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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 30 2010,11:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,20:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 29 2010,08:13) Pierre,
Interesting question. We will be perfect and will always do what the Father and Son ask.
Hi Kathi,I have to agree with Pierre on this one. It would seem that being immortal and having a heavenly body does not make one “perfect” and mean they obey all of God's commands. For Satan and a third of God's angels do not fit in with this reasoning.
I believe we are being perfected as we learn truth. But God doesn't want robots who can't possibly mess up. He wants faithful servants who know the rules completely and CHOOSE not to mess up.
He wants a bunch of little Jesus' running around heaven!
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I wouldn't equate 'perfect' with 'programmed.' We will be perfect, not robots. And we won't be a lot of 'little Jesus's' running around. God made us all unique and we will continue to be unique but even better, we will truly be what He meant for us to be and we will be perfect at it and perfect in character too. It is going to be awesome.
Hi Kathi,I don't like made up words like “eternal essence”, so I will bail out of that conversation.
But on the “perfect” thing………..do you think those who are made “perfect” will no longer have the capability of sinning?
I don't.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Regarding 'eternal essence:'
We find the term 'essence/nature' here:
The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.NASB ©
biblegateway Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Here is the Greek word that was translated as 'essence/nature:'
hupostasis
upostasiv hupostasis
Pronunciation:hoop-os'-tas-is
Origin:from a compound of 5259 and 2476
Reference:TDNT – 8:572,1237
PrtSpch:n f
In Greek:upostasei 2, upostasewv 2, upostasiv 1
In NET:confidence 3, being sure 1, essence 1
In AV:confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1
Count:5
Definition:1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
from a compound of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e.
(figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance
(objectively or subjectively):-confidence, confident, person,
substance.If the 'essence/nature' didn't always exist then any that have nature that didn't always exist cannot be God or be the source because something existed beforehand from which God's non-eternal nature/essence would have come from.
Can you see the importance of this?
Quote do you think those who are made “perfect” will no longer have the capability of sinning? I believe there will no longer be capability of sinning when we are made perfect.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2010,19:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 30 2010,11:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,20:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 29 2010,08:13) Pierre,
Interesting question. We will be perfect and will always do what the Father and Son ask.
Hi Kathi,I have to agree with Pierre on this one. It would seem that being immortal and having a heavenly body does not make one “perfect” and mean they obey all of God's commands. For Satan and a third of God's angels do not fit in with this reasoning.
I believe we are being perfected as we learn truth. But God doesn't want robots who can't possibly mess up. He wants faithful servants who know the rules completely and CHOOSE not to mess up.
He wants a bunch of little Jesus' running around heaven!
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I wouldn't equate 'perfect' with 'programmed.' We will be perfect, not robots. And we won't be a lot of 'little Jesus's' running around. God made us all unique and we will continue to be unique but even better, we will truly be what He meant for us to be and we will be perfect at it and perfect in character too. It is going to be awesome.
Hi Kathi,I don't like made up words like “eternal essence”, so I will bail out of that conversation.
But on the “perfect” thing………..do you think those who are made “perfect” will no longer have the capability of sinning?
I don't.
peace and love,
mike
Mikewe all will be made perfect at the end wen we have understand the rule of God ,
what it seems no understand herethis question I have ask to Kathi, but she does not respond yet.
all the understanding of Christ lays on that.
Pierre
WJ
my respond;;so according to the words spoken by Christ in ;; And he said to them all, “If any man will COME AFTER ME, let him DENY HIMSELF, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS daily, and FOLLOW ME”. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: “but WHOSOEVER WILL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR MY SAKE, the same shall save it”. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:23-26
WHAT IS HE REALY SAYING ;IF YOU WANT TO FOLLOW HIM YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT HE DOES,AND THAT IS APPLY Gods love ,Christ became the highest in all creation because he serve the most of all creation, the apostles are the second ones in high position after Christ, because they have drink the same cup. so practice the same godly love ,to perfection.
SO WE KNOW NOW THAT JESUS NEVER ASK ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO ,OUT OF LOVE FOR GOD ,AS PER JESUS EXAMPLE AND THE APOSTLES.
SO ;WJ; MY ANSWER TO YOU IS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I AM WILLING TO DIE,AND CHRIST AS SHOWN ME THE WAY.HOW TO DO IT.
