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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 20,361 through 20,380 (of 25,943 total)
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  • April 29, 2020 at 8:22 pm#863508
    carmel
    Participant

    Lightenup,

    YOU: Does this sound like anyone here?

    Saint Ignatius of Antioch: The Epistles, page 141

    If any one says there is one God, and also confesses Christ Jesus, but thinks the Lord to be a mere man, and not the only-begotten [931] God, and Wisdom, and the Word of God, and deems Him to consist merely of a soul and body, such a one

    is a serpent, that preaches deceit and error for the destruction of men.

    AMEN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 30, 2020 at 12:48 am#863512
    Ed J
    Participant

    Mary Human / God not Human
    50% Human / 50% God
    …at Jesus birth

    April 30, 2020 at 1:03 am#863514
    Ed J
    Participant

    Carmel: Yes Mike, Jesus is THE ACTUAL LITERAL WORD SPOKEN OF GOD

    No he’s not. But if he was, then your doctrine is in trouble. How can a single word someone spoke be greater than the one who spoke that word? How does the speaker become the servant of a word that he spoke? And what of all the other words that speaker spoke in his lifetime? Did all of those words also become living entities that the speaker now has to serve? You are a very confused person, Carmel. Keep your posts small and to the point, and I’m happy to go through these odd beliefs you have to see if we can figure out where the problem lies. Cheers.

    Hi Mike,

    Here is the link. Looking forward to a discussion with you on this

    What does Hebrews 11:3 teach us?

    April 30, 2020 at 3:08 am#863529
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….MERE MAN? , DO you mean mankind, who GOD gives Glory and Honor, and has put under his feet “all” the works of his hand?  My what low appionions you people have for GOD greatest creation, even saying  we are created in his ‘image”, so you must have a low application for his work also, interesting.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    April 30, 2020 at 5:09 am#863534
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    I believe the author of that quote is comparing what he knows is true to what you believe and what a huge difference there is between One who is the Only Begotten God who became a man to a man that didn’t pre-exist as the Only Begotten God.

    April 30, 2020 at 8:11 am#863536
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Can you agree that Isaiah 61 is God’s word made true in the flesh?

    Here it comes again, Jodi:

    When Isaiah spoke those words 

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT, WAS

    ALREADY WITH THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND

    ALREADY ANOINTED!

    Isaiah 61:The spirit of the Lord

    is upon me, SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE!  Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

     

    because the Lord

    hath anointed me, PERFECT PRESENT TENSE! Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

    he hath sent me,  PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

    to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up.

     

    YOU: Can you agree that Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself?

    ME: CAN YOU AGREE THAT THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING ALL OF HIMSELF?

    UNLESS YOU ACCEPT :

    JOHN 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD,………AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

    Confirmed in 1 Corinthians 11:3 …..the head of Christ is God

    CAN YOUR HEAD  LIVE WITHOUT YOUR BODY OR YOUR BODY WITHOUT YOUR HEAD? , Jodi , 

    ALSO GOD THE FATHER WITHOUT JESUS, OR JESUS WITHOUT THE FATHER!

    YOU: Can you agree that it is by the Spirit upon him that he is sent out to set us at liberty?

    ME: CAN YOU AGREE THAT IT IS BY THE SPIRIT UPON HIM,

    IN THE BEGINNING,

    THAT HE WAS SENT OUT TO SET US AT LIBERTY?

    YOU: It just so happens that this Anointed Jesus at his anointing at the river Jordan God declares him to be His Son, and it just so happens that it is this Anointed Jesus who is said to BE God’s Son, and it just so happens that this is WHEN we see Jesus being SENT.

    ME: PURE LIES!

    Jesus was NOT ANOINTED AT THE RIVER JORDAN, 

    JESUS WAS BAPTIZED FOR OUR SAKE, AND BY HIS BAPTISM

     OFFICIALLY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WAS BAPTIZED

    ALL IN HIM

    ALL BY HIM

    ALL FOR HIM

    AND  FURNISHED FOR HIMSELF MANY BRETHREN!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON/CHILDREN OF GOD, BORN OF GOD!

    THE FACT THAT GOD CALLED HIM 

    THIS IS MY SON, Simply as 

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE BECAME CHILDREN OF GOD IN RELATION TO THEIR 

    SOULS,  SPIRITS, AS GOD THE FATHER IS!

    THE WATER/SOULS  and THE HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT represent the unification of the SOULS AND THE SPIRIT, manifested immediately in the first MIRACLE at the Cana wedding, THE WATER/SOULS, into WINE/SPIRIT.

    Mary said to Jesus THEY HAVE NO WINE/ SPIRIT, simply as Jesus on His Baptism,

    REMOVED SATAN FROM HUMANITY EMBODIED IN HIM, AND FULFILLED 

    ALL JUSTICE!

    Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son:

    that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren. 

     

    EVERY TIME A PERSON IS BAPTISED IN JESUS’ NAME,

    JESUS BECOME ANOTHER FIRSTBORN AS A CHRISTIAN!

