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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 20, 2020 at 10:30 am#863195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: In verses 27 and 30, they identify Jesus – not as the one to whom they prayed or the one who created everything – but instead as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed… the holy servant OF the one who created everything.

    How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?  Same question for Kathi and Berean.

     

    Carmel: Hi Mike,

    me: VERY SIMPLE!

    The Father and the Son ETERNALLY EXISTED TOGETHER.

    Um… that doesn’t even answer my question.  Let’s begin again…

    In the prayer in Acts 4, the apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  Carmel, WHO were they praying to?

    April 20, 2020 at 10:43 am#863196
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi LU and ALL,

    YOU: We start counting the days from the point of birth because we can never be sure when the point of conception was.

    WE are children of Eve, PHYSICALLY SPEAKING.

    Three hours ago I read that we in relation to the egg of the woman, are within our mother,

    ON HER CONCEPTION in her MOTHER.

    SO ON OUR BIRTH, WE HAVE TO ADD THE AGE OF THE MOTHER WHEN SHE WAS CONCEIVED.

    IN MY CASE  I HAVE TO ADD 20 YEARS, WHEN I WAS CONCEIVED IN HER WOMB.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    April 20, 2020 at 11:06 am#863197
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: Um… that doesn’t even answer my question.  Let’s begin again…

    In the prayer in Acts 4, the apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    ME: THROUGH THE SON “THE WORD” Jesus 

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, and ALL FOR HIM

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON/GOD

    Carmel, WHO were they praying to?

    IT IS IRRELEVANT WHOM WERE THEY PRAYING TO

    it is the actual process OF CREATION which

    COUNTS

    Luke 10:22  ALL THINGS

    are delivered to me( UNDER JESUS’ POWER) by my Father.

    WHY MIKE THE FATHER GAVE ALL THINGS TO JESUS?

    OBVIOUS:

    AS HE DIED FOR ALL THINGS, FOR HIS OWN KINGDOM!not THE FATHER!

    WHATEVER GOD THE FATHER CREATED, THROUGH HIS SON

    GOT CORRUPTED,

    THUS THANKS TO HIS SON: 

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev. 13:8 

    HE RESTORED AND PERFECTED ALL BY HIS OWN DEATH, 

    A DEATH WHICH THE FATHER COULD NOT EVEN SMELL!

    BY WHICH DEATH GOD THE FATHER RESTED, and

    THE NEW FATHER OF ALL BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT BECAME 

    PROPRIETOR

    SINCE THE OLD FATHER DELIVERED ALL THINGS TO HIS SON!

    THE NEW FATHER of the new world to come Isaiah 9:6

    now read

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:

    and who the Father is, but the Son and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

    in his presence!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    April 20, 2020 at 11:10 am#863198
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    But wait… according to the scriptures I just posted, the “Jehovah” who is eternal (no origins) is the “Jehovah” who created the whole world. So according to your theory, that couldn’t have been either the Father OR the Son – since you say they both have origins. Kathi, your scenario begins with one God who is eternal, and ends with two Gods – neither of whom are eternal. They’re made of “eternal stuff”, but they themselves aren’t eternal. And your scenario doesn’t allow for them to already be two different persons inside the original “cell” – because the split of the first cell would also split the persons in half. The original would retain half of each person, while the duplicate cell would be comprised of the other half of each of them.

    Okay, so far we know from Isaiah 40 and Psalm 90 that the one identified as “Jehovah” is eternal. And we know from Micah that this eternal “Jehovah” is going to bring someone forth out of Bethlehem who is NOT eternal, but has ancient origins. Who is that one with origins in the ancient past who was eventually brought forth from Bethlehem to rule God’s people?

    Mike, the relationship has origins, not their existence. Look at the picture of the closed mitosis to help. Also, all things were made by the firstborn, therefore the creation that is mentioned in your passages took place after the relationship was established and the Son was begotten since only then would there even be the Son as the Firstborn. Nice try though. Another thing, I am not presenting a division of substance resulting in a half of substance in one and a half of substance in another, nor would it be considered a cloning. Asexual reproduction leads to a father and son complete in substance according to type. See the diagram for that also.

    Later, LU

    April 20, 2020 at 11:14 am#863199
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Maybe you’re joking but in case you are serious, the human mother has within her an eggs that someday will possibly become person/persons. Until it is fertilized, that egg is not a person because persons have 46 chromosomes but an egg only has 23. The egg requires the other 23 chromosomes to come from a sperm. Biology 101 🙂

    April 20, 2020 at 11:16 am#863200
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Carmel, WHO were they praying to?

