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Irene,
I love you sister. We have been all around our views on scripture and how it shapes our views. We at one time came to the conclusion that neither of us is perfect, and when Jesus comes he will make everything right. It won't be me saying to you “I told you so” or vice versa. It won't matter. We will be with God because we believe we are saved by Jesus and what he did on the cross to forgive us, because we believe he came into the world to save us as perfect sacrifice, born to die and conquer death.
That being said, let me share something with you. I dropped out of collage as a junior when my girlfriend got pregnant and started painting. I made a decent living, and things were o.k. The first Christmas she attempted suicide over an argument she started. Over the next 15 years she attempted several more times, getting very close several times. To make a long story short, when she started to physically fight with my daughters and trash every holiday I filed for divorce, and she did it for real. To say the least, I was trashed, alone, and broken. I like to shoot pool, and started to hang out in the bars looking for someone. (stupid me) When I would find someone with a little goodness, I would go steady and think”this is the one”, only to find out things were problibly going to end up the same. I would freak and run. This happened over and over for a year. Finally I just Prayed reallllyhard “God send me someone who won't hurt me or cheat on me that loves you and will be good for me”.. Well, doing a remodel, I met the housekeeper of a large estate, she had a great work ethic and I could tell was a good person. Her husband had abandoned her. A few weeks after I had finished the job the owners told her that they were taking her out for dinner and she could bring someone, and she asked me. I could feel her spirit, and liked her alot, and knew she was who God was sending. THEN After dinner, talking to her about God, I KNEW she was the one. I thought about her 99% of the time that next week, and we went out again. Thats when she told me that #1 She was southern baptist and #2 She had three teenage daughters, paired with my 2 would be 5+her would be 6 women in one house. With all thier issues from abandonment and the mix of faiths, was a recipe for a hormone holocaust. I prayed real hard. I said “God, you have to be kidding”. He said “No, I'm not, they need you and you have more growing to do”.
That brings me to my point. The very first ground rule I made was that we would not mix the kids up in faith. We would each stay in our respective churches. We would all understand that we believe in Jesus as Gods son and savior, and we would not discuss different concepts. (I had the authority to there). As far as faith goes, there was no battle royals over that. There were bloodbaths on the bathroom and who got what. There were even arguements on who got the most cheese on their taco. Emotional canabalism. But not faith.
My only problem is my wife is alot like you sometimes. When she tells me something, if I do not agree it is because I am not listening, not that I could be right or have a differant view. You show me a few scriptures and say the trinity does not exist, and wonder why I don't agree with you and leave the catholic church. Please understand, I am as grounded in my beliefs as you are, and the scriptures I read and quote are just as valid as yours. Lets just leave it in what I tried to do in my house-We believe in Jesus as son and savior, and leave it on common ground. Humbly and Sincerely with much love- Mark
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,09:26) theodorej, I was wondering if these 2 Psalms 47 and 48 were Messianic, I will have to look further but I saw a commentary indicating that they are talking about Jesus.
Psalm 47
God the King of the Earth.
For the choir director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.
1O (A)clap your hands, all peoples;
(B)Shout to God with the voice of joy.
2For the LORD Most High is to be ©feared,
A (D)great King over all the earth.
3He (E)subdues peoples under us
And nations under our feet.
4He chooses our inheritance for us,
The glory of Jacob whom He loves. Selah.
5God has ascended with a shout,
The LORD, with the sound of a trumpet.
6Sing praises to God, sing praises;
Sing praises to our King, sing praises.
7For God is the King of all the earth;
Sing praises with a skillful psalm.
8God reigns over the nations,
God sits on His holy throne.
9The princes of the people have assembled themselves as the people of the God of Abraham,
For the shields of the earth belong to God;
He is highly exalted.
Psalm 48The Beauty and Glory of Zion.
A Song; a Psalm of the sons of Korah.
1Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised,
In the city of our God, His holy mountain.
2Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion in the far north,
The city of the great King.
3God, in her palaces,
Has made Himself known as a stronghold.
4For, lo, the kings assembled themselves,
They passed by together.
5They saw it, then they were amazed;
They were terrified, they fled in alarm.
