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[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

1. Isaiah 53

Who is speaking where in this soliloquy? One must begin reading at the end of chapter 52, this is where this last “servant song” begins (why was it cut where it was…hmmm). Who is the servant (begin reading in chapter 41)? It’s not the Jesus!! Verse 10 is a tricky one to apply to the Jesus; unless of course one believes what they are told that it refers to “spiritual children”; except the word zera is used and means “descendants, seed, offspring” (that biological thing).

2. Daniel 9:26

To really understand verse 26, you have to start in verse one and why is Daniel distraught; why is he praying and lamenting before G-d that they’re still in captivity? Enter the vision, explain these 70 weeks and why this “clock” stopped at 69 and we have been waiting for 2000 year for this last week to be fulfilled. Unfortunately you’ll be waiting another 2000 years; the 70th week ended with the destruction of the Temple because of verse 24, Israel didn’t do what G-d said.

3. Zechariah 12:10

Did you read this chapter or did you parachute onto a verse you were told was about the Jesus because of the word “pierced”; and because the Jesus was pierced, this single verse has to be the Jesus? This chapter seems to be about the destruction of those who come against Jerusalem and the protection of its inhabitants, even the feeblest among them will fight like David. Then we come to the verse you claim is about the Jesus, but we just read about a battle over Jerusalem. Don’t you think there were some Israelite’s who died and of those who did, were mourned as the rest of the verse says. Context is everything!

4. Psalm 22

You realize this is a Psalm of David and is about David, right??

5. Psalm 69

Read the verses before and after to put verse 9 into context and explain how you get the Jesus! Or is this another parachute verse christianity loves?

Conclusion:

The Tanakh teaches a righteous, suffering figure who dies for the sins of others, is vindicated by God, and brings salvation to Israel and the nations. This is exactly what the Messiah was expected to do.

So G-d didn’t mean it when HE said you’re responsible for your owns sins? You have a false understanding of Isa 53. In the previous post I gave you what the Messiah is suppose to do when he comes and the Jesus didn’t do anything except be Jewish.

So when does the Jesus bring salvation to Israel and the nations in the NT? Again, I only read judgment for not believing in him. Then there’s that 1000 year reign and at the end Satan will be allowed to deceive again, apparently the Jesus didn’t do a good job leading and did the NT bible disappear so no one knows what’s coming?

Why do you think I continually say to verify what you have been told is truth?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Proverbs 8 is poetry; quit making it what it isn’t. It’s wisdom personified, given human like qualities (calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth”), and that’s it! Of course wisdom was there “with” G-d before creation and “saw” everything come to be; wisdom IS G-d and not something separate from HIM. Did you read the chapter or did Grok help you? When G-d created man, HE created them in HIS image and with that you also received wisdom. You can use wisdom to make wise decisions or not, as the chapter says; do you “bring forth” or “birth” wisdom daily in your life?

Remove your Jesus goggles and see the truth…it’s freeing!

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

You are absolutely 100% correct that the Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty and therefore CANNOT be the Messiah; everything after that you CANNOT prove with the Tanakh and is therefore mental gymnastics by christianity to “fix” the lies of the NT. Even if we could accept this “scenario” of non-biological descent, which we don’t, it’s NOT what they would have understood (a god impregnating a human woman); they understood the birds and the bees and where children came from. It’s funny how people find it ridiculous the Greek and Roman gods impregnating mortal women; but don’t you dare question the birth of the Jesus. How do you not see this?!?!?

When has the Jesus done the following?

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel 
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of the Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem 
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after the Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace 
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

 He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments 

“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy (remember there are 613 commands, not only ten).

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d 
“And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)

It says “all people”; not only those who have “accepted the Jesus.” Please, oh please, don’t tell me he’ll do all this when he returns, because I’ve never read this in the NT; what I read is judgment and hell.

If there is anything between you and G-d, wouldn’t that be called idolatry?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Point 1

Sefaria

Biblehub

The Sefaria link gives the definition of: “to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”; does it say create is one of its meanings??

Clicking the Biblehub link scroll to section 1, sub a. What does that say; “of God as originating, creating” and look, does it say Prov 8:22?!?!!? Are you done beating the dead horse?!?!?

