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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 26, 2020 at 9:34 am#863399
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: So then you agree that the Father has power to do anything He wants, with or without the Son… while the Son has only the power and authority given to him by his and our God, Jehovah, right?

    The Father and the Son have power to do anything they want and are never without the other.

    April 26, 2020 at 9:42 am#863400
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction. In the Father, the one mind has the wisdom from the Father’s perspective. In the Son, the one mind has the wisdom from the Son’s perspective. Both the Father and the Son know all things according to their own unique perspective. The Father does not know what it is like to be an only begotten son and the Son does not know what it is like to be his Father, as I understand it.

    April 26, 2020 at 9:45 am#863401
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: Kathi, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4? What is his name?

    Whatever I told you back then still stands. The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    April 26, 2020 at 10:21 am#863404
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    So although the scripture itself has the living entity Jesus of Nazareth asking for the return of glory “I kept on having…before the world began“, you and Gene think that wording can reasonably mean, “please give me the glory that you’ve had planned for me since before I, or the world itself, was created“?

    Please confirm for me that you think “the glory I had” is a phrase someone would say to convey “the glory you’ve had planned for me“, and we can move on from John 17:5

    ME: You say, “asking for the RETURN of glory” I don’t see that in the text that it is a return to glory.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I had (Echo/have) with (Para/ from or of) thee before the world was.

    5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I have of thee before the world was.

    Mike please consider what Jesus says later in this chapter speaking of glory how it is our same glory.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    Jesus says he has it already and that he likewise gave it to others already. He doesn’t actually “have it” yet, what he does “have” is the promise of it. Likewise those that are his don’t actually “have” it yet, what they have is the promise of it.

    What Jesus had at that moment and what we had at that moment was God’s promise that He made before the world began, eternal life.

    Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

     

     

    April 26, 2020 at 1:31 pm#863410
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi said: Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

    Jodi would not have the opportunity to ask God for glory of any kind before the world was because she wouldn’t have even existed with or without glory apart from the Son’s existence. If not for the Son none of us would be here longing for glory of any kind.

    April 27, 2020 at 3:26 am#863421
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The Father and the Son have power to do anything they want and are never without the other.

    The difference being that the Son’s power was given to him by the Father, right?  So while the Father has the power to do anything He wants, Jesus has the exact amount of power and authority that his and our God, Jehovah, has given him… which is the same case for you, me, Satan, Pontius Pilate, or anyone else.  As for the “never without each other”, the same could be said about Michael, Gabriel, Satan, the souls under the alter in Revelation, or even faithful living human servants of Jehovah.

    April 27, 2020 at 3:49 am#863422
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction.

    What the heck does that even mean? 🤔  Are you saying that the Father and Son CURRENTLY share one single mind, and that this one mind contains a Son perspective and a Father perspective?  Curiouser and curiouser.

    LU:  The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    But it’s clear that you’re making your cell theory up as you go!  How can you say you won’t address actual scriptures until I understand a theory that you keep tweaking?

    Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF“ the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

    April 27, 2020 at 3:50 am#863423
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: The difference being that the Son’s power was given to him by the Father, right?

    Does “power” mean ability or authority in your use in that question? For instance, in fleshly terms, your son could be every bit as capable to do such and such as you, his father, but without the go ahead from you, he cannot go ahead and do the such and such.

    The Son has all the ability to do such and such, just as the Father does, but if his Father does not give the “go ahead” to do the such and such, the Son does not have the authority to do it although very capable to do it if he did have the authority given to him. The Son is a perfect son, he does nothing apart from the Father. The Father always works through his perfect Son. Whatever God does for you, Mike, both, together with their united spirit, were involved in the doing of it.

    April 27, 2020 at 4:10 am#863424
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Regarding this post:

    LU: The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction.

    Mike: What the heck does that even mean?   Are you saying that the Father and Son CURRENTLY share one single mind, and that this one mind contains a Son perspective and a Father perspective?  Curiouser and curiouser.

