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Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,18:07) And don't be ridiculous about my asking my wife to lose her life for my sake.
MartyThen don't be rediculous in thinking that a mere man can require another mans life for his names sake and not be breaking the commandments of God.
Why didn't Jesus say for the Fathers name sake?
Do you even have a relationship with Jesus, and if you do to what degree are you devoted to him Marty? Is Jesus just a passing thought that you have when you go to the Father? Do you have fellowship with the Father and the Son, and if so is your fellowship with the Son limited yet with the Father it is not? Check your heart Marty and then check your doctrine in light of the scriptures which makes Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Your doctrine either makes Jesus into an idol or you do not give him the same honor as the Father.
How do you give your life to just a mere man and follow him even to the death and not be making him an idol and breaking the commandments of God….?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
You say you are obeying God as if your devotion is not to Jesus but somehow through him like a puppet or something.
Jesus said you can only serve “one master” Marty.
Simple question Marty…
Is total abandonment of self to a mere man in violation of the Mosaic law or not?
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,18:07)
You said that God: This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.And so, when you are using the term “worship” with regards to Jesus it must mean something other than the “worship” that is due to God alone because the scripture plainly states that Jesus is a man.
Quote 1 Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, not just a mere man, but nevertheless he is a man.
Hey Mike are you listening? How can he be more than a mere man Marty if you say he didn't preexist his birth? I thought you were in bed with all those who say Jesus is a mere man in everyway like us?Okay, then tell me Marty. Is there a limit to your devotion to him (Jesus)? Remember Jesus didn't say take up your cross and follow the Father did he?
I am asking about your relationship with your not just a mere man Jesus and not the Fathers Marty.
Is your fellowship with the Father and the Son Marty, and if so are you less devoted to one and more devoted to the other?
WJ
Hi WJ:
I have never said that Jesus is a mere man, He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but yes, he is a man. That is what the scriptures state. He is not God.
There is only “One God” and that is also what the scripture states.
I have confessed Jesus as my Lord, and it means that I am subjected to God through him. He gave his life so that whosover believes in him can be reconciled to God, our Father.
WJ, did Jesus come to do the will of the Father who sent him? Did he not make it clear. Why then does he have to say that we should lose our life for the Father's sake when he came to do the Father's will, to offer his life as a sacrifice so that all of humanity can be reconciled to God, and because he overcame sin, death and the grave, we who are being discipled can also over come by following in his footsteps, and by the blood that he shed when we fall short of perfect obedience. Again, he was obeying God, and we are obeying God when we obey him.
But you are grasping for straws seeing that you have already stated the truth, and that God has made it clear that He is the only one to be worshipped as God.
And when you say what he said, “no man can serve two masters”. That is true, and when we obey Jesus we are obeying God. It is the Word of God that we are obeying from the head of the church on down.
He, Jesus said, “if you love me, keep my commandments”, and I do love him and keep his commandments, “the Word of God” that he obeyed even unto death on the cross.
Quote John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I don't have any problem understanding this, do you?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,23:05) WJ, did Jesus come to do the will of the Father who sent him? Did he not make it clear. Why then does he have to say that we should lose our life for the Father's sake when he came to do the Father's will…
MartyBecause it is a violation of the Mosaic law for a man to require the life of another man for “his names sake” unless he is equal to God.
That kind of devotion to another would be breaking the commandments of God.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus Jesus image by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
Why do you think the Jews to this day reject Christianity Marty? Its because Jesus claim that he is the Son of God to them meant that he was claiming equality with God by making God his own personal Father.
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2010,01:44) Now, can you answer my one question: The Bible says that those who were spitting and persecuting Jesus “proskyneo”ed him.
You can mockingly bow before someone.
How do you mockingly worship someone? By bowing.
DavidYour words contradict Jesus words. Can a man worship God in vain. If so is that true worship?
Howbeit “in vain do they worship me”, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mk7:7
Is it possible for someone to be worshipping God in vain? Jesus quotes this against the Pharisees as a rebuke for their religious service to God which he considered “vain worship”.
The rest I have already answered!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2010,21:30) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,18:07)
You said that God: This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.And so, when you are using the term “worship” with regards to Jesus it must mean something other than the “worship” that is due to God alone because the scripture plainly states that Jesus is a man.
Quote 1 Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, not just a mere man, but nevertheless he is a man.