AS I SAID WHAT YOU BELIEVE; worship =is what you believe ,and render your devotion to,
I RENDER MY DEVOTION TO GOD ,BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN HIS LOVE ,AND FOR THAT LOVE I WILL JOIN ANY OTHER TRUE CHRISTIANS TO ENCOURAGE ,STIMULATE,ECT.Pierre
======================================================================================For this cause I Paul, “THE PRISONER OF JESUS CHRIST” for you Gentiles, Eph 3:1
Paul, “A SERVANT (SLAVE) OF JESUS CHRIST”, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,Rom 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, “THE SERVANTS (SLAVES) OF JESUS CHRIST”, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Phil 1:1
Paul, “A PRISONER OF JESUS CHRIST”, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, Phm 1:1
Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also “A PRISONER OF JESUS CHRIST”. Phm 1:9
Phm 1:8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do,
Phm 1:9 yet I appeal to you on the basis of love. I then, as Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus—Simon Peter, “A SERVANT (SLAVE) AND AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST”, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1
Now would you care to answer the questions directly without spin as Mike just did?
• Now what is it in your description of worshipping the Father that you do not do to Jesus?
• Would you follow Jesus commands even if it meant you would have to die for his names sake?
• Are you a prisoner of Jesus Christ?
• Are you his Bondslave?
• Can you serve and bow down to anyone with that kind of devotion except God without violating the Mosaic law?They are simple yes and no questions!
WJ
================================================
Well this is your answer WJ.Pierre
WJ
this is part one;sorry it fliped on me,
I can not answer you as you ask, reason is your question are men made question and so do not reflect the understanding of scriptures. I NOW EXPLAIN,
Your questions are all quo related and so my explanation and view of understanding on scriptures will answer the question;The rule in heaven is LOVE and there is only one rule and so it is LOVE,
See your question could be center around that love from the point of view of men , this would be easy to answer but if we dig deeper we ask the question what is Godly LOVE ??To answer that question we have to know what God has done in the past, and what he does now, and what he will do in the future,
This in the outline of all things; God create the WORD and trough him and for him he create all things,
Wen things wen wrong ,Christ the first creation volunteered to come down to be sacrificed and put to dead,
But before he died during his ministry he showed his disciples to follow him and do the same thing has he did,
SO HE LAYED THE WAY FOR THE OTHERS TO FOLLOW IN THE WAY TO WORSHIP HIS FATHER,BY COPYING THE LOVE OF HIS FATHER THAT HE AS MADE IS DICIPLES KNOW,WHAT IS THE LOVE WE ALL SHOULD PRACTICE AS A DEVOTION TO GOD AND CHRIST ??
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”THIS RULE IS THE KEY TO LIVE A TRUE CHRISTIAN LIVE,
YOU MUST LIVE MORE FOR OTHERS THAN FOR YOURSELF,AND THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE SHOULD BE IN THE INTEREST OF ALL OR THE MOST,
This is the reason why Paul was a prisoner of Christ, not personally for Christ but for the love Of God that Christ thought him, the Love for God was very strong in Paul he would endure all things because that his the end result to be in Gods kingdom.
That sort of love will make us all perfect, this is pure holiness, this are the two commandments that Christ had called,
So wen a Christian becomes a servant to Christ,
he becomes in reality a servant of God by practicing the love of God trough Christ,Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,06:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 29 2010,06:19) His body was resurrected and the spirit was returned to it and the resurrected body is what was granted immortality. The pre-existing eternal essence of Christ did not die. The human essence of Christ died.
Hi Kathi,All I know is that Jesus died the same way other men die. All of our spirits go back to God. And all of our spirits will someday be returned. But Jesus said not all will “taste death” and Paul says Jesus “tasted death” for us all.
I think after Jesus, some went right from their mortal bodies to the immortal ones in heaven without waiting for the judgement day. Jesus was NOT one of those, for he definitely “tasted death”, so he was as dead as any other man can be.
But if you think Jesus always was immortal because God gave him back his spirit, then those of us who are raised to immortality could also say we were immortal from the beginning because only our bodies died, and our spirits remained alive with God until He gave them back to us.