Point 2, 3, 4 Not interested in arguing words, I don’t have the time to spend; what does nitpicking their meanings bring to the conversation? Again, I don’t speak Hebrew and can only rely on how they translated the words and that’s it.

Point 5

Never once have I assumed “Proverbs 8 = “wisdom as an abstract concept”; I’ve said wisdom was a characteristic and that it was given human like qualities. Definitely NOT a reference to the Jesus.

Point 6

Where did you get the idea I said these passages where “Greek ideas”?

Point 7

I did say “only begotten son”; and not just “son.”

Point 8

Everyone of those passages I have already discussed at length and christianity has falsely taken them out of context, twisted, and injected the Jesus into the passages. Last I check this was the Hebrew bible and NOT christianity’s; what does a Jew say these passages mean?

FOLLOW‑UP QUESTION:

Can YOU show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?

The crux of Proverbs 8 is christianity want/needs it to be about the Jesus and it simply isn’t; which is why you are delving so deep into the meanings of certain words.

Still waiting for what it means when G-d said of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”? Whose dynasty is G-d speaking of?

Still waiting for your “creation” point.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Translations are also becoming an issue; which one are we using or is this the “battle of the translations and mine is more correct than yours”? I use a Jewish to English translation, wanting to stay as close to the original writings as possible; what do you use, is it a translation of a translation?

One of the scriptures I reference reads (8:22-25):

22 Hashem made me as the beginning of His way, before His deeds of yore. 23 I have reigned for all time: from the beginning, from before [there was] the earth. 24 When there were no depths, I was formed; when there were no pools rich with water, 25 before the mountains were settled. Before the hills, I was formed;

In this passage wisdom was “made” or “formed”; the term “born” isn’t there; see the conflict yet? To be “born” or “brought forth” is a form of creation, because it didn’t exist prior and now it does (big problem for christianity because now they have to perform great mental gymnastics to explain the Jesus has always been…yet, G-d never says he has an “‘only’ begotten son” in the Tanakh, this is NT); so how can this chapter be a reference to the Jesus?

Still waiting for your “creation” point. If your point is to say everything in the Tanakh was to point to the Jesus, claiming he is the Messiah, you’re going to have to explain what the Jesus fulfilled the Messiah was to do when he came…see how everything circles back to this one point of the Jesus being the true Messiah and all else being moot until this single point is established?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that someone was born of God before creation and was with God.

The major problem with what you wrote is “someone was born of God before creation”; have no idea where you are getting that from any translation. Almost every translation I have looked at (38 on BibleHub) have either “possessed”, “acquired”, or a variation of “created”; not one of them says “born.” Wisdom was with G-d before creation is agreeable, because it was created by G-d before creation.

From the Jewish Study Bible:

22 The LORD created me at the beginning of His course as the first of His works of old. 23 In the distant past I was fashioned, at the beginning, at the origin of earth.

To answer your question, NO I can’t admit what you wrote is entirely correct; wisdom was created and NOT born. Unless you can provide evidence to support what you’re saying. So where are you going with your creation line of thought? Just ask the question.

Personally, knowing whether or not the Jesus is the true Messiah is the MOST important conversation to have; he is the foundation for christianity. Knowing whether he fulfilled what G-d said the Messiah was to do is beyond important and everything else is moot. If the Jesus isn’t the true Messiah, then everything taught and believed by christiantity is false.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Did you actually read the Proverb? In verse 3 it says “she cries out:” and what is she proclaiming? EVERYTHING AFTER THAT!! Grammar is your friend. Don’t forget to look out for those pesky quotation marks as she is continuing to “cry out.”

Guess again!

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the Father, then during eternity, before creation, was begotten from the Father. The begetting was the Father’s first work before the work of creation.

Prove it! The Tanakh speaks nothing of G-d having a preexisting son or a son who would be the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

Still waiting for what it means when G-d said of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”? Whose dynasty is G-d speaking of?

Still waiting for how the Jesus is the Messiah when he didn’t fulfill what was spoken that he would do when he comes.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Now begin reading from verse one; who is speaking throughout the entire chapter? Are you paying attention to the quotation marks? Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote on this chapter a few posts back.

Also, why are you starting toward the end of the chapter? I’ll ask again, do you begin reading a novel in the middle? If not, why do you in the bible? Why does context NOT matter?

When was the Jesus “born” before there was water or mountains? I thought he always existed.