Hey Mike are you listening? How can he be more than a mere man Marty if you say he didn't preexist his birth? I thought you were in bed with all those who say Jesus is a mere man in everyway like us?Okay, then tell me Marty. Is there a limit to your devotion to him (Jesus)? Remember Jesus didn't say take up your cross and follow the Father did he?
I am asking about your relationship with your not just a mere man Jesus and not the Fathers Marty.
Is your fellowship with the Father and the Son Marty, and if so are you less devoted to one and more devoted to the other?
WJ
WJthis is another of your miss understood sciptures,you have no way to understand God and Christ spirit.
you are good as a dictionary you can find words but not the right and true meaning according to scriptures,
i know you told me you study the bible and i agree you did,but not to find God or Christ just to boost up your ego in front of others.
religion is good for that.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 09 2010,14:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2010,21:30) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,18:07)
You said that God: This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.And so, when you are using the term “worship” with regards to Jesus it must mean something other than the “worship” that is due to God alone because the scripture plainly states that Jesus is a man.
Quote 1 Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, not just a mere man, but nevertheless he is a man.
Hey Mike are you listening? How can he be more than a mere man Marty if you say he didn't preexist his birth? I thought you were in bed with all those who say Jesus is a mere man in everyway like us?Okay, then tell me Marty. Is there a limit to your devotion to him (Jesus)? Remember Jesus didn't say take up your cross and follow the Father did he?
I am asking about your relationship with your not just a mere man Jesus and not the Fathers Marty.
Is your fellowship with the Father and the Son Marty, and if so are you less devoted to one and more devoted to the other?
WJ
WJthis is another of your miss understood sciptures,you have no way to understand God and Christ spirit.
you are good as a dictionary you can find words but not the right and true meaning according to scriptures,
i know you told me you study the bible and i agree you did,but not to find God or Christ just to boost up your ego in front of others.
religion is good for that.
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2010,06:22) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,23:05) WJ, did Jesus come to do the will of the Father who sent him? Did he not make it clear. Why then does he have to say that we should lose our life for the Father's sake when he came to do the Father's will…
MartyBecause it is a violation of the Mosaic law for a man to require the life of another man for “his names sake” unless he is equal to God.
That kind of devotion to another would be breaking the commandments of God.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus Jesus image by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
Why do you think the Jews to this day reject Christianity Marty? Its because Jesus claim that he is the Son of God to them meant that he was claiming equality with God by making God his own personal Father.
WJ
No, Keith he is not equal to God, there is only one God. Many times Jesus uses the statement as you say “losing our lives for his sake”, but he also uses the statement “losing our lives for his sake and the sake of the gospel”.What is his purpose as the head of the church? It is for that purpose that we lose our lives.
And he does not require anything. We obey him out of our love for him and for humanity.
Kieth, it is about the salvation of God's children
Based on my experience in doing the work of evangelist on the streets, Jews do not believe because Trinitarians are saying that Jesus is God, and that is clearly a violation of the 1st of the Ten Commandments.
Jesus is the express image of God's person. God made man in his own image, and Jesus is the last Adam. He is the head of the church. God has made him Lord and Christ, and no one comes to the Father but by him. He is worthy of all honor, and praise, and glory. Yet, he is a man, and not God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,17:12) And he does not require anything.
MartyReally? Then what is his commandments about?
What does he mean when he says…
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, “Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “but whosoever shall lose his life FOR MY SAKE and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mk 8:34-38
Is there any limit to your devotion to Jesus Marty?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2010,15:15) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 09 2010,14:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2010,21:30) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,18:07)
You said that God: This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.And so, when you are using the term “worship” with regards to Jesus it must mean something other than the “worship” that is due to God alone because the scripture plainly states that Jesus is a man.
Quote 1 Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, not just a mere man, but nevertheless he is a man.
Hey Mike are you listening? How can he be more than a mere man Marty if you say he didn't preexist his birth? I thought you were in bed with all those who say Jesus is a mere man in everyway like us?Okay, then tell me Marty. Is there a limit to your devotion to him (Jesus)? Remember Jesus didn't say take up your cross and follow the Father did he?
I am asking about your relationship with your not just a mere man Jesus and not the Fathers Marty.
Is your fellowship with the Father and the Son Marty, and if so are you less devoted to one and more devoted to the other?
WJ
WJthis is another of your miss understood sciptures,you have no way to understand God and Christ spirit.
you are good as a dictionary you can find words but not the right and true meaning according to scriptures,
i know you told me you study the bible and i agree you did,but not to find God or Christ just to boost up your ego in front of others.
religion is good for that.
