

    he shall (SERVE ME AND) give testimony ( AFFIRMATION)

    OF ME.

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: Who is greater… the one who gives or the one who receives?

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God,

    MIKE IN THE ABOVE 

    JESUS GAVE AN IMAGE TO THE INVISIBLE GOD! 

    WHO GAVE MIKE?

    JESUS!

    WHO RECEIVED MIKE?

    GOD!

    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    that is the situation in a nutshell. MIKE!

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

     

    more to follow!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    May 5, 2020 at 9:48 am#863692
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Continue:

    First this:

    Theology / By [email protected]

    In the world they would enter with multiple pagans gods and goddesses, the Israelites must realize that the creation story of their Bible states that only one God made the heavens and the earth, and that God is a singular God. Although there are clear indications in the OT of the three Persons of the Godhead (Genesis 1:1-2 is a good illustration of that), it is not until the NT and the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, that this is made clear. And this clarity is stated with tremendous gravity in John 10:30.

    Loads Of Truth In One Claim

    Notice what Jesus said;

    “I and the Father are one.” 

    Does that sound familiar? Jesus is not simply stating that He and the Father are of the same essence, although that is true. Jesus is not simply stating that He is God, although that is true.

    The reason the Jews wanted to stone Him on the spot and the reason why the Jews were so offended is simple:

    Jesus said that

    He is as much

    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4 as YHWH is

    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    The verb Jesus uses in John 10:30 indicates that the same condition of the one is true of the other. In other words,

    “I am one, and the Father is one.”

    Jesus is claiming to be the very God of Deuteronomy 6:4! It is no wonder the Jews were so incensed at Him!

    How Do We Know This Is True?

    Look at their reasoning for picking up stones to stone Him in v. 33: “The Jews answered Him,

    “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy;

    and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

    The Greek here literally says: “…concerning a good work we do not stone you, but concerning blasphemy, even that you being a man make yourself God.”

    See, they understood that the foundational element in the theology of the Jews is the singular nature of God and that rock-bed of truth is found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and supported over the next thousand years of OT canonical writing; One God, alone, designed and created all that exists.

    Jesus is now claiming to be that very God.

    The Jews understood that. That unthinkable claim (if it were not true), that a Man would be the God of the OT, is the blasphemies of all blasphemies and is

    the very reason they began looking at the ground for stones to throw at Him (John 10:31).

    Again, these Jews understood very clearly what Jesus was claiming.

    He was claiming absolute solidarity, unity, and perfection with the God of the Mosaic sermon of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    If it was not true,

    Jesus Christ would indeed be the most insane man ever to have walked this planet

    John 10:20 …He hath a devil and is mad. Why hear you him?

    Now to refresh your blocked mind, Mike! WITH EVERY RESPECT:

     

    The Equality of Jesus and the Father

    IN A NUTSHELL

    John 5:17-19

    But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

    Philippians 2:5-6

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

    John 1:1-2

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

    John 5:23

    that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 14:8-11

    Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

    John 17:5

    And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    Colossians 2:9

    For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    John 10:30-33

    I and My Father are one.’ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:1

    “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    May 5, 2020 at 10:00 am#863693
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Yet they still called him God’s holy servant, right?

    ME:  WHERE MIKE? WHICH SCRIPTURE?

    Produce

    the actual scripture

    Here’s mine:

    Acts 4:24 Who having heard it, with one accord lifted up their voice to God and said:

    Lord, thou art he that didst make heaven and earth, the sea and all things that are

    in them.

    25Who, by the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of our father David, thy servant, hast said: Why did the Gentiles rage: and the people meditate vain things?

    26The kings of the earth stood up: and the princes assembled together against the Lord and his Christ.

    27For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, 28To do what thy hand and thy counsel decreed to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants that with all confidence they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thy hand to cures and signs and wonders, to be done by the name of thy holy Son, Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was moved wherein they were assembled: and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they spoke the word of God with confidence.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    May 6, 2020 at 5:45 am#863723
    Jodi
    Participant

     

    formatting is not working I will have to try something else

     

     

     

     

    May 6, 2020 at 6:39 am#863730
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    As you know my stance,

    that God’s word from the beginning was of a man who would inherit God’s glory, and prior to Jesus going to the cross he was asking to receive the glory that was of God that had been given to him before the world even began. I believe that glory is eternal life, and when there is eternal life that means that God’s Spirit in fullness is promised to dwell in you forever more. His glory also is that which comes with him being a firstborn heir, with him being made a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    I would like to know what is the glory that you believe Jesus had, that you believe he received back? Sorry if you have mentioned this and I have missed it.