Did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken of the Messiah in the Tanakh (link)? If the Jesus misses just one thing, can he still be considered the Messiah?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Once again, what you are sighting is “polluted”; it is not based in the Tanakh. I do not base anything on the interpretive minds of man; to site Philo as an authoritative source falls flat; he was a GREEK PHILOSOPHER who happened to be Jewish…big whoop! To site this Jew or that Jew because they believed this or that, is it true Judaism they are trying to convey? I don’t care what others believe or have taught; I care what scripture says. If what you believe is contradictory to what G-d said, it’s false. You’re justifying what you believe to be truth; when will you, or anyone, verify what they are told?

In the Prov 8 passage you’re basing everything you believe on a single word – craftsman. By using the word “craftsman” one can now find the connection to the Jesus. When the correct word is used, it points to wisdom only being present during creation. How do you not see this? Why do you reject what is in front of you?

Prove to yourself the Jesus is the true Messiah; did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken of the Messiah in the Tanakh? The simple answer is no, but you have to find it for yourself and once you do…freedom.

[DesireTruth]

@lightenup,

We’re going in circles.

Philo was a Jewish Greek philosopher (Hellenized Jew) and if that is your proof for wisdom being divine and the creator of the world, you need to find another source as his perspective is from Greek philosophy and NOT Judaism.

You then site a book (Sirach) that is not in any biblical translation as proof?!?! Seriously!!

We have been over “memra” already and I don’t recall you having countered it with any reasonable argument. In the Targums it is used as a substitute for YHWH.

You then bring up the “Two Powers in Heaven” and again you have NOT supported this nonsense with scripture that G-d exists in two forms, one invisible as a spirit, and the other visible in human form.

You aren’t doing a good job of convincing me to come back to the idolatry of christianity.

Concerning your other post and specifically when you said:

The passage in Proverbs is commonly accepted as referring to Jesus.

Just because something is “commonly accepted” doesn’t make it truth. All you have to do is read the passage without the Jesus goggles on and you will see you have been duped into believing a lie. This passage has NOTHING to do with the Jesus no matter how much you believe it does. The Jesus did zero creating and fashion of the earth; only G-d did that and HE needed no help.

Nice try, but guess again!

[DesireTruth]

@Lighten up,

Do you understand how grammar works? Quotation marks signifies speech and that speech is attached to the one who is speaking; can you explain why suddenly in the middle of the chapter there is a paragraph that shifts away from the original speaker to point to another in meaning and context?

Why did you ignore everything else written to focus on the gender of words. While I do applaud you for knowing that (most languages do), the main point of the entire page was focused on the fact of christianity parachuting on a small piece of the whole and ignoring the context of what is written so they can find the Jesus. Especially verse 30, the main focal point to why you believe what you believe – wisdom being the “craftsman.” Wisdom being the logos of John 1:1 and the logos being the Jesus…christianity does like their merry-go-rounds.

Additionally, have you looked at the Jewish thought on anything written in the Tanakh that you believe points to the Jesus or what they say their scripture means; or does christianities interpretation take precedence? Do you know Hebrew?

Be back Monday…

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

That’s an interesting interpretation of Prov 8:22-31; except there is more to this chapter than nine verses. Does believing something make it truth or do you believe what you believe because it fits your religious beliefs?

To understand these nine verses, one MUST start at the beginning of the chapter. Do you start in the middle of a novel or do you start at the beginning? If you don’t begin reading in the middle, explain why you are doing it here in Proverbs 8; you’ve missed what was said prior and in doing so, have missed the context of this chapter.

Starting in verse one:

1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice? 2 On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates, at the opening to the city, at the entrance of the doors, she cries out: (NASB)

Wisdom is a woman; not a man or sexless deity. The Jesus was a man – huge big hole.

Next, one will notice at the beginning of verse 4 a quotation mark signifying she is saying something and the words preceding this punctuation gives the reader the explicit indication she is going to “cry out” with something. She is talking to all mankind, whether smart or simple, to listen to what she has to say because it’s truth, righteous, and her instruction is better than the most valuable item. That took us thru verse 11. (A sort of a call to attention; listen to what I have to say.)