Does this make sense? I'm kind of tired.
mike
Mike,
In Reference to Jesus Tasting Death…
Did he lay down his life? only to take it up again?
so he gave up his life to defeat death.
werent his last words “it is done” and he gave up his ghost?John 10
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.And did Jesus die because MAN Caused him to Die or that HE gave up his life?
Wasnt this required for he can have power over death?
Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And according to Revelations He has the keys to death and hades…….Jesus Is Immortal.
1 Corinthians 15
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus ChristThis chaper applys that Jesus is the Lord from Heaven, who overcomes DEATH and leaves death without the sting of sin which is found in the Law. Immortality is found in Jesus Christ by means that we will bear his image for he is the second adam the second heavenly man.
1 Timothy 6:16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:mikeboll64,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Mike,Quote Absolutely. But once a human being just like us, He would no longer possess the power to become God again, would He? And if He did possess that power, then He wasn't really a human being just like us, right? Because we human beings do not have the power to become God. That's enough of the philisophical stuff D. Let's debate scriptures.
And how would you know that God cant be Human and be the Supreme God that He is, in the very same time, with mixing or matching.
This is the power of limitation.
Here is a question Does God know everything?Quote Like he says D, how can YOU call him Lord and not do what he says? You keep mentioning John as if he did a good thing by worshipping an angel. John made a mistake that we all can learn from. It had to be embarrising for him to admit he did this stupid thing…….so why did he include those two mistakes in his Book? Because God inspired him to do so. Why? Because God knew that even as Christians, we might be led to make this same mistake with Jesus. So He nipped it in the bud by letting us know that John did a stupid thing and was told not to. The lesson was to remember to worship ONLY God, like the scriptures all teach – even if you are confronted with an awe inspiring being that you are totally “smitten” by. That is the lesson D. Learn it or don't. And Jesus never “denied worship” because Jesus was never worshipped. Unless you have some proof that he was?
I Didnt Mention John as if he did a Good thing, but its something you should understand that if this “great” leader/hero/rolemodel worshipped in Angel than so would you.
its as simple as that, if he failed than so wuld you in the very same manner.
What is there to learn from, we all would fail in the very same manner.So Now the Reason that John inserted his “mistake” is to show why we shouldnt worship Jesus? really?
what a twist………..
There isnt a way to learn this Mike, thats what im trying to get you to understand, is the fact is that if you were in the presence of such a being, you being human would worship it because your human.
When your looking at the Sun, could you not stand its gaze? you have to look away, and the closer you are, the more in awe you will be.oh gosh…… you and your Jesus was never worshipped.
Jesus is MORE than the angels, yet an ANGEL was worshipped, (which you dont deny) but yet you DENY that Jesus was NEVER worshipped.
That makes no SENSE what so ever.
How could you NOT worship Jesus, yet WORSHIP in ANGEL.
Do you see the contradiction here?Your stating: NOBODY has ever WORSHIPPED Jesus, everyone was just bowing to him to respect him as the Son Of God who is more powerful than the Angels
So John Never worshipped Jesus….
Yet the facts show that That John Worshipped an Angel (who is less than Jesus) Yet John and Peter wanted to make ALTERS for them when they were in the mountain of transfiguration and the many times people in the bible kissed his feet and followed him, DEVOTED to him.It makes NO SENSE, that the Apostle John who was supposed to follow what the Lord said to worship God ONLY and actually lived, dined, followed, and talked with Jesus, yet NEVER worshipped him.
AND witnessing Jesus Death and RESSURECTION, and after he received the Holy Spirit and did all the things he did at a very old age in the island of patmos within his visions of revelations, this Old Man who is full of wisdom finally decided to get “STUPID” and worship in Angel?
I highly doubt that John was stupid enough without an understandable reason to worship an Angel, AND I strognly believe that With ALL of Johns expierences i DOUBT that John would Worship an Angel rather than to WORSHIP Jesus who is greater.
If you DENY that Jesus was ever worshipped than you MUST deny that John worshipped an Angel.
Its either both or neither. If you pick one over the other than the result would be a contradiction.Quote Give it a shot and let's see what we learn from the experience. Or are you “scared”?
Dont you believe thats a bit “immature” for someone your age?
Im a Innocent Yound Man, that you want to challenge?
to whom do i owe the honor to?And yes really!