6Panic seized them there,
Anguish, as of a woman in childbirth.
7With the east wind
You break the ships of Tarshish.
8As we have heard, so have we seen
In the city of the LORD of hosts, in the city of our God;
God will establish her forever. Selah.
9We have thought on Your lovingkindness, O God,
In the midst of Your temple.
10As is Your name, O God,
So is Your praise to the ends of the earth;
Your right hand is full of righteousness.
11Let Mount Zion be glad,
Let the daughters of Judah rejoice
Because of Your judgments.
12Walk about Zion and go around her;
Count her towers;
13Consider her ramparts;
Go through her palaces,
That you may tell it to the next generation.
14For such is God,
Our God forever and ever;
He will guide us until death.Do you understand these Psalms as being about the Messiah?
Thanks theodorej!
Greetings Kathi…..When I speak of Apostolic Christianity this is an aged term that describes what we would recognize as messianic Jewery today…The Psalms were written by the quentessential messianic Jew.. .King David…the beginning of the progenery of Jesus and a man after Gods' own heart….King David was a worldly man who sinned greviously and sought forgivness in a humble sincere and contrite way as so described in many of his psalms…The messiah Jesus will rule from the throne of david and establish his government on this earth….All the Psalms have a messianic message by virtue of their author…Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 15 2010,21:50) Irene, I love you sister. We have been all around our views on scripture and how it shapes our views. We at one time came to the conclusion that neither of us is perfect, and when Jesus comes he will make everything right. It won't be me saying to you “I told you so” or vice versa. It won't matter. We will be with God because we believe we are saved by Jesus and what he did on the cross to forgive us, because we believe he came into the world to save us as perfect sacrifice, born to die and conquer death.
That being said, let me share something with you. I dropped out of collage as a junior when my girlfriend got pregnant and started painting. I made a decent living, and things were o.k. The first Christmas she attempted suicide over an argument she started. Over the next 15 years she attempted several more times, getting very close several times. To make a long story short, when she started to physically fight with my daughters and trash every holiday I filed for divorce, and she did it for real. To say the least, I was trashed, alone, and broken. I like to shoot pool, and started to hang out in the bars looking for someone. (stupid me) When I would find someone with a little goodness, I would go steady and think”this is the one”, only to find out things were problibly going to end up the same. I would freak and run. This happened over and over for a year. Finally I just Prayed reallllyhard “God send me someone who won't hurt me or cheat on me that loves you and will be good for me”.. Well, doing a remodel, I met the housekeeper of a large estate, she had a great work ethic and I could tell was a good person. Her husband had abandoned her. A few weeks after I had finished the job the owners told her that they were taking her out for dinner and she could bring someone, and she asked me. I could feel her spirit, and liked her alot, and knew she was who God was sending. THEN After dinner, talking to her about God, I KNEW she was the one. I thought about her 99% of the time that next week, and we went out again. Thats when she told me that #1 She was southern baptist and #2 She had three teenage daughters, paired with my 2 would be 5+her would be 6 women in one house. With all thier issues from abandonment and the mix of faiths, was a recipe for a hormone holocaust. I prayed real hard. I said “God, you have to be kidding”. He said “No, I'm not, they need you and you have more growing to do”.
That brings me to my point. The very first ground rule I made was that we would not mix the kids up in faith. We would each stay in our respective churches. We would all understand that we believe in Jesus as Gods son and savior, and we would not discuss different concepts. (I had the authority to there). As far as faith goes, there was no battle royals over that. There were bloodbaths on the bathroom and who got what. There were even arguements on who got the most cheese on their taco. Emotional canabalism. But not faith.