    LU:  The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    Mike: But it’s clear that you’re making your cell theory up as you go!  How can you say you won’t address actual scriptures until I understand a theory that you keep tweaking?

    I’m not saying that currently the Father and the Son share one single mind. Like the cell theory, both cells are full and complete and while distinct with their own minds, they each have a different perspective as they know all things. One knows all things from a father’s perspective and the other knows all things from a son’s perspective. Before the asexual reproduction, there was only one perspective and it was neither the perspective of a father or a son.

    For example, you and your son can experience the afternoon of fishing together, just the two of you, in the same boat, but each of you will tell of the experience from his own perspective and there may be differences in how each of you tell the story. That doesn’t imply that one is telling the truth and the other is lying but both could be telling the truth yet the story isn’t exactly the same because of there being two different perspectives.

    As per my cell analogy being one that has been developing, you are exactly right. That is why I brought it here, to sharpen it. Thank you Mike for helping me. You have helped me think through it deeper and deeper. I believe that the analogy will be more and more useful in discussions about God as it is more clearly understood by me as I express it to others.

    God bless, LU

    April 27, 2020 at 4:46 am#863425
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding your post here:

    Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF“ the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

    This prayer identifies Jesus as the Messiah that the Jews just rejected and killed fulfilling the prophecy of the stone that was rejected. The rulers and leaders of the Jews saw a man healed in Jesus name and were furious because it made them out to be the stupid ones that the prophecy is portraying about the builders who rejected the stone and about the rulers taking a stand against the Messiah in the prophecy given through David. Because of their pride, they did not want to accept that they could be the stupid ones, so they rejected the idea that Jesus could be the Messiah. They forbid anyone to use the name of Jesus ever again but as you see in the prayer, the name was used boldly among the believers. It was an important moment when the believing Jews went against the authority of the ruling Jews and boldly proclaimed the name of Jesus inspite of their command.

    The context is not about how or through whom creation took place but every bit about recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah and the power of his name that the rulers are rejecting.

    Learning who the Messiah was and is, has been a process that develops as the Spirit releases more and more clarity. Perfect understanding of who and what the Messiah is did not just plop into the early Christian’s minds when they saw the risen savior, Mike. Similar to the cell analogy, clarity comes through seeking and wrestling with what we are given and seeking first the kingdom of God will draw us closer to the truth about all things related to God. Until we get to heaven, our “clarity” is going to be cloudy to some degree. Some people will see more clearer than others about one aspect and some people will see more clearly about another aspect.

    Questions are good. Keep asking with an open heart for understanding.

    In the name of Jesus, LU

    April 27, 2020 at 4:49 am#863426
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Sorry in advance for the long post…

    Jodi:  You say, “asking for the RETURN of glory” I don’t see that in the text that it is a return to glory.

    I knew it as I was typing that word! 😁  I knew from past discussions on this verse that you would jump on the word “return” – but I left it in anyway.  Great, now we have a diversion that I have to overcome.  Okay… IF Jesus is asking for a glory he himself HAD before the world began – as the text clearly and undeniably indicates – then he is clearly asking for a RETURN of a glory he previously had.  So although the word “return” isn’t in the text, anybody asking to be given something they used to have is asking for that thing to be returned to them.

    Jodi:  …the glory which I had (Echo/have)…

    Rather, echó in the imperfect tense:  “the glory I kept on having…before the world began”.

    Jodi: Mike please consider what Jesus says later in this chapter speaking of glory how it is our same glory.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    Jesus says he has it already and that he likewise gave it to others already.

