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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 19, 2020 at 3:28 am#863105
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    Or…

    Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    😉

    April 19, 2020 at 3:32 am#863106
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4. What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them? What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?

    LU: YHWH , the One God manifests Himself in two persons, the Father and the Son. The Son is the servant of the Father and not the other way around.

    Which one of them created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… according to the apostles who prayed in Acts 4?

    April 19, 2020 at 3:38 am#863107
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  …Jesus is called Lord and also Jehovah as seen at times.

    I don’t think so.  Certainly not in the scripture you posted.  The angel in the burning bush was called “YHWH” by Moses.  Maybe Jesus was the angel of YHWH in the bush?  I think there are one or two other scriptures in which one of God’s spirit representatives were addressed as “YHWH”… but none of them give any clear indication that Jesus was God’s representative in any of those cases.

    April 19, 2020 at 3:42 am#863108
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  My last post did that strange disappearing act and while it is fresh on my mind, I will tell you what happened:

    I wrote the post, hit “submit”, wanted to edit it slightly, hit “edit”, edited it, hit “submit,” then the post did not show up on the thread but did show up on my profile in the unedited version. You can probably go to my profile and see the two very similar posts. I then copied my post from my profile section, pasted it over here, made my corrections, then hit “submit” and it went through. I hope that helps you figure this out.

    Still screwing up for me.  I hit Submit, and it takes me to a blank comment page… not to the page of the thread with my submitted post.  So I’ve just been arrowing back and continuing on with the next one – not knowing if the previous one actually posted to the thread or not.

    April 19, 2020 at 3:43 am#863109
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    For example, this is where it takes me when I hit Submit…

    Screenshot (155)

    April 19, 2020 at 3:54 am#863110
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: Good work Berean,

    What the parent is, so is the offspring. They carry the same eternal substance and are the same type and have the same abilities.

    God is the “parent” of many sons… some of them spirit, some of them flesh.  God is spirit, and so yes, Jesus was also begotten as spirit.  As for eternality, that is pure speculation on your part.  In Psalm 82 (I believe), God tells some of His spirit sons that he created them immortal… but they would die like mortal men.  Also, Jesus died.  On the other hand, I’m pretty sure the Father cannot die.  So God’s spirit sons (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal” in the same sense that their Creator is eternal.  Their lives can go on forever if God chooses… or God can end their lives at any time He wants.

    April 19, 2020 at 4:16 am#863112
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed:  assumption upon assumption upon assumption T8

    As Q often asks… How many coincidences before it’s mathematically impossible?    Come on, Eddy…  clearly the Word who was with THE God in the beginning is the same Word who was made flesh and dwelt on earth with the name Jesus.

    I haven’t seen an answer from Jodi on this yet, so I’ll ask you:  In John 17:5, Jesus asks his and our God to glorify him with the glory HE had with God before the world began.  How could Jesus speak of a glory he himself HAD before the world began?

    April 19, 2020 at 4:27 am#863113
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    That’s a good translation.  God spoke the world into creation.  None of the particular words God spoke then – or any time since – are a living entity.  On the other hand, Jesus’s title “The Word of God” means he is God’s spokesman – not to be confused with any literal word God spoke.

    The King of ancient Abyssinia had a spokesman called “The Word of the King”.  The spokesman was not a literal word the king spoke – but a living person.  BUT… it could also have been written, for example, that, “At the word of the King, our taxes are going up.”   In that context, “the word of the King” is the COMMAND of the King – as in the Weymouth Translation above.  And nobody would confuse that use of “the word of the King” with somebody saying he seeks an audience with “The Word of the King” to resolve some issue.

    Understand?  Two exact word phrases… one referring to a COMMAND the King gave – and the other one referring to a PERSON who had the title “The Word of the King” because he was the king’s spokesman.

     

    April 19, 2020 at 4:37 am#863115
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  The end result after asexual reproduction is two identical organisms with substance that is the same age in each. The difference, one beget the other which makes the begetter greater to the begotten. The one who beget is the Father, the one begotten is the son, the Firstborn of God over all creation who is the exact representation of his Father.

    The end result is that one was in existence before the other, and that the latter owes his very existence to an action taken by the former.  Almost like a dad who exists first, and then creates a son who has a lot (but not all) of the qualities of the father who brought him forth into existence.  😉

    You can imagine that they have the exact same substance, or that the latter was already a sentient being existing inside the former before the former brought the latter forth into his own existence.  But this entire cell philosophy is an exercise in futility, because there is nothing in scripture that even hints at such a thing.  Rather, scripture teaches many times that there is one Creator God, and Jesus is His first creation.

