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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 20, 2020 at 4:09 am#863163
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You said: But the life of a human being really begins when he comes out of his mother’s womb … and we start counting his days from there, isn’t it;

    Can a human be born alive from within that has not already existed alive within? If not, then a human being really begins when it is is conceived. We start counting the days from the point of birth because we can never be sure when the point of conception was.

    Good discussion,

    LU

    April 20, 2020 at 4:24 am#863165
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi again Berean,

    You said: And the Son heard these wonderful words from the Father:
    Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, I will be a Father for you, and you will be to me a Son?

    That was told to the Son by the Father on the day of the resurrection, when the Son became the firstborn from the dead. Of course we know he was a son before that.

    See Psalms 2

    6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
    Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

    7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
     He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
                Today I have begotten You.

    8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
    And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

    9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
    You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

    10Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
    Take warning, O judges of the earth.

    11Worship the LORD with reverence
    And rejoice with trembling.

    12Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
    For His wrath may soon be kindled.
    How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

    Bless you,
    LU

    April 20, 2020 at 4:49 am#863168
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..GOOD POST, right on, I like it when you bring out those little points of truth. I completely agree with what you wrote to Berean. I might cause him to begin to think about the actual word as the are said exactly more.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    April 20, 2020 at 5:03 am#863169
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi

    Before Christ came “in the likeness of men”, he existed in the “express image of his Father”.

    Hebrews 1

    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

     

    Christ was “made” so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

     

    In Strong’s concordance, the word translated “being made” is “Ginomai” which means “to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be,” or “to become, be made”.

    And THE WORD” became flesh…

     

    Blessings to all

     

    April 20, 2020 at 5:11 am#863170
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  You say that it has no scriptural support but the term “begotten” supports it, the eternalness of God supports it, the relationship of Father and Son supports it.

    None of those support your idea that God is a cell that divided into two cells.  What about Acts 4?  Which one created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?

    April 20, 2020 at 5:14 am#863171
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…..GOOD POST, right on, I like it when you bring out those little points of truth. I completely agree with what you wrote to Berean. I might cause him to begin to think about the actual word as the are said exactly more.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    Thanks Gene.  👍😊

    April 20, 2020 at 5:30 am#863172
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Context of Hebrews 1 is not resurrection but “the divinity od Christ” and his superiority to the angels…

    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son

    O Lord help us …

     

    Hi Gene

    you

    Mike…..GOOD POST, right on, I like it when you bring out those little points of truth. I completely agree with what you wrote to Berean. I might cause him to begin to think about the actual word as the are said exactly more.

    Me

    Can you give me the post Mike for , Ido not see it

    in addition to that I have problems navigating, the pages do not always open;

     

     

    April 20, 2020 at 5:44 am#863173
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Suffice it to say that you missed the cell analogy point. It was not to say that God is a cell, it was to show what asexual reproduction looks like and how One is expressed as two and the two are together the fullness of the one regarding their substance.

    Now that you “maybe” realize this, build your case as to your claim that the Son didn’t actually go through an asexual begetting process but rather a creation process like the angels where he was the first of anything created, a first of his specific type. Btw,”son” is not a type. “Spirit being” is also not a specific type.

    Hopeful,

    LU

    April 20, 2020 at 6:01 am#863174
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Can you give me the post Mike for , Ido not see it

    in addition to that I have problems navigating, the pages do not always open;

    I think Gene was referring to my post to Carmel, and just got the name wrong.  But I did ask YOU a question in that post to Carmel.  It’s on the previous page.

    April 20, 2020 at 6:01 am#863175
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean,

    The first and last part of Hebrews 1 is not in reference to the Son according to the flesh, that is correct. However, there is a part of Hebrews 1 that is according to the flesh as the Son of David when the Son receives his rule on the eternal throne promised to the son of David. The Son receives his kingdom rule when he was begotten from the grave as the firstborn from the dead. Read this part of Hebrews 1:

    3…When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.      5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
    “YOU ARE MY SON,
    TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
    And again,
    “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
    AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

    and here:

    8But of the Son He says,
    “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
    AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
    THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
    WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

    Romans 1

    1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

    God bless,

    LU

    April 20, 2020 at 6:05 am#863177
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  …build your case as to your claim that the Son didn’t actually go through an asexual begetting process but rather a creation process…

    How many times would you like me to do it? 😉  Okay, here we go again…

    Micah 5:2

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Who is this verse about?  And when did he come into existence?