    No… Jesus had a certain glory from God when he dwelt on earth.  This is the glory spoken of in John 1:14.  This is the glory that Jesus shared with his apostles while he was still on earth.  This is clearly not the glory he was asking God to return him to in his prayer, and we know this from verse 24…

    Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jesus is telling his God that he is anxious for his apostles to also be with him in heaven so they can see his TRUE glory – the glory he had with the Father before the world began and before he was sent into the world to dwell for a short time.  In your scenario, Jesus would be asking that his apostles be able to see a glory that they’d not only already seen, but that they themselves had already been given.

    Jodi:  Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

    No you couldn’t.  Nor would you ever ask God to give you a glory you already had before the world began, because it would be a nonsensical thing for you to ask.  You are only saying that you could do it because your doctrine requires you to.

    Listen Jodi, you are a very intelligent person, and you are able to clearly recognize the mental gymnastics and absurdities Kathi, Carmel, and Berean are forced to promote in order to force God’s holy servant Jesus into BEING part of the very God he serves.  Kathi is also a very intelligent person, and is able to clearly recognize the mental gymnastics you and Gene promote in order to force God’s holy servant Jesus into being nothing but a normal human being like everybody else.  I am an intelligent person who – from my position in the scripturally-supported middle of these two extremes – is able to recognize the mental gymnastics and absurdities both you and Kathi promote.

    No, God wasn’t a “cell” with one mind who split into two cells with one mind that has two different perspectives.  No, you could not ask God to give you a glory you had before the world began.  You could ask God to look favorably on your service to Him on earth, and pray that He reward you with great glory after the resurrection.  But you have no idea how you will be judged, and therefore couldn’t possibly ask to be given something you already had when you don’t know if you’ll get it in the first place.  God knows, but you don’t.  You couldn’t even ask for Him to give you the glory He’s “been holding for you” (as Gene says) – because once again, you don’t know that He has been holding any glory for you.

    Now add to that the fact that you can only make your mental gymnastics argument at all if you choose to translate “para” as the much less common “of” instead of “with” or “alongside”.  What if “with” was the only translation of “para”?  How then would you read John 17:5?  Hopefully you would read it as Jesus asking to be returned to a glory that he once had in the presence of God before the world began.  And then your entire doctrine would fall apart because of one single verse, right?

    So here’s what I’m wondering:  How can you be so certain of a doctrine that could be completely destroyed by simply translating the Greek word “para” as the much more common “with/alongside/in the presence of” instead of your choice, “of”?

    How can you be so certain of a doctrine that could be completely destroyed by simply understanding the words “the glory I HAD before the world began” in the most natural, rational, commonsensical way that those words could be understood?

    But like I said in my last post, if you are insistent upon using “of” and imagining that “the glory I HAD“ somehow refers to a glory the speaker didn’t actually have, then we can move on to one of the many other scriptures that clearly teach of Jesus’ preexistence.

    April 27, 2020 at 5:03 am#863428
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike, mike mike,

    Did you really just write this: No, God wasn’t a “cell” with one mind who split into two cells with one mind that has two different perspectives.

    Didn’t I recently correct you on this. I never said God was a cell. It is an analogy.

    April 27, 2020 at 5:05 am#863429
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Jodi would not have the opportunity to ask God for glory of any kind before the world was because she wouldn’t have even existed with or without glory apart from the Son’s existence. If not for the Son none of us would be here longing for glory of any kind.

    True.  And even with the Son’s existence and sacrifice, nobody in their right mind would ask God to give them glory, but refer to it as a glory they had before the world began.  That’s just mental gymnastics to force a doctrine into the scriptures that isn’t actually there.  If you already have that glory from God’s timeless point of view, then why are you asking God for it? 😉

    April 27, 2020 at 5:40 am#863430
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    Let me tell you that Jesus is divine human

    You teach ERROR  BIG ERROR

     

    April 27, 2020 at 8:08 am#863431
    Berean
    Participant

    There is not a single man (100 percent human)
    who has not sinned and is not deprived of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and who does not fundamentally need the Lord Jesus to hope one day to inherit eternal life.
    This is why a hundred percent human Jesus makes him a person who needs a savior.
    The Bible is formal, salvation came from above through the only begotten Son of God who was made flesh and who dwelt among us full of grace and truth.