     

    Carmel: IT IS IRRELEVANT WHOM WERE THEY PRAYING TO

    What?!?  It’s irrelevant who Jesus’ apostles prayed to?  Please answer the question – no matter how “irrelevant” you believe it to be.  Thanks.

    April 20, 2020 at 11:23 am#863201
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike, the relationship has origins, not their existence.

    Okay, let’s go even slower then…  There couldn’t be a “their” in the original cell unless there were already two individual sentient persons.  So is that your claim?

     

    April 20, 2020 at 11:24 am#863202
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

     

    ME: John14:13Because I go to the Father: and

    whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do:….

    In the above Mike Jesus said that

    we PRAY to the Father IN HIS NAME and

    HE

    JESUS DOES ALL FOR US.

    THUS IT’S NOT TO WHOM WE PRAY WHICH COUNTS BUT

    THE ACTUAL PROCESS 

    THE PROCESS WHICH JESUS ESTABLISHED ON HIS DEATH

    THE FRUIT INITIATED IN THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN 

    IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD……….AND THE WOR WAS GOD!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    April 20, 2020 at 12:03 pm#863206
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Okay, let’s go even slower then… There couldn’t be a “their” in the original cell unless there were already two individual sentient persons. So is that your claim?

    The original one had within itself the potential to become both a father and a son, their substance was within the original one before it went through the begetting process.

    April 20, 2020 at 3:47 pm#863209
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8

    You said: And given that other translations translate it simply as ‘lord’, then this is a fail.

    You need to dig a little deeper. We know that many translations translate the name YHWH as LORD but that doesn’t mean He is not Jehovah does it.

    Anyway, you post greek interlinear passages when I posted a translation that is not from a Greek manuscript which does nothing for the conversation. You ought to be looking at the Syriac Peshitta interlinear for the OT and the NT and compare the word translated as the Lord Jehovah in Philippians 2:10 with the word for the Lord Jehovah in the OT in the Syriac Peshitta. You will see the same word which only applies to the tetragrammaton.

    Study this paper on the subject to help you understand: http://aramaicnt.com/files/MarYah%20in%20Peshitta.pdf

    April 20, 2020 at 8:19 pm#863217
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Mike,

    YOU: Carmel: IT IS IRRELEVANT WHOM WERE THEY PRAYING TO

    What?!?  It’s irrelevant who Jesus’ apostles prayed to?  Please answer the question – no matter how “irrelevant” you believe it to be.  Thanks.

    ME:Mike please be honest and produce

    MY WHOLE SENTENCE, NOT ONLY WHAT PLEASES YOU! I SAID:

    IT IS IRRELEVANT WHOM WERE THEY PRAYING TO

    it is the actual process OF CREATION which

    COUNTS

    Now read:

    Acts 4

    24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God

    . “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    Now the above was not sufficient for you in order to make your point THAT GOD IS THE CREATOR! AND CONTINUED AND SAID:

    “you made

    the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    THUS YOU COMMITTED YOURSELF AND SIMPLY PRODUCED

    THE WHOLE  DECLARATION,BUT WITH YOUR CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING YOU 

    IGNORED THE SPIRITUAL HIDDEN UNDERSTANDING

    WHICH IS WHAT JESUS, GOD’S SERVANT CAME TO ESTABLISH ON THIS MORTAL CARNAL PLANET!

    What according to you the above  CREATION WHICH GOD CREATED IS 

    MADE OF?

    IN ONE INSTANT, Mike they prayed to

    THE LORD and also 

    mentioned 

    “THE WORD” Jesus, THE SON OF MAN, GOD’S SERVANT! hidden in the 

    ENTIRE PROCESS MENTIONED BY THE APOSTLES.

    SO IT’S NOT ENOUGH TO MENTION

    JUST

    THE LORD MIKE!

    THE LORD ON HIS OWN MEANS  NOTHING!

    GOD THE FATHER ON HIS OWN MIKE IS 

    ABSOLUTELY 

    USELESS

    now read AGAIN:

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:
    and who the Father is, but the Son and
    to whom the Son will reveal him.
    in his presence!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 21, 2020 at 10:27 am#863221
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: JESUS DOES ALL FOR US

    THUS IT’S NOT TO WHOM WE PRAY WHICH COUNTS BUT THE ACTUAL PROCESS 

    Yes, our and Jesus’ God has certainly given his servant Jesus a ton of power and authority.  But my question still awaits an answer…

    Who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4?

    April 21, 2020 at 10:31 am#863222
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The original one had within itself the potential to become both a father and a son, their substance was within the original one before it went through the begetting process.

    Okay, but I want to know if the original One consisted of two individual entities.  You used the word “their”, which made me think you believe there were two sentient minds in the original One.  Is that what you think?  Or was the original One a single entity/mind?