    April 20, 2020 at 6:08 am#863178
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    That verse in Micah 5:2 does nothing to challenge the origin in regards to relationship of father/son from eternity but enforces it.

    April 20, 2020 at 6:10 am#863179
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Jodi, my previous post is a good one for you too.  Who is this person that God says WILL (future tense) come for Him?  And when DID (past tense) this person originate (come into existence)?

    April 20, 2020 at 6:11 am#863180
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    The Father’s origin began at the same moment the Son’s origin began. Their substance eternally existed before the One became a father and a son.

    April 20, 2020 at 6:12 am#863181
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Micah 5:2 does nothing to challenge the origin in regards to relationship of father/son from eternity but enforces it.

    But you say Jesus didn’t have an origin, don’t you?  Micah 5:2 says he did.  Please reconcile.

    April 20, 2020 at 6:27 am#863182
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The Father’s origin began at the same moment the Son’s origin began. Their substance eternally existed before the One became a father and a son.

    Micah 5:2 is the continuation of a segment of a speech from Jehovah that begins in 4:6.  So basically…

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah”, declares Jehovah, “though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    It is Jehovah who is saying all of these words.  Is it your contention that Jehovah had his origins in the ancient past?

     

     

    April 20, 2020 at 7:12 am#863183
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    I appreciate the discussion. I am intending on sticking with you till you see what I am trying to say because I believe it is really important and worthy the focus.

    Mike, you said: But you say Jesus didn’t have an origin, don’t you?  Micah 5:2 says he did.  Please reconcile.

    The One who became a giver and a receiver of the eternal substance,  was eternal in the past and then at the onset of the process of begetting, the origin of a relationship of father and son began. So, in a sense, the Father has a beginning (an origin) as well as the Son has a beginning (an origin). In another sense, according to their substance, they didn’t have a beginning or “origin”. Since the name “Jehovah” is for a person who always existed, it can be applied to the Son just as much as it can be applied to the Father. There are two persons that are rightfully called Jehovah and those two persons are together as a divine and eternal unity, the One according to their substance.

    The speaker in Micah 5:2 could be the Son as he represents both he and the Father, a divine and eternal unity or it could be the Father.

    April 20, 2020 at 9:39 am#863190
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    God the Father has no beginning, no origin, He always existed … HE IS INCREATED(non created)
    Psalm 90: [2] Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
    Habakuk 1: [12] Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
    Only the Son has an origin (Micah 5: 2)

    blessings

    April 20, 2020 at 10:17 am#863193
    carmel
    Participant

    2. In verses 27 and 30, they identify Jesus – not as the one to whom they prayed or the one who created everything – but instead as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed… the holy servant OF the one who created everything.

    How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?  Same question for Kathi and Berean.

    Hi Mike,

    me: VERY SIMPLE!

    The Father and the Son ETERNALLY EXISTED TOGETHER.

    Jesus offered to participate IN HIS OWN KINGDOM created by the Father from the very beginning through His Son:

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR

    between God the Father and ALL CREATURES. 

    As without the SON, IN

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON,

    IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ANY  CREATURE TO BE CREATED UNLESS

    THROUGH THE SON.

    OR ELSE ANY CREATURE WOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE DESTROYED IN THE LEAST INTENTION OF EVIL WITHIN

    THEIR HEART,

    BUT once the Son

    ETERNAL LIFE is between THE FATHER and THE CREATURES, 

    PRECISELY IN THEIR HEART, AS “THE WORD”

    both the  CREATURES’ FREE WILL and THE FATHER’S IMMUNITY ARE SECURED and

    PROTECTED

    TO THE EXTENT THAT EVEN WHEN TWO-THIRDS OF THE CREATURES BECAME GOD’S ENEMY, SIMPLY

    AS  ALL RESTORED AND BACK TO THE FATHER

    THE SOURCE, BUT IN

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON 

    Read again Mike what I posted Just in case you didn’t read it ALL!