     

    May 6, 2020 at 9:49 am#863734
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    The prayer mentions the creation, right?

    1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    Yes, Mike, the prayer mentions the creation.

    1. Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    2. Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity (to whom they prayed) that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as the “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.

    Can we move on now?

    LU

     

     

    May 6, 2020 at 10:22 am#863736
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    My point was that the Father does things without needing the power/authority/company/assistance of the Son.  Some of those things the Father does without the Son are for the benefit of the Son, sure.  But that’s not the story you’re painting here.  You’re trying to imply that the Father NEEDS the Son in order to do stuff – as if they are co-equal Gods who ALWAYS work hand in hand on every single thing.  No.  The Father can do ALL things completely by Himself – even if He hadn’t created Jesus as the first of His works.

    Jesus, on the other hand, can do NOTHING without the power/authority GIVEN to him BY his and our God, Jehovah.

    Can you find scriptural fault with anything I said here… especially the emboldened part?

    I say: Jesus wasn’t created so you are wrong there.

    Luke 10:22″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

    According to that verse, the revelation of the Father is given or not given depending whether the Son wills to reveal the Father. The Father’s revelation to mankind is dependent on the will of the Son. Therefore, the Father depends on the will of the Son in that case. Clearly the Father needs Jesus in order to be revealed.

    John 5:20

    “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

    In that verse, if the Son did not exist, the Father couldn’t show him what He is doing. As the verse tells us, the Son has been there from the first work since He has seen all the Father does.

     

     

    May 6, 2020 at 2:06 pm#863741
    Jodi
    Participant

    Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

    Thanks,   Jodi

    May 6, 2020 at 2:41 pm#863742
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Here Jodi,

    https://answeringislam.org/Shamoun/badawi_jesus_preexistence.htm

    May 7, 2020 at 5:02 am#863761
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    I did not find the answer to my question in that writing. If I missed the answer, please cut it out and paste it in a post. All I saw was the same that is given on this forum where people take passages out of context and don’t apply other passages.

    I asked people to explain how Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed but then people say he is God’s Son because of his virgin birth where his parents are Mary and God. Where does the already pre-existing son come into play in the second scenario?

     

    May 7, 2020 at 6:02 am#863763
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    For the sake of argument, let’s say you believe that the eternal God, in order to create and relate to creation, needed to become able to be present in heaven on the throne as well as be able to leave heaven and the throne and be visually present in a place other than heaven. In order for Him to be able to be present in two dimensions, He had a son who would have His nature and attributes. Hence, the eternal God takes from Himself and goes through the process of asexual reproduction in order to accomplish this which brings forth the only begotten Son. Now, being present in two places at once is possible through the Son being able to go and do their united purpose within creation. In the OT, God is seen and heard in the person of the Son not the person of the Father because He is in heaven on the throne and remains unseen by created things on earth.

    So that shows you how the Son can be a literal biological son of God before time begins.

    Regarding the way that the pre-existent Son can be a son of God in Mary is this; God took the already existing Son and brought Him forth into the womb of Mary through the work of the Spirit of God, empowering her to conceive without a man and thus Jesus is the son of God, according to the flesh,  and not a son of Joseph (except legally by being the husband of Mary).

    The only begotten Son of God is the Son of God in three ways, initially before time as the only begotten son to come out of the Father, next as coming out of Mary in order to become flesh, and finally as coming out of the grave.

    I don’t know if that helps you understand my view at least.

    LU

    May 7, 2020 at 10:58 am#863769
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father.

    So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

     

    Jodi, first of all, IGNOR COMPLETELY YOUR HUMAN MENTALITY, AND PERCEPTIONS REGARDING GOD:

    God and His tasks are

    inscrutable, enigmatic, unfathomable, and all the rest!

    Read:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

     

    Isaiah 6:3And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy,

     the Lord God of hosts,

    all the earth is full of his glory,

    Colossians 1:16 For in him were ALL THINGS created… 

    17….by him ALL THINGS  consist.