    But you do you, Kathi.  😎

    April 19, 2020 at 5:08 am#863116
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Hi Jodi

    Try to be shorter
    and just answer the question we ask you. ..

    Hi Jodi, it’s abundantly clear that you are a very sharp person, and that you’ve forgotten more about scripture than 99% of people will ever learn.  But I have to agree with Berean here.  I’m trying to discuss Jesus with you, but I just don’t have the time to read those novels you post!  😁  I realize that you think there are 100 verses that support your position… but you don’t have to include them all at once.  Maybe you could pick just one verse (like I did with John 17:5), and let’s analyze it to see if it really does teach what you (or I) think it does.  Then we can move on to another single verse, etc.  Cheers.

    April 19, 2020 at 5:21 am#863117
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Happy Resurrection Day everybody, enjoy this song, a favorite of mine, that I want to share with you all.

    Nice.  Thanks. 😊

    April 19, 2020 at 5:43 am#863118
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    You

    You don’t believe that life begins at conception for humans?

    Me

    if I believe
    But the life of a human being really begins when he comes out of his mother’s womb … and we start counting his days from there, isn’t it;
    So the only begotten Son of God has a beginning in eternity when He came out of the Father.
    He is a true Son because he was born of the Father, of the Father’s substance;
    And the Son heard these wonderful words from the Father:
    Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, I will be a Father for you, and you will be to me a Son?
    Before to be begotten, he was not a son; God was alone;
    God is love

    silence

    blessings

    April 19, 2020 at 9:38 am#863124
    Jodi
    Participant

    HI LU,

    YOU:

    That is how it is written in the Aramaic Bible.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    ME: So I looked up information on the translation of this bible and it’s translator and what original text he was translating to English was.

    The bible translation you gave is from George M. Lamsa published in 1933

    The original text is known as the Peshitta, and it seems quite clear that in the Peshitta there is NO “Jehovah” that comes after Jesus Christ is Lord in Phil 2:11, Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology.

    Reason 1. James Murdock also translated the NT Peshitta into English in 1851 and his translation is rendered with NO “Jehovah”, “11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord, to the glory of God his Father.”

    aramaicnewtestament.org uses his translation

    Reason 2. William Norton also translated the NT Peshitta into English in 1889, and his translation is rendered with NO “Jehovah”, “11 and that every tongue should own that Jesus the anointed is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    Reason 3. John Etheridge Peshitta-Aramaic NT (1849), also NO Jehovah
    “and that every tongue should confess that Jeshu the Meshiha is the Lord, to the glory of Aloha his Father.”

    Reason 4. The Way International,  a Christian organization who believe Jesus did not pre-exist, also translated the Peshitta into English a 15 year project,  – Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament. I can’t find their translation free online, but I’d imagine they wouldn’t believe the Peshitta was God’s true word, or they wouldn’t have a doctrine that Jesus didn’t pre-exist if the Peshitta text said Jesus Christ was lord Jehovah.

     

    April 19, 2020 at 9:53 am#863125
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I’ll say it again, Jehovah says Himself that there is none besides Him, no other God but Him, He forms the light.

    David speaks saying, “1 Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 Jehovah shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    Jehovah, who forms the light, where there is no one besides HIM, He calls the rod of Jesse to righteousness where Jehovah will hold his hand and keep him to fulfill Jehovah’s covenant and have him be for a light to Israel and the Gentiles.

    We read that it IS A SON OF MAN SPECIFICALLY that is exalted to sit at Jehovah’s right hand. 

    We read specifically God MAKES Jesus both Lord and Christ.

    We read specifically that it is A SON OF MAN returning in the glory of his Father.

    We read specifically Jesus say that his God is our God and his Father is our Father. 

    We read specifically that, “But to us there is but one God, the Father”.

    LU, Jesus is NOT Jehovah, he IS a MAN who is our savior to the glory of our ONE God, the Father Jehovah

    April 19, 2020 at 11:12 am#863135
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: On the other hand, I’m pretty sure the Father cannot die. 

    ME: THE FACT THAT GOD THE FATHER

    IS NOT OUR REDEEMER.