Quote Hmmmm…….just like Micah 5:4, these two scriptures seem to list Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO God. So when I say “God”, I mean “God Almighty”.
Here's some more, just so you can get a taste of what's coming if you accept the challenge.
Does God not have the Power to be Your Saviour and Father and God almighty all in the same time?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2010,07:25) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 26 2010,12:42) did you not study psalm 82?
Its simple, these gods will die like Men, there is a point Jesus was trying to Make.
Why do you think that D? What did Jesus say about that Psalm to the Jews? Was he teaching from what the Psalm itself was about, or only borrowing the “you are gods” part to make his point that is was apparently okay for God to call men “gods”, so why was it blasphemy for him to say he was God's Son?You are reading too much into what Jesus actually said to the Jews. He wasn't giving them a lesson about who was going to die and who wasn't. He was just pointing out that God Almighty at one time called mere mortal men “gods”, so where is the crime in saying he is God's Son?
mike
Actually your wrong.
He made an example that the scriptures cannot be broke, and the same scriptues SPEAK of Jesus, so how is it they cannot believe???
this is clarified by his demonstration of Works, and if he does not do his fathers work, than dont believe him.
but if he does why dont you?This is very clear that his whole point is about that he demonstrates that he is Righteous and True, so why cant you not believe he is the Son of God, by the same scriptures that speak of his coming.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2010,12:05) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 30 2010,09:12) Theo,
When the man crucified with jesus asked him to remember him when he came into his glory, What did Jesus mean when he said” Today, you will be with me in paradise”, not “when the dead awake”, but today? Peace-Mark
Hi MarkThat's another mistranslation. Jesus actually said, “TODAY I say to you – you will be with me in paradise”. Jesus didn't go to heaven for 43 more days after that, so was Jesus calling Hades a “paradise”?
Anyway, I'm moving your scriptures to a new thread. There we all will discuss them one scripture at a time. You will see many more mistranslations explained just like the one above.
You can join us there if you want. But I personally thank you for putting all of those “trinity proof texts” together. Now the rest of us can really bone up on scripture and language and translations and such.
I will call the thread, “Scriptures that prove Jesus is God”. I hope to see both you and Keith there.
peace and love,
mike
I do not play by your rules. You are very good at minceing translations, and argueing, but that doesn't make you right mikeboll. You, terrrica and Irene can profess that Jesus isn't God or born with God's personal spirit and identity all you want. IMO , you are racking up offenses and blasphemys and Jesus' grace won't work for you, for like the muslims, you take him for merely a prophet. I'm not stupid enough to get into an argueing contest with you . Its pointless. Like one of the points was Thomas' telling Jesus “My Lord and My God”, and like a good lawyer you explain it away and try to implant doubt, when it's black and white. My daughter has as much argueing power in her little finger then you have in your whole being, and I know better through much experience.There was a preachers wife not far from here that murdered her husband. As he slept, she got a shotgun and walked up to the bed and shot him in the back, killing him. Murder, cut and dry. Two star lawyers took the case “pro bono” for publicity, and got her down to manslaughter, and she went free shortly after, and got her kids back. Lawyering and argueing don't impress me. God doesn't think too fondly of them either.
Anyway, nobody knows absolutely where Jesus spirit went and why, it's beside the point. The point is he rose from the dead, and those who believe in him will share in that.
Kieth and Kathi, If you enjoy it, Y'all have fun. Love-Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 29 2010,21:24) God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.God is the only Saviour.
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:11To the only wise God our Saviour… Jude 1:12
God our Saviour. Titus 2:10
…we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10
God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18
…God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
…the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
…the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
–Acts 4:12…salvation… is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
–2 Timothy 2:10…captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
— Heb 2:10[Jesus]…author of eternal salvation…
— Heb 5:9God Jesus
God created the universe and earth by Himself.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
nto the Son he saith…Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10y him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth…all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
God Jesus
God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
…the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…John 1:14God Jesus
God is the first and the last.I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.Jesus said, “Fear not; I am the first and the last:” Revelation 1:17
God Jesus
God forgives sins.
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities… Psalm 103:2-3“[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?” Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus…said…”Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.” Mark 2:5God Jesus
God is our redeemer.
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
[T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ…gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14God Jesus
God is one.Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.I and my Father are one. John 10:30
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…All things were made by him…He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14
Jesus saith…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God has a Son.
