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In a bizarre twist, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses actually share the same theological argument in allowing worship of creatures.
“Mariolatry” is derived from two words: “Mariam” [Mary], and latria or latreuo [divine worship]. Both latria or latreuo are different forms of the same Greek word and they are without exception used in reference to divine worship, or worship in the highest sense.
While Jehovah's Witnesses say Jesus, the creature, can be worshipped, but not with the highest form of “latreuo” worship, Catholics say the virgin Mary, the creature, can be worshipped, but not with the highest form of “latreuo” worship. The argument is identical.
Now here is the twist: When Jehovah's Witnesses accuse Roman Catholics of worshipping the virgin mother, Catholics respond, “We Catholics do not offer “latreuo” to the Mother of Jesus and therefore cannot be accused of Mariolatry. (worship of Mary)
Jehovah's Witnesses go to great lengths to show that Catholics indeed to offer divine worship to Mary, in spite of Catholic objections.
Yet when Trinitarians made the identical argument to Jehovah's Witnesses, in regard to the worship of Jesus in the highest sense, they deny it.
So in utter hypocrisy, Jehovah's Witnesses viciously accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, then borrow the Catholic argument for themselves in their defense that Jesus is worshipped, but not in the highest sense!
By Steve RuddThe argument is baseless – because there is a serious lack of understanding when looking at the Father and the Son… Yahweh, YHWH or Jehovah was NOT the Father – The New Testament has this to say about the Father…
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] [ Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son] who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.yet… many saw Yahweh in the OT – and knew Him – consider Isaiah and the prophets…
The Father wasn't revealed at all until the Son revealed Him – creating confusion with the minds of men because Yahweh and Jesus are one in the same – and the God of heaven and earth because the Father gave the Son the authority…
When Yahweh professed there is no other God other than Him, He was speaking the truth, because the Father – by His word to the Son – was not available to us as 'god'. Jesus opened the door to us to love the Father in the Spirit of truth… Trinity diminishes our ability to grow closer to the Lord, though it doesn't prevent us from loving Jesus, thank God.
Quote (Guest @ July 20 2005,04:35) In a bizarre twist, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses actually share the same theological argument in allowing worship of creatures.
“Mariolatry” is derived from two words: “Mariam” [Mary], and latria or latreuo [divine worship]. Both latria or latreuo are different forms of the same Greek word and they are without exception used in reference to divine worship, or worship in the highest sense.
While Jehovah's Witnesses say Jesus, the creature, can be worshipped, but not with the highest form of “latreuo” worship, Catholics say the virgin Mary, the creature, can be worshipped, but not with the highest form of “latreuo” worship. The argument is identical.
Now here is the twist: When Jehovah's Witnesses accuse Roman Catholics of worshipping the virgin mother, Catholics respond, “We Catholics do not offer “latreuo” to the Mother of Jesus and therefore cannot be accused of Mariolatry. (worship of Mary)
Jehovah's Witnesses go to great lengths to show that Catholics indeed to offer divine worship to Mary, in spite of Catholic objections.
Yet when Trinitarians made the identical argument to Jehovah's Witnesses, in regard to the worship of Jesus in the highest sense, they deny it.
So in utter hypocrisy, Jehovah's Witnesses viciously accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, then borrow the Catholic argument for themselves in their defense that Jesus is worshipped, but not in the highest sense!
By Steve Rudd
Thanks for your post.Why do people put their faith in denominations at all? By doing so they are surely putting their trust in man.
Quote (Christofer @ July 19 2005,11:56) The argument is baseless – because there is a serious lack of understanding when looking at the Father and the Son… Yahweh, YHWH or Jehovah was NOT the Father – The New Testament has this to say about the Father… John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] [ Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son] who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.yet… many saw Yahweh in the OT – and knew Him – consider Isaiah and the prophets…
The Father wasn't revealed at all until the Son revealed Him – creating confusion with the minds of men because Yahweh and Jesus are one in the same – and the God of heaven and earth because the Father gave the Son the authority…
When Yahweh professed there is no other God other than Him, He was speaking the truth, because the Father – by His word to the Son – was not available to us as 'god'. Jesus opened the door to us to love the Father in the Spirit of truth… Trinity diminishes our ability to grow closer to the Lord, though it doesn't prevent us from loving Jesus, thank God.