In verse 12 there is another quotation mark, she is continuing to speak. She lives with prudence and finds knowl­edge and discretion; however, she hates pride, arrogance; evil ways, and a perverted mouth. When rulers govern justly, they do so because of wisdom. To gain wisdom, one must love it; one must seek after her and in doing so, will find her. Wisdom promises material rewards, but she also says she is supe­rior to material things and she endows wealth to those who love her. That took us to verse 21. (Speaking in the present to mankind and what she offers him.)

Did you notice the quotation mark at the beginning of 22, this would mean wisdom is still speaking. Verse 22 is an interesting passage, “The LORD created me at the beginning of His course as the first of His works of old” (some translations say “possess” as in to acquire or gain). Verse 23: “In the distant past I was fashioned, at the beginning, at the origin of earth” (wisdom was fashioned before the earth was created). This isn’t a preexistence that has always been around, this isn’t a “unified spirit”; this is a characteristic G-d created before the world. Wisdom was there when G-d placed the heavens and established the earth and everything in it. Nothing about a “spirit being” that existed from eternity.

Moving onto verse 30 is what I find interesting and is where the christian gets this wisdom is logos is the Jesus theology; virtually all christian interpretive translations have wisdom as “the craftsman” beside G-d as if wisdom is the one doing the creating. King Jimmy says wisdom is “as one brought up with Him” and the NIV says wisdom “was constantly at his side”; looking at the Hebrew it calls wisdom a protege, nursling, or confidant. The two translations I dislike with a passion align with the Hebrew.

Using a Hebrew translator for verse 30 “And I will be a trust in him” a “confidant” NOT a craftsman; more corruption by the christian translators trying to push a narrative? Appearing to insert the Jesus again where it was never meant to be. This section is more of wisdom reminiscing of the past and what she saw at creation than pointing to a deity like figure (aka the Jesus).

In this final section, please note the quotation mark again – she’s still speaking, wisdom again says to listen; for those who do, they will find happiness and will become wise themselves. Those who find wisdom, find life and life comes from G-d. She also gives a caution to those who reject/hate her, they love death.

This is poetry not a call to the Jesus. Wisdom is a gift freely given by G-d to those who seek it and when it’s found, one begins to make decision and choices that are good and in some cases, profitable. It’s not the elevation in wealth that makes the man; it’s the wisdom from G-d that does. Listen to Solomon and not man.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

What is this being, according to your understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures?

There’s your misunderstanding, wisdom is not a “being”; wisdom is a characteristic. Wisdom is a gift from G-d given to mankind before G-d created everything, as Solomon writes. Wisdom in this chapter is personified and given man like qualities; does this make it a man – NO!

Stop being vague, ask your question or make your statement. What do you believe?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Please explain the point you’re trying to make concerning Proverbs 8. Make a statement or ask the question.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Please don’t try to psychoanalyze me…it won’t end well 🙂

The “crux” has nothing to do with creation (although what I understand today is opposite of chrisitanity); the “crux” is the christian church lied to me for 40 years and I have only recently come to realize it. My journey started with asking my pastor questions to the point it angered him and later almost got me kicked out. I was told I was studying to much and needed to pray more…what the what??!??! (most every church I’ve attended the pastors has said to verify what they’re saying; I did, and now I need to stop questioning what they’re teaching and stop questioning doctrine??). I left christianity because of the lies I was discovering.

The three questions you ask concerning creation are ALL an emphatic NO! The Jesus never existed before or during creation And he had no part in it. G-d did it all

You site Proverbs 8 and in that you will find the Jesus where he doesn’t exist. I would presume you are referring to Prov 8:22–31, where wisdom is said to be personified as God’s co-creator, begotten before creation, and delighting in humanity…the Jesus.

This entire chapter is personifying wisdom and has nothing to do with the Jesus. A Jewish sage wrote:

Wisdom’s Speech: The previous sections offered mainly practical wisdom, including counsel to young people on how to conduct themselves and what to avoid, as well as a description of seductive wisdom using the imagery of a strange woman. This section depicts a different aspect of wisdom and consists mainly of a poetic soliloquy delivered by an anthropomorphized wisdom. This is a unique speech in the book of Proverbs and, indeed, in the Bible as a whole. Wisdom is described here from its greatest heights down to its lowest levels, from subjects that go beyond metaphysics and the upper worlds to everyday advice given to a young man venturing forth into the world.