My only problem is my wife is alot like you sometimes. When she tells me something, if I do not agree it is because I am not listening, not that I could be right or have a differant view. You show me a few scriptures and say the trinity does not exist, and wonder why I don't agree with you and leave the catholic church. Please understand, I am as grounded in my beliefs as you are, and the scriptures I read and quote are just as valid as yours. Lets just leave it in what I tried to do in my house-We believe in Jesus as son and savior, and leave it on common ground. Humbly and Sincerely with much love- Mark
Hi Mark! That is quit a story, to say the least. It is also interesting, that our Son also left College and married a Lady that He got pregnant….i had advised Him not to marry Her, but He would not listen to me. Today he is divorced from His second wife. He goes to a Baptist Church also….He met another Lady and they are talking marriage…I am thinking Oh, no…..I knew when He married His second wife, that it would not last. I also believe that with Debbie, His maybe third wife….I don't say anything any more. He is an adult and responsible for Himself…So I will agree now that I will not say anything to you about the trinity again…..You have a nice Day….Peace IreneIrene,
Thanks. Also alll you can do is pray for your kids (son) and leave the rest up to God. My daughter is really ripping me up, but like you I say nothing and pray for her and love her unconditionally, and the rest is between her and God.Peace-Mark
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2010,11:26) Mark,
If I want to worship the Father in spirit and truth then I see Him as a God who has an 'image' not as a God without an 'image.' The Son is that image. In truth God is not imageless. His image briefly appeared on earth under the name of Jehovah and became flesh as Jehovah Saves (Yeshua).
Hey Kathi;I believe what you posted here, that the son was the image of the father. We will never fully understand God. We can discuss it though. Isn't it funny that God would not let Moses see his face? When Moses asked to see it he put him in a cleft of a rock and said he would pass, and he could see his glory, but not his face. He said “no man sees mee and lives” Also, why couldn't the holy spirit decend until after Jesus Assended? We will know oneday. Shimmer is right. Love is the point. It says “God is Love” somewhere. I'll try to “lightenup”
Peace and Love- MarkHi Mark:
No, I do not worship Jesus as God. There is only “One God”.
When you quote John 1, “and the Word was God”. Hebrews 1 states that in this last day God has spoken to humanity through his Son. It is this Word that Jesus obeyed.
Jesus is the “express image of God's person” and states that when “we have seen him we have seen the Father”. We see the Father through the works of obedience Jesus did to God's Word, and so, this is what the scripture means “the Word was God”. Jesus also states in John 4 that “God is a spirit”. In 1 John there is a scripture that states that “God is love”. In John 6 Jesus states that the Words that he speaks “they are spirit and they are life”. It is that spirit, the Word of God, that Jesus obeyed that reflects God's character.
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Quote John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Quote 1 John 4:16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him Quote John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life Quote 1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Quote John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus said that we should honor him as we honor the Father who sent him, and so, yes, Jesus is worthy of all honor, praise, and glory. When I obey him, I am obeying God, but no, I don't worship him as God.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mark,
Usually good to lightenup every once in a while!Love is key, truth is also key, the Bible says that love rejoices with the truth.
1 John 3:18
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
NASUTruth sets us free to love more, don't you think?
Ps 90:12
12 So teach us to number our days, That we may present to You a heart of wisdom.
NASUProv 3:13-19
13 How blessed is the man who finds wisdom And the man who gains understanding.
14 For her profit is better than the profit of silver And her gain better than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than jewels; And nothing you desire compares with her.
16 Long life is in her right hand; In her left hand are riches and honor.
17 Her ways are pleasant ways And all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who hold her fast.
19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens.
NASUSo our pursuit of wisdom is a very honorable, beneficial thing, look as all the benefits in Proverbs about wisdom and understanding…no one should be belittled who seek it as if it were a hidden treasure. What do you think? Don't you think that love encourages someone to seek wisdom and gain understanding? I probably seem kinda random here but your post sent me on this path…thanks!
The reason the Holy Spirit didn't come till after Jesus died was because the debt (sacrifice) had to be paid in order for us to be returned to God, when we have the Spirit, we have the Father and the Son. imo.
Hi Mark,
No I do not worship Jesus. And you have very adeptly pointed out to Kathi that if she doesn't think Jesus is God Almighty, then she worships him against what the scriptures teach.
I've got a better translation of John 1:1 for you:
John 1:1 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.If you would like to discuss it further, check out the John 1:1-3 thread.
peace and love,
mikeMark,
you asked:Quote Isn't it funny that God would not let Moses see his face? When Moses asked to see it he put him in a cleft of a rock and said he would pass, and he could see his glory, but not his face. He said “no man sees mee and lives” Yes, it is funny, God is soooo mysterious. It is also said that with Moses, God spoke face to face and also that Moses had seen His form. So many things to learn about and study…everyday we can find something new if we seek after it.