Hi,
Isaiah did not see God. He saw a vision of God in chapter 6.1f” In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted. with the train of His robe filling the temple..”
There is no suggestion that he was taken to heaven to see God here.
It is interesting that Jesus said
“No man has seen The Father except the one who is from God”He says no man has seen God but also is claiming he has seen God. We know that this was not as a man as that is not recorded so it is evidence he has given here of his life before his incarnation-life with the Father as the only begotten Son of God.
Quote (liljon @ July 19 2005,22:56) Jesus accepted worship himself and Even Angels worship him
Hi,
We need to first of all learn from the words of the Master and his disciples.To use derived information techniques to discover possible truths are not equivalent to teachings themselves.For example to look at scripture and see that it says Jesus is “worshipped” or accepts “worship” does not have the same relevance as his teaching that we should worship the Father.
It ignores the teaching that he gave about the nature of true worship in Jn 4. The fact that some fell at his feet also does not fit into the definition he gave about true worship being in spirit and in truth.
Hi Nick
Isaiah 6:1- Lord ='Adonay'… according to Strong's – meaning 1) my lord, lord
a) of men
b) of God
2) Lord – title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverenceIsaiah 6:3 – using the World English Bible – which uses the sacred name of Yahweh, identifies the 'Lord'
6:3 One called to another, and said, “Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!”
While it is true that this was indeed a vision – it was a vision that Isaiah saw Yahweh in.
For those interested in the World English Bible you can check it out online at christianparadise.com
He says no man has seen God but also is claiming he has seen God. We know that this was not as a man as that is not recorded so it is evidence he has given here of his life before his incarnation-life with the Father as the only begotten Son of God.
I agree – Jesus made that abundantly clear.
I am following Jesus when I say no man has seen the Father. I am using that teaching to see that Yahweh could NOT be the Father. I also know who was given authority over the heaven and the earth, thus making Him 'God'.
I find it amazing you ignore the vision of Isaiah – simply because Isaiah wasn't taken 'to Heaven' to meet the Father. I am sure every scripture that declares man saw Yahweh would be ignored by you in the same manner… but true sight goes beyond what the eyes can see. The Father is love – yet many times in the OT – the vengeful Yahweh doesn't seem to fit the character of the all loving Father…
Don't you see?
Hi c,
You teach about God from your own insights instead of from the Word. You have told us you trust your own inspiration ahead of the Word. By denying scripture you have thrown away the measure and the check points for your inspiration.
You thus force us to choose between following your insights or the Word of God and that choice is not hard.Quote You teach about God from your own insights instead of from the Word. You have told us you trust your own inspiration ahead of the Word. By denying scripture you have thrown away the measure and the check points for your inspiration. I believe you have misunderstood something here, my friend. First – I don't teach about God – I share what I have been taught – not from my own insight – but from the insight I have been given by God. If I was following my own insight – believe me – I would be a modern Christian in every sense of the word, for it is easier to walk the wide road than the narrow.
I don't mind disagreeing with someone –
as the Father gives each man his own measure of faith –Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
-and each man must work out his own salvation…
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,but between your presumptuous judgment and accusations – one can only ponder your motives.
The fruits you have repeatedly displayed in these forums – both to me and others – say a lot.
God bless.
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.”Hi c,
Working out your own salvation is not saving yourself. The Salvation we are freely given in Christ is only fully received when Jesus returns. We have the Spirit now as the downpayment or pledge. We have roles to fulfill in the body serving the Master till he returns.But there is only one Way, one faith, one baptism, one Spirit and one hope to which we are called.
Quote (Christofer @ July 20 2005,11:30) Quote You teach about God from your own insights instead of from the Word. You have told us you trust your own inspiration ahead of the Word. By denying scripture you have thrown away the measure and the check points for your inspiration. I believe you have misunderstood something here, my friend. First – I don't teach about God – I share what I have been taught – not from my own insight – but from the insight I have been given by God. If I was following my own insight – believe me – I would be a modern Christian in every sense of the word, for it is easier to walk the wide road than the narrow.