    BORN IN THE WATER AND THE HOLY GHOST,

    IN THAT PERSON!

    John3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless

    A MAN (JESUS) be born again

    of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    CAN YOU SEE THE ABOVE TRUTH Jodi? Here it is: I REPEAT:

    EVERY TIME A HUMAN  IS BAPTIZED AND BECOME A CHRISTIAN,

    JESUS IN HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, 

    originally slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev..13:8 ALREADY ANOINTED, AND WITH THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, 

    IS BAPTIZED AGAIN, BORN AGAIN!

    JESUS OFFICIALLY LIVES AGAIN IN THAT PERSON BAPTIZED! otherwise

    He remains SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…. IN THAT PERSON!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    May 1, 2020 at 1:23 am#863544
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CARMEL…….as I said…..you people do not believe in th ANOINTING SPIRIT, being given to “the flesh” man Jesus. After he was baptized by John at the Jordan river.  That is exactly JOHNS POINT, when he coined the term “ANTI-CHRISTO’S ” or those against the anointing of the flesh man Jesus. You as well as others here fit perfectly into the category of ANTI-CHRISTO’S,  your own words in the above post prove it. And why don’t you believe it?, because you do not,  and can not see Jesus as a “flesh man” as a human being exactly as we are,  only without sin. 

    Jesus still is shown as a “LAMB OF GOD SLAIN” , need proof?,  Rev 5:6, Rev 5:12, Rev 13:8  clearly shows us that. Rev 13:8 shows us also it was in GOD THE Father’s Plan from the very foundation of the world.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    May 1, 2020 at 11:07 am#863562
    Jodi
    Participant

    Gene is exactly right, you all preach anti-christos.

    You deny that which was declared in the beginning concerning a man, then you deny those prophecies concerning him as made true in the flesh, and then you deny the END.

    You have a man sitting on a throne according to the flesh who is a first begotten Son of God of many Sons. We are joint heirs of God’s Spirit with Jesus, where God becomes ALL IN ALL.

    If YHWH promised to give all that which He had made to a man, then it should be obvious that all that He made would have been by reason of and FOR him. 

    TRUTH: Jesus was the Son of Man who received the Spirit, an Anointing, for the purpose to be sent out to set us at liberty.

    FAKE NEWS: Jesus is God who needed to come down to earth and be a man to set us at liberty.

     

    May 1, 2020 at 10:02 pm#863573
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    There is no “W” sound in Hebrew.
    God’s name is YHVH pronounced:

    YeHoVaH

    May 2, 2020 at 4:57 am#863584
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    Seems that scholars disagree on whether it’s YHWH or YHVH, and others who research say they don’t know which one is correct between the two. Some also believe the proper is YHUH. Recently I have been using YHWH though in the past I have used YHVH.

    Please share what info you have, it would be much appreciated.

    I was just reading a few articles myself, and think I might just start using Yah.

     

    May 2, 2020 at 8:13 am#863594
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    There is no “W” sound in Hebrew.
    God’s name is YHVH pronounced:

    YeHoVaH

    Hi Ed J,

    Seems that scholars disagree on whether it’s YHWH or YHVH, and others who research say they don’t know which one is correct between the two. Some also believe the proper is YHUH. Recently I have been using YHWH though in the past I have used YHVH.

    Please share what info you have, it would be much appreciated.

    Hi Jodi,

    OK, watch this video:

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    May 2, 2020 at 8:36 am#863595
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi, here’s another one:

    sheva cholam kamatz

    May 2, 2020 at 12:28 pm#863598
    Ed J
    Participant

    Here is another one:

    May 3, 2020 at 5:26 am#863627
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  i do not agree that the Son had nothing to do with some of the things the Father did while Jesus was on earth. If the Father didn’t do something through the active participation of the Son, it was done for the Son’s benefit in some way.  The angel sent to Mary was because of the Son, btw. The angel sent to Zachariah was because of His Son, btw.

    My point was that the Father does things without needing the power/authority/company/assistance of the Son.  Some of those things the Father does without the Son are for the benefit of the Son, sure.  But that’s not the story you’re painting here.  You’re trying to imply that the Father NEEDS the Son in order to do stuff – as if they are co-equal Gods who ALWAYS work hand in hand on every single thing.  No.  The Father can do ALL things completely by Himself – even if He hadn’t created Jesus as the first of His works.

    Jesus, on the other hand, can do NOTHING without the power/authority GIVEN to him BY his and our God, Jehovah.

    Can you find scriptural fault with anything I said here… especially the emboldened part?

    May 3, 2020 at 5:33 am#863628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Do you realize that you can do nothing apart from the Son? You can’t even exist apart from the Son, not even for a second.