    Colossians 1:19…that ALL FULNESS should dwell:

    Isaiah6:55 And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace;

    because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips,

    and I have seen with my eyes

    the King the Lord of hosts. (JESUS CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AS MAN IN FLESH)

    John3:13 And no man (IN FLESH)

    hath ascended into heaven,

     but he that descended

    (IN FLESH) from heaven,

    the Son of man (JESUS PRE-EXISTED IN FLESH) who is in heaven

    John6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man (JESUS IN FLESH) ascend up

    where he was (IN FLESH)  before?

     

    Genesis 18 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent,

    in the very heat of the day.

    2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near to him: and as soon as he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground.

    3And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 

    Genesis 22:8  And Abraham said:

    God will provide

    himself    (in Jesus)

    a victim for an holocaust,

    my son. (Jesus, embodied in Isaac, THE BEGINNING of the eternal covenant)

    So they went on together.

     THE FATHER and THE SON TO THE CROSS!

    Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad.

     

    Luke 9:29 And whilst he prayed,

    the shape of his countenance was altered

    and his raiment became white and glittering.

     35And a voice came out of the cloud; saying:

    This is my beloved son. Hear him.

    Jesus in the above manifested his pre-existence.

     

    Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    May 7, 2020 at 11:47 am#863771
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Thank you, that was a clear explanation to that which you believe.

    May 7, 2020 at 12:40 pm#863772
    Lightenup
    Participant

    You’re welcome Jodi, I’m glad it was clear.

    May 11, 2020 at 11:12 am#863846
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Unless you go to Spain Mike,

    YOU WILL NEVER BE CHILLING!

    Um… okay.  But now address the actual POINT I made…

    I will be in location X in one year from today.  It is my wish that (in one year from today) you also be where I AM.

    Do you understand that Jesus’ wording works PERFECTLY for asking his God for his disciples to be where HE IS (when he is returned to heaven with his original glory restored)?  Do you further understand that Jesus would never pray to his God for his disciples to be where he was on earth at that current time – since his disciples ALREADY WERE where he was on earth at that current time?

    Carmel: Read hereunder:

    that they may see my glory which
    thou hast given me,  
    In the above Jesus already had this particular glory!  SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT! 

    No, it is the same glory from verse 5.  Maybe I can walk you through this…

    1.  God created His firstborn Son before the world began.
    2.  God’s firstborn Son was given (past tense) a bunch of glory and dwelled alongside his and our God.
    3.  Jesus emptied himself and was made as a human being, no longer having the original glory that he used to have in heaven.
    4.  John 17:5 is Jesus praying to his and our God to be taken back to heaven, and to have that original “heaven glory” restored to him.
    5.  John 17:24 is Jesus (still praying to his and our God) expressing his wish for his apostles to also be where he is (in heaven with his original glory restored) at that time, so they too can see this original “heaven glory”.
    6.  Jesus rightly calls this glory something that God HAS given him, because God HAD already given it to him before the world began… which brings us right back to #2.

    Get it?  God GAVE him the glory.  Jesus EMPTIED himself of the glory.  Jesus asks to be RETURNED to the glory that he had been previously GIVEN (past tense), but no longer possessed on earth.

    Carmel, if you are unable to understand this very simple matter, then I’m not sure I can help you with more complicated matters.

     

    May 12, 2020 at 4:06 am#863859
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..There is not one scripture that says Jesus “prexisted” his actual existence on this earth, there is not I NE scripture that shows “any” activity, of him pryor to his birth on this earth. We have “only” prophesy concerning he fore told birth, in our scriptures, all the rest is simply conjectures, without statement of “FACT “, IN OUR SCRIPTURES.

    The “Golry” Jesus had with the Father before the world began, was a “prophesied glory”, afforded him befor he ever existed.  KING DARIUS, had that also 200 years befor his birth on this earth , even his name was prophesied, and all the power and Glory he was to recieve.  So why isn’t he also  worshiped as a , “prexisting ” being to.  The whole concept of a preexisting Jesus  is the result of  forcing our text to say what in fact it does not say.  

    Dose anyone think that,  a Glory Jesus had, would be anything like the Glory he “now has”.  No past Glory could even remotely compare to the Glory he “he now has”.  Even that should be enough to prove Jesus was not talking about any kind of  actual past Glory, but a prophesied Glory he was to recieve  later. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    May 12, 2020 at 6:06 am#863861
    Ed J
    Participant

    You’re in denial Gene

    May 12, 2020 at 8:31 am#863863
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.(John 8:58)

     

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