Mike you know that there are passages that acknowledge that Jesus was credited as the agent of creation.John 1:3Col 1:16Heb 1:31 Cor 8:6

No Mike, I don' acknowledge that.

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 09 2011,20:13)Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2011,08:18)Welcome Devolution,you said:Quote Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself.Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the…[Read more]

Mike,Quote EVEN Trinitarians, and others who think Jesus is either the Father he is the Son of, or the God he is the Son of. Trinitarians do not believe that.Kathi

Welcome Devolution,you said:Quote Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself.Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the trinity. That would be Modalism.Kathi

Mike, Jehovah didn't even say I am I am. So?

Mike,In your example all the 'you's and your's' are pointing to one person, the Father. In Hebrews all the you's are pointing to one person, the Son. The 'and' is just a part of the reason this is further talking about the Son, all the 'you's' are another reason. Have you noticed the Eusebius thread and that Eusebius admits to there being a…[Read more]

Pierre:Heb 1:8 But of the Son  He says,         “ YOUR  THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,         AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“ YOU  HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;         THEREFORE GOD, YOUR  GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU         WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,         “ YOU , LORD,…[Read more]

Here in this quote we can see that Eusebius understands the scriptures to be speaking of two Lords (Jehovah is what the Hebrew word is for 'LORD' in the OT at this event which Eusebius references), btw, he also does not consider the Son as one of the subordinate angels as you can see here:Quote 9. Moses most clearly proclaims him second Lord after…[Read more]

Mike you are breaking context with that approach and forcing a bias. You have to account for the 'and' which is connecting the phrases having to do with the Son. There is nothing said to indicate a change in the speaker or person spoken about.Kathi

In this quote from Eusebius, we see that he referred to the Son as the 'Creator Himself.'Quote Such, then, was the Son, sole-begotten of His will, Master of fair crafts and Creator of all things, Whom the Highest God, God and Father of the Creator Himself first before all begat, setting in Him and through Him the creative proportions of things…[Read more]

Eusebius wrote this:Quote But these are all earthly images and touched with mortality, parts of this lower corrupt and earthly constitution, whereas the scope of the theology we are considering far transcends all illustrations, and is not connected with anything physical, but imagines with the acutest thought a Son Begotten, not at one time…[Read more]

Mike,Here are your 'for instance' scriptures:Genesis 2:24, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) flesh.” Here, a man is described as leaving his father and mother, cleaving to his wife, and both of them becoming one (echad) flesh.One other illustration where echad…[Read more]

Mike,I came across some words of yours and think that you should ask them of yourself in regards to what you just did in the post above:Quote Don't you think that when you have to start adding parenthesis and words that explain to us how YOU understand the scripture, something is wrong?From:…[Read more]

Mike,Can you admit that 'echad' can mean unity?Jehovah is echad. Kathi

Mike,Within the quote, the Son is the subject:8But of the Son He says, “ YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COM…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2011,22:34)Gee, is Kathi dead??  Why don't you ask her This was my last post before I left for about 6 weeks in January:https://www.heavennet.net/cgi-bin….7;st=20Sixth post down.See if you guys can figure it out after reading that KathiHi Mike,Did that bring 'light' to your discussion with Edj? Hopefully you can get…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2011,22:34)Gee, is Kathi dead??  Why don't you ask her This was my last post before I left for about 6 weeks in January:https://www.heavennet.net/cgi-bin….7;st=20Sixth post down.See if you guys can figure it out after reading that KathiHi Mike,Did that bring 'light' to your discussion with Edj? Hopefully you can get…[Read more]

Gee, is Kathi dead?? Why don't you ask her This was my last post before I left for about 6 weeks in January:https://www.heavennet.net/cgi-bin….7;st=20Sixth post down.See if you guys can figure it out after reading that Kathi

Gee, is Kathi dead?? Why don't you ask her This was my last post before I left for about 6 weeks in January:https://www.heavennet.net/cgi-bin….7;st=20Sixth post down.See if you guys can figure it out after reading that Kathi