You bring in the book of Hebrews; please read this previous posting (link) where I pick apart the first chapter. The passages sited in this first chapter are not used in the context they were written; thus twisting G-d’s word and rendering it as a false book and should be torn from the pages of the NT. How many ever go back and verify passages quoted from the Tanakh? NOT A SINGLE ONE! It took me 40 years to do it; I sat in a church hitting the “I Believe Button”, trusted every word coming from the monologuing individual standing behind a podium and never question a thing, until I did and what happened…

I am here until Dec 31, 2032 midnight or when this site shuts down (which ever comes first), the Jesus is suppose to return by this date as someone here claimed (others of this teaching say 2033). What’s crazy is this is a rising teaching; and when the Jesus doesn’t show up for those who believe it, what then? It will be like the Adventists “Great Disappointment” of the mid 1800’s. Unfortunately, if people only had a brain, the “pretrib rapture” would have occurred and we would be in the tribulation now.

You seem like an intelligent individual, what’s preventing you from verifying passages you were told are about the Jesus in the Tanakh? Read the entire section the verse is embedded in and ask if christianity is using it in its original context. Once you see the lies, you can never unsee them; this is when you realize you’ve been duped and you walk away from christianity and turn to G-d only.

PS The shift away from what we were talking about to analyzing me didn’t go unnoticed.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Your second set of “if you can’t prove the opposite, your wrong and I’m right” childish arguments.

Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?

II Sam 7:12 and I Chron 28:7 are the two passages I already gave you; unless you don’t understand the “birds and the bees.” Every person up to Solomon was conceived thru a man and woman copulating and there after, all the way to the Jesus (designed by G-d); but suddenly G-d says HE’s going to impregnate a woman for the first time in the history of mankind. Wake up!!

Where does the Tanakh say God cannot have an only‑begotten Son?

Been over this!

Where does the Tanakh say God cannot beget?

Remember the definition above; because HE told man to “be fruitful and multiple” (Gen 1:28) why would HE get involved in impregnating a woman.

Where does the Tanakh say God cannot create a child without a human father?

Now we are entering pagan territory, recall Greek and Roman gods. Israel is G-d’s chosen people and set apart from the rest of the nations (Gen 17:7; Ex 19:5-6; Deut 7:6; Amos 3:1-2, etc.); so why would G-d create a baby like other religions of the world do? Even if G-d did father the Jesus, what was the mission of the Jesus: “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.” (Matt 15:24); read that again, the ONLY purpose of the Jesus was for the lost of Israel, the 10 tribes scattered and of which lost tribe did the Jesus return to God? Not one! According to Isa 11:10-16 the “root of Jesse” will “assemble the banished of Israel, And gather the dispersed of Judah” and please don’t tell me the Jesus will do this when he returns, this is NEVER once mentioned in the NT! The Jesus when he returns is only to judge those who rejected him. The Jesus fails to fulfill what the Messiah is to do when he comes; what else didn’t the Jesus do? Could this be why the religious leaders rejected him as the true Messiah?

Where does the Tanakh say God cannot send His Son?

Did this already!

Where does the Tanakh say God cannot reveal Himself through His Son?

Another already answered!

The evidence against christianity is mountainous and all any christian has to do is read and study the Tanakh to find the truth and one will find the NT doesn’t align with the Tanakh. I am not here to convert or change you; you have to that. The Tanakh has everything you need; it’s written in black and white. Verify everything you have been told is truth!

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Your response is bewildering! You can’t support what you believe so you’re going to use reverse arguments to support it; because to doesn’t say it’s not there, it is?!??? A pastor tried this on me once; we’re adults, not grade-schoolers on a playground. Either you can support what you believe or you can’t; if you can’t, why do you believe what you believe?

Where does the Tanakh say that God cannot have a Son?

HE does have a son, a firstborn; Israel (Ex 4:22-23; Deut 32:6; Jer 31:9; Hos 11:1 )

Where does it say God cannot beget?

“In the Bible, “begat” means to father or bring forth a child, often used in genealogies to indicate lineage.” So the Jesus was fathered by the spirit, who is not in the lineage of David and Solomon and therefore the Jesus is not of their lineage. How is it you don’t see this?? It would seem it’s willful ignorance. You still haven’t answered: what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Where does it say God cannot send His Son?