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Jesus was in the form of God…. and  He took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men

    FORM OF GOD ……………….FORM OF MAN’S SERVANT

    This is not a Babylonian mystery religion teaching but a part of the pure and simple truth of the eternal Gospel.

    April 27, 2020 at 11:34 am#863436
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Son has all the ability to do such and such, just as the Father does, but if his Father does not give the “go ahead” to do the such and such, the Son does not have the authority to do it although very capable to do it if he did have the authority given to him.

    We agree that Jesus can do nothing that God didn’t authorize him to do.  But Jesus’ power/ability to do this or that also comes from God.  This is why Jesus waits for his and our God to place his enemies at his feet so Jesus can then destroy them.

    LU:  Whatever God does for you, Mike, both, together with their united spirit, were involved in the doing of it.

    Not necessarily.  I agree that God works very closely with His “right hand man” – as do many leaders.  But angels were sent while Jesus was growing in Mary’s womb, right?  Surely Jesus wasn’t involved in the sending of those angels.  God did a lot of things during Jesus’ time on earth that Jesus wasn’t involved with.  And at any given time, God can choose to do anything He wants without the help or company of Jesus.  The same cannot be said for Jesus.  It seems to me that you’re implying that they MUST work together in all things – without actually coming out and saying that.  If so, your implication is misleading… and erroneous.

    April 27, 2020 at 12:22 pm#863437
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

     

    April 27, 2020 at 12:25 pm#863438
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Again Jodi, you simply are MAD about ONLY proclaiming

     JESUS’ HUMANITY, to the extent that

    YOU ARE STRETCHING SCRIPTURES, INVENTING CORRUPTED UNDERSTANDINGS,

    ALTER WHATEVER IT IS  A GENUINE PROOF OF HIS DIVINITY,

    AS LONG AS IT’S  PLEASES YOUR CARNAL MINDED MENTALITY,

    IGNORING THE TRUE MESSAGE,

    IGNORING THAT THE HUMAN RACE  was INDEBTED TO SATAN,

    ONCE ADAM UTILIZED HIS ASSET, SIN, and

    STUBORNLY INSIST TO KEEP ON

    WITH YOUR HEAD BURIED IN THE SAND 

    PROCLAIMING YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF

    EVEN IMITATING THE FATHER OF LIES:

    SATAN, 

    THAT JESUS IS

     A MAN, AUTHENTIC TO ALL OTHER CURSED MEN,

    WHEN SCRIPTURE IS MORE THAN CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS

    MADE IN ALL THINGS

    LIKE  not authentic

    UNTO HIS BRETHREN

    YOU ONLY ACCEPT HIM

    A SON OF ABRAHAM LIKE ALL OTHER SONS OF ABRAHAM

    A SON OF DAVID LIKE ALL OTHER SONS OF DAVID,

    BUT NEVER ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT JESUS 

    IS THE GENUINE SON OF GOD

    THE FATHER’S GENUINE SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3

    NOW TO YOUR LIES:

    YOU: that God promised He would be a Father to and set him up as an eternal king giving him the throne of his father David.

    ME: DIDN’T JESUS HIMSELF  DECLARED THAT

    GOD IS HIS FATHER?

    WHY DO YOU IGNORE THIS PURE TRUTH?

    JUST READ YOUR OWN CONTRADICTION:

    eternal king

    WHO IS ETERNAL JODI?

    ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL!

    Now read please:

    Dictionary.com

    eternal

    adjective

    without beginning or end;
    lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal):eternal life.

    Can a human being of earth be 

    ETERNAL? Since he had A BEGINNING!

    AND IF JESUS IS ETERNAL KING ISN’T IT CLEAR TO YOU THAT JESUS

    NEVER HAD A BEGINNING!