    Luke 11:17…. Every kingdom
    divided against itself shall be brought to desolation; and house upon house shall fall. 18And if Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand?…..

    OK Mike, EVERY KINGDOM, as clear as crystal

    EVEN GOD’S KINGDOM WOULD EVENTUALLY END

    IF IT IS DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF.

    NOW IN ORDER FOR GOD’S KINGDOM NOT TO BE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF AND EVENTUALLY FALLS

    GOD ENGRAFTED “THE WORD” JESUS, AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT
    ETERNALLY IN

    EVERY SPIRIT CREATURES’ HEART
    AS ETERNAL LIFE. 

    SIMPLY NOT TO DESTROY TOTALLY HIS OWN, GOD’S SPIRIT SUBSTANCE. 

    HIS SON.

    THE FACT THAT LUCIFER

    FINISHED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT, 

    BUT GOD ESTABLISHED HIM, THANKS TO HIS SON ETERNAL LIFE, and SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN THEM

    AN ANGEL OF DARKNESS. PATIENTLY, MEEKLY, AND HUMBLY slain like a lamb….till 

    THIS ANGEL OF DARKNESS RETURNS BACK IN HIS FREE WILL TO THE FATHER. 

    THUS LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS, and

    DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT

     

    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light,(GOD IN “THE WORD” Jesus, as a spirit, THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER, THE LIGHT BEARER)  and create darkness, ( “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit in Satan) I make peace,( “THE WORD”JESUS’ FLESH CRUCIFIED

    THE FATHER COULD NOT EVEN SMELL DEATH, NEVER MIND GIVE HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM) and create evil:(ALLOW SIN, SHIELDED BY “THE WORD” NOT TO BE TOTALLY DESTROYED BY GOD) I the Lord ( GOD “THE WORD” JESUS)

    that do all these things.

    IN ORDER FOR SATAN A SPIRIT CREATURE TO RETURN TO THE FATHER. GOD KNOWS WHEN!

     

    Job20: 18He (SATAN) shall be punished for all that he did, and yet

    shall not be consumed:

    according to the multitude of his devices so also shall he suffer.

    NO MORE NO LESS!
    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 20, 2020 at 10:22 am#863194
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  It is Jehovah who is saying all of these words.  Is it your contention that Jehovah had his origins in the ancient past?

    LU:  The One who became a giver and a receiver of the eternal substance, was eternal in the past and then at the onset of the process of begetting, the origin of a relationship of father and son began.

    The “One who became a giver and a receiver” must have been “Jehovah” even before the clone split, right?  Because “Jehovah” is from everlasting to everlasting, right?

    Isaiah 40:28 
    Have you not known? Have you not heard? Jehovah is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. 

    Psalm 90:2

    Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

     

    LU:  So, in a sense, the Father has a beginning (an origin) as well as the Son has a beginning (an origin).

    But wait… according to the scriptures I just posted, the “Jehovah” who is eternal (no origins) is the “Jehovah” who created the whole world.  So according to your theory, that couldn’t have been either the Father OR the Son – since you say they both have origins.  Kathi, your scenario begins with one God who is eternal, and ends with two Gods – neither of whom are eternal.  They’re made of “eternal stuff”, but they themselves aren’t eternal.  And your scenario doesn’t allow for them to already be two different persons inside the original “cell” – because the split of the first cell would also split the persons in half.  The original would retain half of each person, while the duplicate cell would be comprised of the other half of each of them.

    Okay, so far we know from Isaiah 40 and Psalm 90 that the one identified as “Jehovah” is eternal.  And we know from Micah that this eternal “Jehovah” is going to bring someone forth out of Bethlehem who is NOT eternal, but has ancient origins.  Who is that one with origins in the ancient past who was eventually brought forth from Bethlehem to rule God’s people?

     

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