Well Pierre,The angel's name is Jehovah, God of hosts and if God of hosts, He is not a created angel because the 'hosts' were created by the word of God.Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Pierre and Kerwin,It doesn't say that He is the first of all creation…it says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation and then goes on to say that all things came into being by Him.The Son is deity, one with the Father, He is eternal…was always within the Father, not as an act of the will, and then, before the…[Read more]

It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the…[Read more]

Mike, In Gen 18 and in the story of Jacob wrestling with God, this is not an incident of a vice regent. Scripture clearly identifies the one as Jehovah as is made clear in Hosea 4. You must use conjecture to say otherwise.Kathi

Hi Mike,I know you have made a lot of posts to me which I haven't specifically addressed. They have come and gone, so hit me up with just one for now if you would like.Kathi

Kerwin,My understanding of the term pre-existent Son is an only begotten divine Son that has a mind and a will and a spirit…He was within the Father as an offspring that always existed, and then was begotten/born from the Father to work with Him…equal in nature to the Father just like a literal son would be…equally divine.John 3:16 “For G…[Read more]

Pierre,Genesis 18 talks about one of the visitors with Abraham was Jehovah, read it.Hosea 4 which I have been showing you names the one who wrestled with the Jacob was Jehovah, the God of hosts. So if He is called the God of hosts, He is not one of the hosts.Do you see in each of these chapters where Jehovah is the name of one of those that are…[Read more]

Keith,You have argued endlessly over the term 'begotten God' and now you are acting like you didn't. What is your use of the word 'begotten' as a verb?So the Nicene Creed is not the foundation of the orthodox faith. Can you show me where the foundation of the orthodox faith began?Did I ever say that I accept early 'orthodox' trinitarian views or…[Read more]

Pierre,I don't agree with Gill on every point but on the Son being begotten and not created, and also eternal within the Father, then begotten before the ages, I do agree with that. Also that the Son was called Jehovah in the OT and appeared to man as Jehovah in the OT. The Father and Son are both called Jehovah. I don't agree that anyone else…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2011,13:51)Hi All,I voted “I don't know” because it differs from person to person anyway.I will tell you what we all DO know though:  There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist.  I exist now b…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2011,13:27)Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,13:07)That is still a mystery, so yes, there still is mystery but I understand a whole lot more than I used to and I am comfortable to call myself a trinitarian according to the early church views,…KathiWow I am glad to hear you are “comfortable to be called a…[Read more]

Keith,Quote So God was within God?So what changed when he was “brought forth”? Can you answer this question…Was the Father the unbegotten God before Jesus was begotten?A God, as Son, was within God the Father. A God, as Father, was not within another God who is God the Father.The Father was always unbegotten, He was the begetter of the Son.…[Read more]

Keith,I forgot to address this:Quote If begotten to you does not mean “concieved”, “born”, or “procreated”, but “brougth forth” then why couldn't his begetting be after he came in the flesh or was resurrected?I do believe that begotten means 'born' but not by labor and delivery for that is human. He was born by some way, maybe by even the command…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2011,12:19)Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,12:07)Before He was begotten, He existed ready to help the Father.  See the difference?Hi KathiNo I don't understand.Was Jesus “another being” in the Father?If begotten to you does not mean “concieved”, “born”, or “procreated”, but “brougth forth” then why couldn't his…[Read more]

Mike,I show scripture like Hosea 12. It does clearly say that the one that wrestled with Jacob is named Jehovah plus I give you a scholar that sees that clearly also.  So, don't tell me about scripture not saying it.  You and I are reading the scripture through two different foundations.  I am reading it through the foundation that the church is…[Read more]

Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,00:20)Kathi,Do you mean that Jesus is insite God through the Spirit of Holiness just as God is inside Jesus by the Spirit of Christ.  In the same way both are inside those that believe by the Spirit of God and theose that believe are inside the father through the Son via the Holy Spirit.That is the description of the…[Read more]

Keith,At least I have an understanding of the creeds. The trinitarians that are around today don't understand and just say that it is a mystery. Well, I don't believe that God wants the creed of our faith to be so mysterious. That sounds like a cult leader saying that you must believe in this mystery. How can someone defend their faith which…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2011,10:24)Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,20:22)KathiNO and No ,what you try or what you see is not thereI agree Pierre.Kathi seems to often apply what she WANTS the scriptures to say to the scriptures, thereby confirming for herself that they say what she WANTS them to say.But to claim that Jesus is also named…[Read more]

Keith,I don't want to sabotage William's thread. Bring this up in another thread and let me know where to go with a PM. OK?Kathi

Hi Kerwin,I would be happy to discuss this with you. Please tell me what you mean by the 'inherited spirit of Christ.' I want to understand what you are saying before I respond.Thanks,Kathi