    The fact that He was MYSTERIOUSLY CONCEIVED

    By the ETERNAL source OF THE HOLY GHOST?

    NOT OF A MORTAL MAN OF EARTH?

    BUT A SPIRIT 

    Luke 1:35…. The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and 

    THE POWER of the Most High shall OVERSHADOW thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Jeremiah31:22 ‘….for the Lord hath created a NEW THING  upon the earth:

    A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

     Jodi THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR ASSERTION THAT 

    Joseph’s sperm had nothing to do with Jesus’ conception.

    You: TRUE BELIEVERS BELIEVED that Jesus could do nothing of  himself,

    he did not send himself,

    PURE LIE!

    TRUE BELIEVERS BELIEVE THAT GOD IN THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

    THE FACT THAT GOD SENT

    THE SON, HIMSELF AS MAN TO BE SACRIFICED by which sacrifice

    THE FATHER AND THE SON AS GOD

    IS OUR SAVIOUR!

    GENESIS 22:8 And Abraham said:

    God will provide

    HIMSELF a victim for a holocaust, my son.

    So they went on together.

    GOD THE FATHER and GOD THE SON TOGETHER ON THE CROSS!

    Jodi, you seem incapable of apply scriptures together

    that literally go hand in hand.

    they believed that their God sent them the prophet of HIS WORD from long ago,  they saw Jesus as God’s WORD MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH.  He CAME to them being FROM GOD/thus they saw him as SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

    Now read the truth:

    Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said to them:

    Amen, amen, I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven,

    but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

    In the above we have PHYSICALLY THE MANNA WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN!

    33For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the world.

    IN THE ABOVE WE HAVE JESUS’ ASSERTION THAT

    PHYSICALLY HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN! 

    TWO PHYSICAL PARALLEL EXAMPLES 

    YOURS IS METAPHORICAL!!!!

    IT DOES NOT APPLY!

    34They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.

    OK, Jodi, They understood very clearly that it was 

    PHYSICAL! not according to o your lies!

    35And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

    41The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

    42And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

    How then saith he:

    I came down from heaven Jodi

    OK, Jodi, PHYSICALLY CAME DOWN FOR GOD’S SAKE!

    Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead.

    PHYSICALLY THEY ATE MANNA!

    50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

    PHYSICALLY WE MUST EAT JESUS’FLESH

    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

    and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.

    53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    PHYSICALLY THEY UNDERSTOOD Jodi! 

    STOP IGNORING STUBORNLY THE

    TRUE MESSAGE

    54Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 58As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

    59This is the bread that came down from heaven.

    EMPHATICALLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE CAME DOWN PHYSICALLY!

    Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead.

    PHYSICALLY ATE THE MANNA!

    He that eateth this bread shall live forever.

     JESUS ASSERTED THAT PHYSICALLY WE MUST EAT HIS FLESH AS BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

    YOUR HEAD IS UNDER THE SAND! WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!

    ME: Berean, you totally neglect the fact that Jesus said he could do nothing of himself,

    Jodi YOU TOTALLY NEGLECT THE FACT THAT THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF!

    The scriptures you give where you are trying to say that people were in error because they did not believe that Jesus was God sent from heaven, actually tell you directly that their error was in them

    not believing that the son of Joseph and Mary, the man who was a mere carpenter, was the great prophet spoken in prophecy. 

    NO Jodi go back and read again John 6 above!

    YOU: The people REFUSED Jesus as the PROPHET of God’s word, raised up from among brethren. I DO NOT REFUSE.

    LIES, LIES, and LIES! READ:

    John5:16 Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them:

    My Father worketh until now; and I work.

    18Hereupon, therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

    Ok Jodi THEY REFUSED AND WANTED TO KILL  JESUS BECAUSE JESUS SAID THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER,

    MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD.