Where does it say HE would send anyone to be the “propitiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins” (I John 2:2), the purpose of the Jesus coming according to christianity; especially when G-d said each individual is responsible for their own sins (Deut 24:16; Jer 31:30; Ezk 18:20). I say we are responsible for our own sin and will be held accountable for it as the Tanakh teaches; it’s chrisitanity who claims G-d sent a son into this world to atone for sin; it’s not up to me to prove “G-d cannot send HIS son”, that belongs to you to prove HE did!

Where does it say God cannot reveal Himself through His Son?

One has to first believe G-d has a “special son” with HIM in heaven; since G-d NEVER spoke of this “special son” in the Tanakh, why would I or anyone believe there was one? G-d spoke with the heavenly host (angels) and consulted with them (Gen 1:26; Gen 11:7; Job 1-2; I Kings 22:19-22), but never with HIS “special son”?!?! Hmmm!

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

OBVIOUSLY!!!! Jecohiah had his kingship removed and the line of kings ended. Read Hosea 3:4-5 where G-d tells Israel they would be without a king until the end of days (that’s a good one for a later date). I never said the kingship was from one king to the next forever. The only stipulation G-d made in this promise was Solomon’s dynasty would be permanent and since lineages continue thru a biological process (not some pagan creation of a god impregnating a human woman), the true Messiah would have to be someone connected biologically to Solomon; NOT by adoption or thru another of David’s sons. Thus rendering the Jesus as a false messiah since his daddy was a spirit.

So “permanent dynasty” means an eternal king from David’s line, not an endless chain of earthly kings. The covenant is fulfilled in the Messiah, the final Davidic ruler who reigns forever.

How many sons have been born over the last 3500 years that are biologically connected to Solomon? You need to put it into a Hebraic mindset and not christianities. You’re almost there, let go of your religion and turn to G-d; HE’s waiting! It is freeing to not have to do mental gymnastics all the time to explain why you believe what you believe or to live under the shackles of religion, knowing it’s G-d and G-d alone who saves and forgives, and knowing you have a direct line to G-d and don’t need a “mediator” to get to HIM.

Stop and verify everything!

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure.

How did I know you were going to say it’s a riddle! Why do you believe it’s a riddle? What if there isn’t anything mysterious about the passage at all and it’s just Solomon using wisdom to express the power of G-d that no man possesses, no matter the level of power or intelligence they have.

Reading this passage we start with Agur speaking with two others and basically calls himself stupid. He then asks them four rhetorical questions; who has gone to heaven and back, who has gathered the wind in their hand, bound water in their coat, or has established the earth? Of course the only and obvious answer is G-d; only G-d can do all these things. Then the final question asks, “what is his name?” it’s not making the conclusion it’s G-d; it’s asking the two people what man can do these things and if there is someone who can, what’s his sons name. Since the answer is no human can, there is no son of this non-existent person, either.

You emphatically state “The ‘Son’ cannot be Israel or Solomon, because neither ascended to heaven, gathered the wind, wrapped the waters, nor established the earth” (noticed you capitalized Son to make it a proper noun when it’s not). Since you have heard these teaching of the son possibly being either Israel or Solomon, why do you reject these possibilities?

In Ex4:21-23 G-d explicitly states the people of Israel are HIS firstborn son; and throughout the Tanahk HE refers to Israel as a son; so reading the Proverbs passage and answering all the questions with G-d, wouldn’t Israel being the son fit? The same thing could apply to Solomon since G-d called him HIS son in I Chron 22:10, 28:6 and II Sam 7:14. What about Ps 89:20 where G-d calls David his firstborn? There are now three scriptural possibilities of who the son could be; now what?

Personally, I don’t think the “son” is a reference to Israel, Solomon, or David; they’re rhetorical questions that don’t require an answer because the answer is already known. Even Agur, who considers himself the dumbest of the dumb, knows the answer. Am I saying my thought is the absolute correct one, no; just a logical one. To say the son is the Jesus is interpretive because only the father performed the tasks and NOT the son; it only asks for the son’s name of the one who can, not that the son also possesses the same abilities.

Are there any passages in the Tanakh that say G-d has a “son” that HE will send to earth for the redemption of mankind’s sins?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

You didn’t answer this question:

So what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Who’s dynasty will be made permanent and who made the promise?

[Author]

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