Pierre
WJyou know what Jesus says about children,??
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2010,09:27) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,17:12) And he does not require anything.
MartyReally? Then what is his commandments about?
What does he mean when he says…
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, “Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “but whosoever shall lose his life FOR MY SAKE and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mk 8:34-38
Is there any limit to your devotion to Jesus Marty?
WJ
Hi Keith:I see this as my choice if I want to follow him. He said: “If you love me, keep my commandments”.
As for how devoted I am to him, I have confessed him as my Lord, and I am obeying his commandments.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2010,06:51) No. The Septuagint was translated some three to four hundred years before the NT scriptures were written. I am dealing with the NT use of the word.
Hi Keith,The Septuagint (pronounced /ˈsɛptuː.ədʒɪnt/), or simply “LXX”, referred to in critical works by the abbreviation ,[1] is the Koine Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BCE in Alexandria.[2] It was begun by the third century BCE and completed before 132 BCE.[3] (From Wikipedia)
Now that we know the facts, I just have a couple of questions for you.
1. Do you know that the LXX was what the NT writers considered “Scripture”?
2. Why would they read the word “proskuneo” in the LXX and assume it ALWAYS meant “God-Worship” when it was clearly also used for the obeisance done to those who were not God?
3. And if they understood from their “Scripture” that the word could be used for either, then why would you assume they wouldn't also use it for either?
Now, on to the soldiers. Mark uses “proskuneo” for what was mockingly done to Jesus. But he mentions that they also were saying, “Hail, King of the Jews” to Jesus.
Matthew also records the same exact event, including the words of the soldiers, “Hail, King of the Jews”. But Matthew uses the word “gonupeteo” for what the soldiers mockingly do to Jesus. This word is defined by NETNotes as, “1) to fall on the knees, the act of imploring aid, and of expressing reverence and honour”. This word does NOT carry the connotation of “God-Worship” at all.
It's important to note that John, while not mentioning the bowing down, does mention the “Hail, King of the Jews” part.
So, what we have is three separate writers who agree that the soldiers were mocking Jesus, not for being “God” or “God's Son”, but for being the “King of the Jews”.
What we also have is the use of one word that has nothing to do with “God-Worship” being used, and another that can either refer to “God-Worship” OR “an expression of reverence and honor”.
Now, considering the soldiers were mocking what they considered a fake “King”, which use of “proskuneo” better fits into the event described?
And considering scripture doesn't contradict itself, and it is all inspired by God Himself, does it make better sense that Mark and Matthew described the same event with different words, or that both of these inspired writers described a totally different action that was mockingly done to Jesus?
That's all I have to say about it Keith. The rest is between you and God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2010,13:22) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2010,23:05) WJ, did Jesus come to do the will of the Father who sent him? Did he not make it clear. Why then does he have to say that we should lose our life for the Father's sake when he came to do the Father's will…
MartyBecause it is a violation of the Mosaic law for a man to require the life of another man for “his names sake” unless he is equal to God.
That kind of devotion to another would be breaking the commandments of God.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus Jesus image by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
Why do you think the Jews to this day reject Christianity Marty? Its because Jesus claim that he is the Son of God to them meant that he was claiming equality with God by making God his own personal Father.
WJ
WJChrist never ask your live ,you are drugs or what ??
Pierre
Hi WJ:
In the OT, even Joseph's parents were shown bowing to Joseph in his dream, and so, I do not believe that God forbids someone bowing in reverence to a king. And to bow, may also mean to be submissive to someone. We are to obey the king. The Hebrew word is Shachah meaning to do obeisance. The same as the Greek word, proskyneo, to do obeisance.
However, there is no other man that is worthy of the position of “Lord and Christ” over all of humanity, and yet, he is a man and not God. He is the “King of kings and the Lord of Lords”.
Quote
Revelation 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying,Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Love in Christ,
Marty“However, there is no other man that is worthy of the position of “Lord and Christ” over all of humanity, and yet, he is a man and not God. He is the “King of kings and the Lord of Lords”.”