    April 21, 2020 at 10:40 am#863223
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: GOD THE FATHER ON HIS OWN MIKE IS ABSOLUTELY USELESS

    No.

    Carmel: Mike they prayed to THE LORD…

    Which Lord?  There are tons of them.  Were they praying to Jesus?  He’s a Lord.  Beelzebub?  He’s also a Lord.  Jehovah?  He’s a Lord too.  Which one were they praying to in Acts 4?  What’s his name?

     

    April 21, 2020 at 11:10 am#863226
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Oh who can fathom…from the One mind came both. Jesus is the wisdom of God.

    April 21, 2020 at 3:23 pm#863229
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Jodi,

    You said: Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology…

    I think you need to dig a little deeper than that.

    Again, look at this and you will see that there is sufficient reason to translate the original word in the  as “Lord Jehovah.” I know that it is a direct hit to your doctrine and hard to accept but you would do well to purchase the original text with the interlinear and see that the word translated as “Lord Jehovah” is found throughout the OT and the NT for the tetragrammaton, YHWH.

    http://aramaicnt.com/files/MarYah%20in%20Peshitta.pdf

    ME: I counter that with, 

    https://everlastinggoodnewsofyahweh.info/MarYah.html

     

    April 21, 2020 at 4:05 pm#863230
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Rev 15: 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify THY NAME? for thou ONLY ART HOLY: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    Acts 17: 31 Because HE hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom HE hath ordained; whereof HE hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE hath raised him from the dead.

    Matthew 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Who is “he” that says there is none good but ONE?

    Who is “he” that FEARS YHWH because His Spirit is upon him?

    Who is “he” who judges the world in righteousness and how is it that he is able to judge?

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of YHWH: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    April 21, 2020 at 8:42 pm#863236
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi and Gene

    COLOSSIANS 1: 16b-17  this is about Jesus Christ

     

     … all things were created by him, and for him:

         
      [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

     

     

    April 22, 2020 at 1:33 am#863240
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..YOUR AND OTHERS problem here is not understanding the Greek word “dia” in it’s a true Greek meaning, even though I have posted it here many times, It is ease to just go to Strongs explanation of the word and apply it to the text. YOU will see it should be translated as , “for the purpose of, as a channel or purpose which GOD CREATED ALL THINGS.  Jesus never create anything himself.  He even would not allow people to call him good, as scriptures clearly says, which Jodi has brought out above.

    The problem with you people here is, that you really do not “truly” believe,  what Jesus himself says as truth,  But have chosen to believe in a false JESUS that “mystery religion” has created.

    Remember what Jesus said, ““many will come in my name saying I am christ and DECIEVE “MANY”.  THE Jesus you people are preaching is a false Jesus. 2ths2.  Shows the Jesus you people are preaching. I realize you are not aware of it, and that’s the sad parts, but you are not alone, most  all believe the way you and others here do. That’s the “wide way that leads to destruction”,  but we are told to go through the “narrow”  gate that leads to life. 

    I and Jodi, nor I  believe Mike,  sees Jesus  the way you people see him. If we see Jesus as a God, then we are breaking the First commandment and have become Idolaters.  by believing Jesus is a God.  GOD the Father will never accept  “Idolaters “. IMO  when Jesus said “that they might know you the “ONLY” true God”.  he was not lying LU.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    April 22, 2020 at 2:41 am#863242
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jodi and Gene

    COLOSSIANS 1: 16b-17 this is about Jesus Christ

    … all things were created by him, and for him:[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    ME: Absolutely the verse is about JESUS CHRIST, Jesus is the NAME given to the promised son to come of the seed of David, and this man is Christ-the ANOINTED because at the river Jordan he was CHRIO (to anoint) with the Spirit of YHWH, thus made into the CHRISTOS (anointed), and then our heavenly Father whose NAME is YHWH sent this Jesus the Anointed out into the world to fulfill YHWH’s entire purpose for having created all things in the first place. 

    the word as Gene keeps telling you “by” is DIA meaning through -BY REASON OF

    Our heavenly Father YHWH created all things by reason of and for Jesus the Anointed.

    Berean, you have no clue as to what the BODY of Christ represents, which is YHWH’s Spirit promised to be ALL IN ALL.

    You make Christ into a false image and the message of the Gospel is destroyed. Our hope is to be partakers of the body of Christ, our hope is to be JOINT HEIRS with Christ, which is a body FILLED with the Spirit of YHWH, an heir of YHWH, to where YHWH causes us to walk in all His ways through His Spirit dwelling in us for all eternity. If we are walking in all His ways there is no sin, and where there is no sin there is eternal life.

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