[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.… [Jesus] said also that God was his Father… John 5:18
God Jesus
God is the Holy One
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
God Jesus
Only God is worshipped.
… Then saith Jesus unto him… Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him… Matthew 9:18And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
God Jesus
God is Messiah.
…unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder…and his name shall be called… The mighty God, The everlasting Father… Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26God Jesus
God is from everlasting.The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua [Jesus] is from everlasting.But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
God Jesus
Only God is glorified.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another… Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
God Jesus
God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:5
8God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD…who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16God is the Judge of the whole earth.
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2[Abraham to God]…Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22God has life in Himself.
[T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
God raises the dead.
[T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
[T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21——————————————————————————–
Conclusion…Jesus Christ is God
The scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, “You take the Bible literally. It's just myths.” I answer, “Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins.”
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Additional Verses
mikeangel: A truly beautiful overview of the truth of the Bible. Great Job.You have shown, what the gospel always said to me that to actually find God, you must: believe he is—and believer that he is a REWARDER of those who diligently seek for him.
Not a rewarder in the next life or the hereafter, NOW in this life we are in!!!
Search the scriptures for good news in Jesus and you will find it. When you find the good news of Jesus, IT WILL MAKE YOU FREE from the law of sin and death.
You said:
“Some liberal preacher will say to me, “You take the Bible literally. It's just myths.”Just take your stand in what God has shown you!!
It is true, satan comes immediately to kill, steal, and destroy the good news of Jesus. Well meaning(like Peter was when Jesus said get thee behind me satan) Bible thumpers and preachers, misguided with untruth, will attack your loving, kind, peacful truth and faith in Christ.
Just believe like the three Hebrew children of the o/t believed when the King said bow or you will burn in the super hot furnace….they said..”if it be so, but we will not bow!! TK
Tim,
Thanks, but to be honest, I searched this, copied it, and posted it. I believe every word, but I cannot take credit for composeing it. Blessings and love to you, hope all is well- Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 30 2010,21:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2010,12:05) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 30 2010,09:12) Theo,
When the man crucified with jesus asked him to remember him when he came into his glory, What did Jesus mean when he said” Today, you will be with me in paradise”, not “when the dead awake”, but today? Peace-Mark
Hi MarkThat's another mistranslation. Jesus actually said, “TODAY I say to you – you will be with me in paradise”. Jesus didn't go to heaven for 43 more days after that, so was Jesus calling Hades a “paradise”?
Anyway, I'm moving your scriptures to a new thread. There we all will discuss them one scripture at a time. You will see many more mistranslations explained just like the one above.
You can join us there if you want. But I personally thank you for putting all of those “trinity proof texts” together. Now the rest of us can really bone up on scripture and language and translations and such.
I will call the thread, “Scriptures that prove Jesus is God”. I hope to see both you and Keith there.
peace and love,
mike
I do not play by your rules. You are very good at minceing translations, and argueing, but that doesn't make you right mikeboll. You, terrrica and Irene can profess that Jesus isn't God or born with God's personal spirit and identity all you want. IMO , you are racking up offenses and blasphemys and Jesus' grace won't work for you, for like the muslims, you take him for merely a prophet. I'm not stupid enough to get into an argueing contest with you . Its pointless. Like one of the points was Thomas' telling Jesus “My Lord and My God”, and like a good lawyer you explain it away and try to implant doubt, when it's black and white. My daughter has as much argueing power in her little finger then you have in your whole being, and I know better through much experience.There was a preachers wife not far from here that murdered her husband. As he slept, she got a shotgun and walked up to the bed and shot him in the back, killing him. Murder, cut and dry. Two star lawyers took the case “pro bono” for publicity, and got her down to manslaughter, and she went free shortly after, and got her kids back. Lawyering and argueing don't impress me. God doesn't think too fondly of them either.
Anyway, nobody knows absolutely where Jesus spirit went and why, it's beside the point. The point is he rose from the dead, and those who believe in him will share in that.