    IF HE SAID THAT HE WAS A PROPHET THEY WOULDN’T HAVE REFUSED HIM NEVER MIND KILLED HIM!

     7:29I know him, because I am from him: and he hath sent me.

    30They sought therefore to apprehend him: and no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come. That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

    30I and the Father are one.

    AGAIN Jodi: They tried to apprehend him, but FAILED

    AS THEY HAD NO AUTHORITY OVER HIM! like men of earth.

    JESUS HAD AUTHORITY OVER HIS OWN LIFE.

    HE DIED NOT BECAUSE HE WAS A SINNER LIKE HUMANS ARE, BUT BECAUSE,

    HE WAS A DIVINE BEING, ATTENTION JODI:

    HAS THE POWER TO DIE!

    ANSWER Jodi: DO YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR POWER TO DIE?

    OF COURSE NOT, IN FACT, TO DIE IS THE SIMPLEST THING TO DO.

    NO POWER AT ALL!

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF POWER JESUS HAD?

    NO, YOU WOULDN’T AND YOU COULDN’T EXPLAIN

    HOW CAN A CARNAL MINDED PERSON SEE SUCH 

    SPIRITUAL TASKS? WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    10:31The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

    AGAIN THEY WANTED TO STONE HIM WHY?

    READ ON:

    32Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father.

    AS THE FATHER COULD NOT DO ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF.

    For which of those works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou.

    being a, man, makest thyself God.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL JODI!

    DO NOT TELL MORE LIES PLEASE! THEY REFUSED JESUS BECAUSE

    HE MADE HIMSELF GOD!

     AND HE WAS GOD!

    WHO ON EARTH IN THOSE DAYS  WOULD PROCLAIM SUCH

    PURE TRUTH!

    WHEN THE JEWS  ARE TERRORIZED  TO PRONOUNCE GOD’S MYSTERIOUS NAME!

    34Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are gods? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken: 36Do you say of him

    whom the Father hath sanctified and

    sent into the world:

    Thou blasphemest; because I said:

    I am the Son of God?

    37If I do not the works of my Father, ( AS MY FATHER IS USELESS ON HIS OWN) believe me not. 38But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that

    the Father is in me and I in the Father.

    39They sought therefore to take him: and he escaped out of their hands.

    ANSWER: DID THEY REFUSE AND WANT TO TAKE JESUS AS A PROPHET?

    HOW MANY SCRIPTURES DO YOU WANT TO READ TO ACCEPT?

    THE TRUTH

    YOU: The people REFUSED Jesus as the PROPHET of God’s word, raised up from among brethren. I DO NOT REFUSE.

    Jodi YOU RECEIVE JESUS AS A JUST MAN AND AS PROPHET THEN

    YOUR REWARD WILL ALSO BE LIKEWISE!

    Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and

    he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

    41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and

    he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 27, 2020 at 1:32 pm#863439
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Not necessarily.  I agree that God works very closely with His “right hand man” – as do many leaders.  But angels were sent while Jesus was growing in Mary’s womb, right?  Surely Jesus wasn’t involved in the sending of those angels.  God did a lot of things during Jesus’ time on earth that Jesus wasn’t involved with.  And at any given time, God can choose to do anything He wants without the help or company of Jesus.  The same cannot be said for Jesus.  It seems to me that you’re implying that they MUST work together in all things – without actually coming out and saying that.  If so, your implication is misleading… and erroneous.

    i do not agree that the Son had nothing to do with some of the things the Father did while Jesus was on earth. If the Father didn’t do something through the active participation of the Son, it was done for the Son’s benefit in some way.  The angel sent to Mary was because of the Son, btw. The angel sent to Zachariah was because of His Son, btw. Even Satan was and is allowed to do his evil because the Son destroyed his power and will destroy him. And on and on…

     

    April 27, 2020 at 1:36 pm#863440
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Do you realize that you can do nothing apart from the Son? You can’t even exist apart from the Son, not even for a second.

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