Marty,
When Jesus rose from the dead, and appeared to the apostles without Thomas, and then appeared again to them and Thomas was with them, He responded “My Lord and My God”. to which Jesus replied ” you believe because you have seen “. If he wasn't God wouldn't he have said “I'm not God, I'm his son”. If you believe scripture is truth how can you explain that? Peace- Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 11 2010,11:47) “However, there is no other man that is worthy of the position of “Lord and Christ” over all of humanity, and yet, he is a man and not God. He is the “King of kings and the Lord of Lords”.” Marty,
When Jesus rose from the dead, and appeared to the apostles without Thomas, and then appeared again to them and Thomas was with them, He responded “My Lord and My God”. to which Jesus replied ” you believe because you have seen “. If he wasn't God wouldn't he have said “I'm not God, I'm his son”. If you believe scripture is truth how can you explain that? Peace- Mark
Hi Mark:I do believe scripture, and God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God” through the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16. Many other scriptures also, and so, do you want to question this based on a statement of suprise by the Apostle Thomas?
What was it that the Apostle Thomas was having difficulty believing?
Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead. Here is the account:
Quote John 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Verse 31 of this account, “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…”
And Jesus said the following in verses preceeding this account with the Apostle Thomas:
Quote John 2015Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mark, he said,“go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
I hope that this answers your question.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
The incarnation of Jesus is both a mystery and a miracle, and we humans cannot possibly comprehend his complete identity. Jesus gave us an example of humility, in that although he was on and the same with his father he did not” lord it over us” , and was kind and humble like we all should be. IMO that statement wasnt just a impulseive statement of suprise, it was a fact. But even besides that instance there are many other scriptures that say that Jesus is God. God is God, I assume you agree with that. In John 10;30 Jesus states “I and the Father are one” . Also It says in scripture ” Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”. You have to believe Jesus himself. He said it not me. You no doubt have been taught or led by some other influance, and I understand that. You will no doubt start giving reasonings and quoting a few scripptures stating him as Son and Savior, which I agree he is. We worship Jesus. There are many instances where Jesus is worshiped in the Gospels, such as the man who was blind from birth when he found out Jesus healed him. Wouldn't that be blasphemous if he was not God? Jesus said Matt 4:10 “you shall do homage to the Lord your God;him alone shall you adore”, also Mark 12:29 “This is the first:'Hear O Isreal! The Lord our God is Lord alone!”. Then in verse 35 “How can the scribes claim 'The messiah is davids Son'? David himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit,saidThe Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
If David adresses him as 'Lord,' in what sense can he be his son?”
Philippians 2:6″ Though he was in the form of God ” How could he be in the form of god if he was only his son?
We are sons of God, he is our father, the first sentance of the prayer Jesus gave us. He is son of God, also “Lord”, because he humbled himself to share in our humanity and give us an example of humility, which is one aspect we humans have an extremely hard time of mastering due to our vanity in thinking we know anything, which in reality we know very little. It is extreemly dangerous to me not to believe that Jesus is Lord. I will always believe what Thomas exclaimed “My Lord and My God” To him be honor, power, glory, might, praise, homage and worship for ever and ever, Amen. Peace-Mark
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,19:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2010,09:27) 942767,Nov. wrote:And he does not require anything.
MartyReally? Then what are his commandments about?
What does he mean when he says…
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, “Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “but whosoever shall lose his life FOR MY SAKE and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mk 8:34-38
Is there any limit to your devotion to Jesus Marty?
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,19:55) Hi Keith: I see this as my choice if I want to follow him.
MartyDo you?
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you“, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:16
What about Paul who said he was a “Prisoner of Jesus Christ”? Would Paul who is a Hebrew of the Hebrews place that kind of devotion on Jesus if he believed he is just a man and not God, knowing the commandments of God?
Jesus said…
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Acts 9:16
How do you reconcile Jesus words with the Mosaic law if he is not equal to God?
When Jesus calls you, you have the choice to follow or not too, if you don't “FOLLOW HIM” by denying yourself and taking up your cross and losing your life for “HIS NAMES SAKE” then you will lose your life and experience God's (Jesus) judgment.
How is it you cannot see that this makes Jesus equal to God and would violate his commandments if he is only a man?
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,19:55) He said: “If you love me, keep my commandments”.
Think about those words Marty? Why didn't he say if you love me keep my Fathers commandments? Jesus gives us commandments that are equal to the commandments of God and then claims them as his commandments. Can you or anyone else ever make the claim that Gods commandments are our commandments and tell others to keep our commandments?Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2010,19:55) As for how devoted I am to him, I have confessed him as my Lord, and I am obeying his commandments.
Listen to yourself Marty. In your mind you are obeying the commandments of only a man and not Gods. Will you keep his commandments even if those commandments require you to die on a cross or suffer a martyr’s death like all the Apostles save John?Once again Marty…
Is there any limit to your devotion to Jesus Marty?