    UNLESS ONE ACCEPTS THAT JESUS IS 

    GOD

    WHERE THE FATHER CANNOT, and ISN’T ESPECIALLY 

    AS MAN and ON JESUS’ DEATH!

    It is the Father’s plan that HE DIES IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE  IN JESUS’ EMBODIMENT! Well clear in

    Isaiah 42:1Behold my servant, (GOD’S SUBSTANCE! Hebrews1:3 …the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance …)

    I will uphold him: ( ETERNALLY  IN GOD’S FULL POWER, John16:32…….And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. )

    my elect, ( THE SON: ETERNALLY THE POWER and WISDOM OF GOD, 1Corinthians 24…. Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.)

    my soul delighteth in him: ( THE FATHER  and THE HOLY GHOST eternally ABIDE IN “THE WORD” 1 John 5:7 )

    I have given my spirit upon him,( ETERNALLY THE FATHER IN THE SON, John14:9-11..I am in the Father and the Father in me? …

     

    YOU: So God’s spirit sons (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal”

    ME ( Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc. ARE ALL IN THE SON, ALL IN HIM John 1:3,  and ONLY THE SON  REVEALS THE FATHER! 

    Luke 10:22 All things (Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.)

    are delivered, to me by my Father.(TO BE  SUSTAINED BY JESUS, COLOSSIANS 1:15-20, John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man(Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.)cometh to the Father, but by me.)

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and to whom

    the Son(JESUS) will reveal him.( IN HIS EMBODIMENT)

    NOT, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.

     

    YOU: (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal” in the same sense that their Creator is eternal.

    ME: THE FATHER IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE

    WITHOUT THE SON, ETERNAL LIFE!

    John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have

    life in himself. (eternal)

    John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    THE FATHER CANNOT

    EVEN

    CREATE WITHOUT JESUS “THE WORD”

    THE UNIQUE SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, the shield, the protector, no matter whom,

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES.

    YOU: Their lives can go on forever if God chooses… or God can end their lives at any time He wants.

    ME: Mike that is CORRUPTED CARNAL MINDED REASONING and MENTALITY! WITH EVERY RESPECT.

    GOD IS LOVE, CHARITY, HUMILITY ETC..

    THERE’S NO SUCH THING THAT  GOD DESTROYS TOTALLY HIS CREATURES, AS IT IS A CLEAR WEAKNESS IN GOD WHO CREATED THEM, and NOT LOVE AT ALL.  ALL SPIRITS THAT CAME OUT FROM GOD

    MUST RETURN TO GOD and GLORIFIED!   NO MATTER WHOM.

    OUR CORRUPTED FLESH BODY ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WOULD BE GLORIFIED!

    IT IS ALREADY IN HEAVEN EMBODIED IN

    JESUS CHRIST!

    1 PETER 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy

    hath regenerated us

    unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:

     4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 

    5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

     

    THE FACT THAT GOD ALLOWED THE VERY FIRST SIN OF THE REBEL TO OCCUR. 

    IT IS GOD’S PLAN THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS BECOME CORRUPTED, SIMPLY AS THROUGH THEM AND IN THEM

    GOD’S GLORY OF LOVE WOULD BE REVEALED.

    Now that’s where “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit is VITAL as a spirit/mediator.

    “THE WORD” JESUS AS A SPIRIT, IS GOD’S OWN DIVINE ELEMENT BETWEEN THE FATHER’S SPIRIT ELEMENT AND THE CREATURES’SPIRIT ELEMENT, EVEN AS FLESH,

     

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual and more piercing than any two-edged sword;

    and reaching unto the division of

    the soul and the spirit, of (THE SPIRIT PROCESS)

    the joints also and the marrow: ( THE PHYSICAL PROCESS)

    and is a discerner of the thoughts and

    intents of the heart. 

    THE FACT THAT SATAN( AS A SPIRIT) EXISTS BY “THE WORD” JESUS  AND NEVER ENDS, AS JESUS, “THE WORD”  ETERNAL LIFE, A DIVINE ELEMENT IS IN HIM, PROTECTS HIM FROM THE FATHER, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB, TILL HE RETURNS TO THE FATHER, EVEN IF IT SEEMS A

    NEVER ENDING STORY!

    IT WOULD BE A SUICIDE IF THE FATHER DESTROYS HIS SON HIDDEN IN SATAN AND OTHER CREATURES AS SPIRITS,

    PLUS THAT GOD WOULD HAVE AN END AS WELL. 