Also, I had the though today that we would have to dissect God to only worship the Father apart from the Son. It would be like having to separate the radiance from the glory, the image from the person, the word from the thought. The Father and Son just go together and I believe that the Father means for us to worship Him with His Son and to see Him as part of Himself in a wonderful mysterious way.
Mike,
And you have very adeptly pointed out to Kathi that if she doesn't think Jesus is God Almighty, then she worships him against what the scriptures teach.But Kathi does think that Jesus is who His Father is as the Son and image of the Father. If you follow your logic then you shouldn't even honor the Son for that would go against the commandment that you claim worshipping Him would go against.
Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 15 2010,06:25) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,09:26) theodorej, I was wondering if these 2 Psalms 47 and 48 were Messianic, I will have to look further but I saw a commentary indicating that they are talking about Jesus.
Psalm 47
God the King of the Earth.
For the choir director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.
1O (A)clap your hands, all peoples;
(B)Shout to God with the voice of joy.
2For the LORD Most High is to be ©feared,
A (D)great King over all the earth.
3He (E)subdues peoples under us
And nations under our feet.
4He chooses our inheritance for us,
The glory of Jacob whom He loves. Selah.
5God has ascended with a shout,
The LORD, with the sound of a trumpet.
6Sing praises to God, sing praises;
Sing praises to our King, sing praises.
7For God is the King of all the earth;
Sing praises with a skillful psalm.
8God reigns over the nations,
God sits on His holy throne.
9The princes of the people have assembled themselves as the people of the God of Abraham,
For the shields of the earth belong to God;
He is highly exalted.
Psalm 48The Beauty and Glory of Zion.
A Song; a Psalm of the sons of Korah.
1Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised,
In the city of our God, His holy mountain.
2Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion in the far north,
The city of the great King.
3God, in her palaces,
Has made Himself known as a stronghold.
4For, lo, the kings assembled themselves,
They passed by together.
5They saw it, then they were amazed;
They were terrified, they fled in alarm.
6Panic seized them there,
Anguish, as of a woman in childbirth.
7With the east wind
You break the ships of Tarshish.
8As we have heard, so have we seen
In the city of the LORD of hosts, in the city of our God;
God will establish her forever. Selah.
9We have thought on Your lovingkindness, O God,
In the midst of Your temple.
10As is Your name, O God,
So is Your praise to the ends of the earth;
Your right hand is full of righteousness.
11Let Mount Zion be glad,
Let the daughters of Judah rejoice
Because of Your judgments.
12Walk about Zion and go around her;
Count her towers;
13Consider her ramparts;
Go through her palaces,
That you may tell it to the next generation.
14For such is God,
Our God forever and ever;
He will guide us until death.Do you understand these Psalms as being about the Messiah?
Thanks theodorej!
Greetings Kathi…..When I speak of Apostolic Christianity this is an aged term that describes what we would recognize as messianic Jewery today…The Psalms were written by the quentessential messianic Jew.. .King David…the beginning of the progenery of Jesus and a man after Gods' own heart….King David was a worldly man who sinned greviously and sought forgivness in a humble sincere and contrite way as so described in many of his psalms…The messiah Jesus will rule from the throne of david and establish his government on this earth….All the Psalms have a messianic message by virtue of their author…
Hi theodorej,
Thanks for your reply. Would you say that in this Psalm, that the Messiah is called 'God' and 'Lord?'Ah, but we are specifically told to honor him. And we even know that all knees will bow to our King.