Kieth and Kathi, If you enjoy it, Y'all have fun. Love-Mark
Mark! And you can believe all YOU want, but the truth is, that Jesus existed long before He became a man. Jehovah God is and always will be greater then Jesus. What you are doing is nothing new. There are those like YOU who will ignore plain written Scriptures. There is no trinity, and YOU worship in vain. These are not my words, but Scripture… And i never said that Jesus isn't God either. But He is not Almighty God. That is and always will be Jehovah God our LORD……i don't also believe that Jesus is a Prophet. He is the literal Son of God, while we are the adopted Son's of God. Notice that Jesus is Lord and Savior, but not LORD.
As far as where Jesus is now read thisJhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus went back where He was before the world began…..will your mind take this in, or are YOU again going to deny this….YOU see Jehovah God is a jealous God….He has none besides Him……Scriptures already given…..And I don't believe that I am stupid either, that is such nonsense talking…Also did I ever say that Jesus did not rise from the dead? NO. Wrong again….YOU really have to get your facts straight before you make a statement like that….And as far as Keith is concerned of course He would believe like you, He is a Pastor of this world. I am not a respecter of men, but of God….You can believe whatever you want to, it makes no difference to me…. Irene
I have my heros, First and foremost is God, and now Kieth is too. It's a jungle out there. My special prayers to Kieth. May God bless him and his church. Amen
Thanks to God and his word my facts are straight, as that list showing Jesus is God shows. MY LORD AND MY GOD. Peace- Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Dec. 01 2010,01:29) I have my heros, First and foremost is God, and now Kieth is too. It's a jungle out there. My special prayers to Kieth. May God bless him and his church. Amen Thanks to God and his word my facts are straight, as that list showing Jesus is God shows. MY LORD AND MY GOD. Peace- Mark
deny, deny, you are in denial….IreneIrene,
I inquired of you what you did to worship God. You stated that you took care of your own only.You said you belonged to the ww church of God ,but you left,and that no one worshiped correctly enough to suit you, so you do nothing. You said the poor and homeless were lazy and didn't deserve your help. The statement you just made about me doesn't mean much to me coming from someone who can say things like that. I love you-Mark
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 01 2010,06:43) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 29 2010,21:24) God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.God is the only Saviour.
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:11To the only wise God our Saviour… Jude 1:12
God our Saviour. Titus 2:10
…we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10
God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18
…God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
…the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
…the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
–Acts 4:12…salvation… is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
–2 Timothy 2:10…captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
— Heb 2:10[Jesus]…author of eternal salvation…
— Heb 5:9God Jesus
God created the universe and earth by Himself.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
nto the Son he saith…Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10y him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth…all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
God Jesus
God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
…the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…John 1:14God Jesus
God is the first and the last.I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.Jesus said, “Fear not; I am the first and the last:” Revelation 1:17
God Jesus
God forgives sins.
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities… Psalm 103:2-3“[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?” Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus…said…”Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.” Mark 2:5God Jesus
God is our redeemer.
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
[T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ…gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14God Jesus
God is one.Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.I and my Father are one. John 10:30
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…All things were made by him…He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14
Jesus saith…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God has a Son.
[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.… [Jesus] said also that God was his Father… John 5:18
God Jesus
God is the Holy One
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
God Jesus
Only God is worshipped.
… Then saith Jesus unto him… Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him… Matthew 9:18And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
God Jesus
God is Messiah.
…unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder…and his name shall be called… The mighty God, The everlasting Father… Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26God Jesus
God is from everlasting.The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua [Jesus] is from everlasting.But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
God Jesus
Only God is glorified.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another… Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
God Jesus
God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD…who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16God is the Judge of the whole earth.
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2[Abraham to God]…Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22God has life in Himself.
[T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
God raises the dead.
[T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
[T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21——————————————————————————–
Conclusion…Jesus Christ is God
The scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, “You take the Bible literally. It's just myths.” I answer, “Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins.”
——————————————————————————–
Additional Verses
mikeangel: A truly beautiful overview of the truth of the Bible. Great Job.You have shown, what the gospel always said to me that to actually find God, you must: believe he is—and believer that he is a REWARDER of those who diligently seek for him.
Not a rewarder in the next life or the hereafter, NOW in this life we are in!!!
Search the scriptures for good news in Jesus and you will find it. When you find the good news of Jesus, IT WILL MAKE YOU FREE from the law of sin and death.
You said:
“Some liberal preacher will say to me, “You take the Bible literally. It's just myths.”Just take your stand in what God has shown you!!