    That’s the same as saying I can currently do nothing apart from Satan.  Since Satan (and Jesus) exist, I can’t possibly do a single thing without them – since they are part of my existence.  But God could take the life away from Satan, and I could still do things.  God could take away the life He gave to Jesus, and I could still do things.  And I exist through Jesus because my and Jesus’ Creator CHOSE to do things that way.  God could have just as easily made me even if He didn’t choose to make Jesus first, and then make all other things through Jesus.  You’re trying to play a semantics game here, but I’m very good at semantics games.

    Kathi, Jesus and his God are not equals.  Jesus is the servant of his and our God, Jehovah.  We aspire to be spiritual BROTHERS/SISTERS to Jesus, and SONS/DAUGHTERS to God.  Not brothers to God and sons to Jesus.  Do you understand the difference?

     

    May 3, 2020 at 5:41 am#863629
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I’m not saying that currently the Father and the Son share one single mind. Like the cell theory, both cells are full and complete and while distinct with their own minds, they each have a different perspective as they know all things.

    You’re describing an original ONE mind that became TWO completely different minds.  As if an even greater mind split in two and became the Father and the Son. As if the Father (and His MIND) have a beginning.  Your cell analogy doesn’t work.  Not even close.  We should probably just stick to scriptures, and leave the fanciful speculation and imagination out of it.

     

    May 3, 2020 at 5:49 am#863630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I’m posting all of this so you can point me to the place where you addressed my question…

    Mike: Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF“ the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

     

    Kathi:  This prayer identifies Jesus as the Messiah that the Jews just rejected and killed fulfilling the prophecy of the stone that was rejected. The rulers and leaders of the Jews saw a man healed in Jesus name and were furious because it made them out to be the stupid ones that the prophecy is portraying about the builders who rejected the stone and about the rulers taking a stand against the Messiah in the prophecy given through David. Because of their pride, they did not want to accept that they could be the stupid ones, so they rejected the idea that Jesus could be the Messiah. They forbid anyone to use the name of Jesus ever again but as you see in the prayer, the name was used boldly among the believers. It was an important moment when the believing Jews went against the authority of the ruling Jews and boldly proclaimed the name of Jesus inspite of their command.

    The context is not about how or through whom creation took place but every bit about recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah and the power of his name that the rulers are rejecting.

    Learning who the Messiah was and is, has been a process that develops as the Spirit releases more and more clarity. Perfect understanding of who and what the Messiah is did not just plop into the early Christian’s minds when they saw the risen savior, Mike. Similar to the cell analogy, clarity comes through seeking and wrestling with what we are given and seeking first the kingdom of God will draw us closer to the truth about all things related to God. Until we get to heaven, our “clarity” is going to be cloudy to some degree. Some people will see more clearer than others about one aspect and some people will see more clearly about another aspect.

    Questions are good. Keep asking with an open heart for understanding.

    The prayer mentions the creation, right?

    1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?  (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    May 3, 2020 at 5:53 am#863631
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Good post. We see Jesus as subordinate to God the Father, and that is correct,  backed up by many scriptures and even the words of Jesus himself as you have quoted, Jodie and I have also. They spin off what is actually written and create their own teachings without true scripture support.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    May 3, 2020 at 6:26 am#863634
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Would you say that the below statements are true,

    You can have an inheritance but not actually have yet that which you are to inherit from the inheritance.

    Sometimes to receive that which you are to inherit from the inheritance that has been given to you, you must fulfill certain criteria first.

    When you believe you are at the near point of reaching that criteria you may find yourself giving acknowledgement to the person who gave you the inheritance and telling them that it’s near time that you receive it.

    No.  I wouldn’t say that any of them are true.  The second one illustrates the problem quite well, since you use the future tense “are to inherit” in conjunction with the past tense “has been given to you”.  It’s the same with the third… “the person who GAVE” (past tense) versus “it’s near [the] time that you [will] receive it” (future tense).

    Now, if you’re talking about a PROMISE of something that you will someday inherit, you already have that promise (Grandma has promised to give you her valuable diamonds when you turn 30).  So you would not say to Grandma, “Please give to me now that PROMISE” – since the promise has already been given to you.

    If you are talking about the actual GOODS that have been promised, you would never speak of them as something you already HAD a long time ago. (“Grandma, please give me now the diamonds that I had 5 years ago.”)

    Now let me ask YOU a question…

    What would be the most rational and straight-forward understanding of the following sentence?

    “John, please give to me now the money I had in your safe before I moved out.”

    Would it be rational to conclude that the speaker was asking for the RETURN of something he previously HAD?  I’m sure you’d agree that is the only rational way to understand the statement.  Can you also agree that John 17:5 – taken at face value as if it was the only sentence in the entire Bible – would convey one person asking another person for the RETURN of something he previously HAD?

    May 3, 2020 at 6:34 am#863635
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…..Good post. We see Jesus as subordinate to God the Father, and that is correct,  backed up by many scriptures and even the words of Jesus himself as you have quoted, Jodie and I have also. They spin off what is actually written and create their own teachings without true scripture support.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    Thanks brother Balthrop. 😊

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