Now, if only we were told to worship him, I'd be on board with you. But since we have very clear and explicite orders about who to worship, I will follow my orders like a good soldier.
mike
But Mike,
Do we have explicite orders not to worship Jesus, or the Son of God, ya know, where His name is used? Surely God knew that millions would worship the Son with the Father yet He would only purposely tell us not to worship the angels but not Jesus? Show me where He tells us not to worship His Son like He told us about the angels.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,20:52) Ah, but we are specifically told to honor him. And we even know that all knees will bow to our King. Now, if only we were told to worship him, I'd be on board with you. But since we have very clear and explicite orders about who to worship, I will follow my orders like a good soldier.
mike
Mike,
Before the NT was written, people didn't need to be shown to religiously honor Jesus as from God. It came from their heart not an order from what they read. The Jews even knew the first commandment not to bow down to idols or anyone except the Lord God yet, it was a natural response to do so to Jesus because they knew that He was from God.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,22:59) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2010,22:36) Truly Pierre, God is the one that declared the Son His image…you give me too much credit. Are you doubting that the Son is the image of God now? Col 1:15
Kathiwhat type of image is Christ
Pierre
Kathiyou are very selective ,why do you not answer my question??
Pierre
all
see here how wonder becomes something without confirmation ,just may bees/
Hi theodorej,
Thanks for your reply. Would you say that in this Psalm, that the Messiah is called 'God' and 'Lord?'————–
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
So…Lightenupand the other one;;;
theodorej,
I was wondering if these 2 Psalms 47 and 48 were Messianic, I will have to look further but I saw a commentary indicating that they are talking about Jesus.
Do you understand these Psalms as being about the Messiah?
Thanks theodorej!
THE DESIRE TO FOLLOW MEN IDEAS IS VERY STRONG IN SOME INDIVIDUALS SO STRONG IT IS BURNING THEM ,AND SO REJECT SCRIPTURES PLAIN WORDS,
Pierre
Sorry Pierre,
I forgot about your question but I might point out that while you 'wonder' about my answer, your last post was criticizing that I was wondering about someone else's answer. Isn't that kind hypocritical…just sayin' is all.You asked what type of image is Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, the exact representation of the nature of God kinda image.
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 16 2010,10:29) Irene, Thanks. Also alll you can do is pray for your kids (son) and leave the rest up to God. My daughter is really ripping me up, but like you I say nothing and pray for her and love her unconditionally, and the rest is between her and God.Peace-Mark
Mark! You are so right. That is what I have been doing. I pray for all of our Family members. In this world its crazy….. Not only that, our Government is making us all hungry…. Not only for the truth, but for our Bread…Inflation is coming…. I guess your wife already told you….Georg is stocking up and thank God we're not in debt….To think that everything will be double within the next tqwo years, is unbelievable. I was alive when Germany went under, and went hungry a lot…. I am not looking forward to it….May God be with You and Yours always…. IreneKathi:
Quote But Mike,
Do we have explicite orders not to worship Jesus,
Yes, the order that says to worship ONLY Jehovah is an explicite order to NOT worship anyone else but Jehovah.Kathi:
Quote Surely God knew that millions would worship the Son with the Father
Surely He did. Maybe that's why there are so few finding that narrow road?Kathi:
Quote yet He would only purposely tell us not to worship the angels but not Jesus?
He purposely tells us to worship the Creator, not the creation.Kathi:
Quote Show me where He tells us not to worship His Son like He told us about the angels.
See my first answer above. Kathi, if I tell you I ONLY want a red M&M candy, then I'm at the same time EXPLICITELY telling I do NOT want a green, nor a brown, nor a blue, etc.Kathi:
Quote Before the NT was written, people didn't need to be shown to religiously honor Jesus as from God. It came from their heart not an order from what they read. The Jews even knew the first commandment not to bow down to idols or anyone except the Lord God yet, it was a natural response to do so to Jesus because they knew that He was from God.
Your full of it missy. Shall we go through the long list of people who were bowed down before in the Bible? David for sure. Elisha for sure. I remember Abraham bowing to someone for sure. Shall we look up all the times in scripture that the Jews were breaking the first commandment?mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,12:56) But Mike,
Do we have explicite orders not to worship Jesus, or the Son of God, ya know, where His name is used? Surely God knew that millions would worship the Son with the Father yet He would only purposely tell us not to worship the angels but not Jesus? Show me where He tells us not to worship His Son like He told us about the angels.
Kathi! When it says that we should worship Jehovah God only, and there is none besides Him, that means that is what we should be doing…. There are several good Scriptures that tell us that, and you are not following those if you worship Jesus…..Peace Irene
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