It is true, satan comes immediately to kill, steal, and destroy the good news of Jesus. Well meaning(like Peter was when Jesus said get thee behind me satan) Bible thumpers and preachers, misguided with untruth, will attack your loving, kind, peacful truth and faith in Christ.
Just believe like the three Hebrew children of the o/t believed when the King said bow or you will burn in the super hot furnace….they said..”if it be so, but we will not bow!! TK
TK and Markif you believe that Christ is God the father ,you have not come to know the only son of God,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,20:05) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 30 2010,09:12) Theo,
When the man crucified with jesus asked him to remember him when he came into his glory, What did Jesus mean when he said” Today, you will be with me in paradise”, not “when the dead awake”, but today? Peace-Mark
Hi MarkThat's another mistranslation. Jesus actually said, “TODAY I say to you – you will be with me in paradise”. Jesus didn't go to heaven for 43 more days after that, so was Jesus calling Hades a “paradise”?
Hi MikeActually that is the correct translation found in every major translation on BlueletterBible.org.
It is the NWT that once again corrupts the meaning of the text.
Strongs states that one of the definitions for “paradise” is…
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise SourceThis article may help to clear up some of the confusion…
And this leads me to my first observation about JW interpretation: JWs often assume that if their translation is grammatically possible, it cannot be criticized. More generally, JWs seek to justify the interpretation that fits their doctrine instead of seeking to know the interpretation which best fits the text. But there is more to interpreting the Bible correctly (or any other text for that matter) than coming up with a grammatically possible translation. In the case of Luke 23:43, there are other considerations which decisively prove the usual translation correct and the NWT rendering wrong.
“AMEN I SAY TO YOU”
The words “Truly I tell you” are more literally translated “Amen I say to you” (Greek: amen soi lego). This is an introductory expression or formula Jesus used only when introducing a truth that is very important and perhaps hard to believe. (In the Gospel of John, it is “Amen, amen I say to you.”) In its form and usage it is rather like the Old English expression, “Hear ye!”An even more appropriate parallel is the Old Testament expression, “Thus says the Lord.” This suggests that “Amen I say to you today” would be just as unlikely an expression as “Hear ye today!” or “Thus says the Lord today” would be.
It is highly significant that out of the 74 times the expression occurs in the Bible, the NWT places a break immediately after it 73 times; Luke 23:43 is the only exception. (Most translations follow this pattern in all 74 instances.) These breaks are placed in one of two ways. In 10 cases, the NWT has the word “that” immediately after the expression, so that the text reads, “Truly I tell you that…” (e.g., Matt. 5:18; 16:28; Mark 3:28; Luke 4:24). In 63 cases, the NWT inserts a comma immediately after the expression and capitalizes the following word (e.g., Matt. 5:26; 26:13,21,34; Mark 8:12; 14:9,18,25,30; Luke 11:51; 21:32; John 1:51; 21:18).
Unless there is overwhelming evidence from the context that Luke 23:43 is an exception to the above pattern, it should be translated according to Jesus' normal usage of the expression. This leads me to my second observation (related to the first): JWs usually interpret a biblical text deductively rather than inductively. That is, they usually base their interpretation on what they have already concluded must be true (“deductive” reasoning) rather than examining all of the relevant material in Scripture before drawing a conclusion (“inductive” reasoning). Source
So Mark is right.
WJ
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
Pierre, Jesus is Jesus, and he is the word made flesh , and the word was God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
He was from everlasting with the father, before the world was made, and came into this world through Mary. His spirit was God's spirit. They are one, but three. (they are of one accord).
If they are 3 but 1, then eachs number would be 333. 333+333+333=999, Gods complete number. Upside down gives you satans number 666, imo
Like Love-evoL, live-evil,(opposites)
Quote (mikeangel @ Dec. 01 2010,14:08) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 Pierre, Jesus is Jesus, and he is the word made flesh , and the word was God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
He was from everlasting with the father, before the world was made, and came into this world through Mary. His spirit was God's spirit. They are one, but three. (they are of one accord).
Markthe only thing i have notice with you is that you know what you want to know,it does not matter if it is true scriptures or not;
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.looks like you see what you want to see;For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
so what you want to see is a lie.
wen it does not fit you you inventing it.Pierre
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