    Luke 11:17…. Every kingdom

    divided against itself shall be brought to desolation; and house upon house shall fall. 18And if Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand?…..

    OK Mike, EVERY KINGDOM, as clear as crystal

    EVEN GOD’S KINGDOM WOULD EVENTUALLY END

    IF IT IS DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF.

    NOW IN ORDER FOR GOD’S KINGDOM NOT TO BE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF AND EVENTUALLY FALLS

    GOD ENGRAFTED “THE WORD” JESUS, AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT

    ETERNALLY IN

    EVERY SPIRIT CREATURES’ HEART

    AS ETERNAL LIFE. 

    SIMPLY NOT TO DESTROY TOTALLY HIS OWN, GOD’S SPIRIT SUBSTANCE. 

    HIS SON.

    THE FACT THAT LUCIFER FINISHED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT, BUT GOD ESTABLISHED HIM AN ANGEL OF DARKNESS

    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light,(GOD IN “THE WORD” Jesus, as a spirit, THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER, THE LIGHT BEARER)  and create darkness, ( “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit in Satan) I make peace,( “THE WORD”JESUS’ FLESH CRUCIFIED) and create evil:(ALLOW SIN, SHIELDED BY “THE WORD” NOT TO BE TOTALLY DESTROYED BY GOD) I the Lord ( GOD “THE WORD” JESUS) that do all these things.

    IN ORDER FOR SATAN A SPIRIT CREATURE TO RETURN TO THE FATHER. GOD KNOWS WHEN!

    Job20: 18He shall be punished for all that he did, and yet

    shall not be consumed:

    according to the multitude of his devices so also shall he suffer.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 19, 2020 at 5:50 pm#863152
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Here you go Jodi, this should help:

    http://aramaicnt.com/files/MarYah%20in%20Peshitta.pdf

    April 20, 2020 at 1:46 am#863156
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  The original text is known as the Peshitta, and it seems quite clear that in the Peshitta there is NO “Jehovah” that comes after Jesus Christ is Lord in Phil 2:11, Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology…

    Wow Jodi… great detective work!  Kudos. 👍

    April 20, 2020 at 2:12 am#863157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: THE FATHER IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE WITHOUT THE SON, ETERNAL LIFE!

    John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have
    life in himself. (eternal)

    John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    THE FATHER CANNOT EVEN CREATE WITHOUT JESUS “THE WORD”

    Hi Carmel, I think you’ve got it twisted.  It is the Son who can do nothing without his and our God, the Father.  The Father doesn’t have that limitation.  Take a look at the prayer in Acts 4:24-30.  I’ll post just some parts here…

    Acts 4

    24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    27 …the people of Israel in this city conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

    30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    1. In verse 24, they pray to “God”.  They claim that the one to whom they prayed is the one who created everything.  Agreed?

    2. In verses 27 and 30, they identify Jesus – not as the one to whom they prayed or the one who created everything – but instead as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed… the holy servant OF the one who created everything.

    How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?  Same question for Kathi and Berean.

    April 20, 2020 at 3:36 am#863160
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology…

    I think you need to dig a little deeper than that.

    Again, look at this and you will see that there is sufficient reason to translate the original word in the Syriac text as “Lord Jehovah.” I know that it is a direct hit to your doctrine and hard to accept but you would do well to purchase the original text with the interlinear and see that the word translated as “Lord Jehovah” is found throughout the OT and the NT for the tetragrammaton, YHWH.

    http://aramaicnt.com/files/MarYah%20in%20Peshitta.pdf

    Hopeful, LU

    April 20, 2020 at 3:56 am#863162
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Asexual reproduction is not a creation of something different, it is the reproduction of something the same.

    I agree that the relationship was created in a sense, but not the substance. What that means is the father relationship was created just as much as the son relationship was created. Before the process of begetting, there was no father, there was One who decided to give and at the same time, receive of himself to be no longer One but Two. The Two are different in that one gives and the other receives. The one that gives is the dominant one in the new relationship and thus the parent or Father in this case.

    You say that it has no scriptural support but the term “begotten” supports it, the eternalness of God supports it, the relationship of Father and Son supports it.

    I see the only begotten son of God and think of the son as one who is a divinely biological son of God. That is a true son, not a son of a different type.

    Here is my most recent diagram which illustrates this point:

    ClosedMitosisDiagram

    Hopeful, LU

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