I don't mind disagreeing with someone –
as the Father gives each man his own measure of faith –Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
-and each man must work out his own salvation…
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,but between your presumptuous judgment and accusations – one can only ponder your motives.
The fruits you have repeatedly displayed in these forums – both to me and others – say a lot.
God bless.
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.”
Hic,
If we were soothsayers we would never do anything but comfort and encourage but we serve a Master who demands we cling to his teachings. But popularity is not our goal as the gospel is too important.If someone comes bearing another message we warn and cajole and then leave the response to that person. Should they choose not to listen then God will still be alongside that person helping and encouraging him to find the right path.
Your salvation is our aim but the path you have taken is not a safe one. Bless you.
Quote (Christofer @ July 20 2005,10:55) I am following Jesus when I say no man has seen the Father. I am using that teaching to see that Yahweh could NOT be the Father. I also know who was given authority over the heaven and the earth, thus making Him 'God'. I find it amazing you ignore the vision of Isaiah – simply because Isaiah wasn't taken 'to Heaven' to meet the Father. I am sure every scripture that declares man saw Yahweh would be ignored by you in the same manner… but true sight goes beyond what the eyes can see. The Father is love – yet many times in the OT – the vengeful Yahweh doesn't seem to fit the character of the all loving Father…
Don't you see?
Hi c,
We do not “use” scripture. Scripture reveals itself to us if we approach it with the respect it deserves as the words of God written through men under the power of the Spirit.Neither do we judge God.
Hi ,
Coll 3.16f
“Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God”This is true worship. Loving the Word, living in Christ, and letting the Spirit help us in our own temples to praise and thank our God.
Hi, Rom 15.5f
” Now may the God who gives perseverence and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice GLORIFY THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS?
THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS. LET’S LOOK AT THEM.
At HEBREWS 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB, and others.
New World Translation (NW) says: “do obeisance to.”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says: “let them bow before him.”At MATTHEW 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ.
Other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).The Greek word rendered “worship” is proskynéo, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)
The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.NOTICE THOSE LAST FEW EXAMPLES AND CONSIDER WHAT THIS MEANS.
Let’s look at one more example. It’s an example of what happens when we insert the word “worship” where it clearly doesn’t belong–we get the wrong meaning.MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.OTHER GREEK WORDS associated with worship are drawn from eusebéo, threskeúo, and sébomai. The word eusebéo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeúo comes the noun threskeía, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sébomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebázomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sébasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theoś, God. These are theosebeś, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosébeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10)
THE HEBREW
One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (`avadh́) basically means “serve.” (Ge 14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7.Hishtachawah́ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2)
Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11),
the high priest (1Sa 2:36),
a prophet (2Ki 2:15),
or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10),
to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19),
or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2).
Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7)
Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.)
When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6)
Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.FROM THE ABOVE EXAMPLES IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS HEBREW TERM OF ITSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELIGIOUS SENSE OR SIGNIFY WORSHIP.
Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16)Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.
The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.
As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether proskynéo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of relig
ious worship.
Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1)
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ACTION OF THOSE OF “THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN” WHO ARE MADE TO “COME AND DO OBEISANCE” BEFORE THE FEET OF CHRISTIANS IS CLEARLY NOT WORSHIP. (Re 3:9.) Yet, some Bible’s translate it as “worship.” Indiscriminately translating these words as “worship” is wrong.HERE IS THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, THE POINT OF THIS POST:
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskynéo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38.While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.
On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God.
PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11
“. . . so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.)Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskynéo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah́ and proskynéo.
I think that covers it.
Actually, one more thing. The bottom line is this: If you believe that Jesus is God Almighty, then you will believe the the context in these scriptures demands that those words be translated “worship” with respect to Jesus.
But the scriptures discussed above do not in themselves show that Jesus should be worshiped. They seem to indicate that only God should be worshiped. (And if you believe that Jesus is God, you will believe that Jesus should be worshiped)
BUT YOU CAN'T USE THESE SCRIPTURES TO PROVE ANYTHING IN THIS REGARD.David.
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