If the answer is no, would that not be breaking the Mosaic law if Jesus is only a man?
If the answer is yes then how is Jesus first in your life, like he was in the Apostles like Paul who counted all things but dung that he might win Christ? He didn't say that he might win the Father, which doesn't take away from the Father because he who has the Son has God?
It’s a yes or no answer. You don't have to answer if you don't want to Marty, that is fine, but just think about what I am saying.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2010,06:51) No. The Septuagint was translated some three to four hundred years before the NT scriptures were written. I am dealing with the NT use of the word.
Hi Keith,The Septuagint (pronounced /ˈsɛptuː.ədʒɪnt/), or simply “LXX”, referred to in critical works by the abbreviation ,[1] is the Koine Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BCE in Alexandria.[2] It was begun by the third century BCE and completed before 132 BCE.[3] (From Wikipedia)
MikeThanks for clarification; never the less it is believed that the first book written in the NT was James around 51 AD. So that would still mean that almost two hundred years had passed until the beginning of the NT.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52)
Now that we know the facts, I just have a couple of questions for you.1. Do you know that the LXX was what the NT writers considered “Scripture”?
Primarily Yes!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) 2. Why would they read the word “proskuneo” in the LXX and assume it ALWAYS meant “God-Worship” when it was clearly also used for the obeisance done to those who were not God?
Why do you insist that when the word “proskuneo” is translated worship it means only “God worship”? There are examples of the word used that clearly show men “worshipping” angels, idols and men and even satan. Do you deny this?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) 3. And if they understood from their “Scripture” that the word could be used for either, then why would you assume they wouldn't also use it for either?
I am looking for clear examples in the NT where this is so, yet I have found none.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) Now, on to the soldiers. Mark uses “proskuneo” for what was mockingly done to Jesus. But he mentions that they also were saying, “Hail, King of the Jews” to Jesus. Matthew also records the same exact event, including the words of the soldiers, “Hail, King of the Jews”. But Matthew uses the word “gonupeteo” for what the soldiers mockingly do to Jesus. This word is defined by NETNotes as, “1) to fall on the knees, the act of imploring aid, and of expressing reverence and honour”. This word does NOT carry the connotation of “God-Worship” at all.
So you say Mike, but you should research this a little more.I want to thank you and David for bringing this up for it has caused me to dig deeper and to see why the soldiers mocked Jesus by worshipping him in a mocking way.
What I have found is during this time the Romans were Polytheist and worshipped many gods, and in fact they worshipped Caesar as a god. So it is not uncommon that they would be worshipping Jesus as a “King” in a mocking way for they worshipped their King. The fact that they had an inscription of the Caesar on a coin while he was alive is proof that they saw him as divine or as a god.
The inscription on a coin of the period reads “Ti[berivs] Caesar Divi Avg[vsti] F[ilivs] Avgvstvs” (“Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus”), claiming that Augustus was a god. Source
Caesar the God
The title Imperator also became a legal title that he could use before his name for the rest of his life. An ivory statue in the likeness of Caesar was to be carried at all public religious processions. Another statue of Caesar was placed in the temple of Quirinus with the inscription “To the Invincible God.” Quirinus, to the Roman people, was the deified likeness of the city's founder and first King, Romulus. This act clearly identified Caesar not only on equal terms with the divine, but with the kings as well. More outrageous, and even more clearly identifying Caesar with the kings, was yet a third statue. This statue was erected on the capitol alongside those of the seven Roman Kings, and with that of Lucius Junius Brutus, the man who led the revolt to expel the Kings in the first place. In yet more scandalous behavior, Caesar had coins minted bearing his likeness. This was the first time in Roman history that a living Roman was featured on a coin, clearly placing him above the Roman state, and tradition. SourceSo you see Mike they were mockingly worshipping him for they were mimicking the worship of their own Caesar.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52)
It's important to note that John, while not mentioning the bowing down, does mention the “Hail, King of the Jews” part.So, what we have is three separate writers who agree that the soldiers were mocking Jesus, not for being “God” or “God's Son”, but for being the “King of the Jews”.
What we also have is the use of one word that has nothing to do with “God-Worship” being used, and another that can either refer to “God-Worship” OR “an expression of reverence and honor”.
Wrong Mike, here is some more information about “Hailing the Caesar” or any King besides the Caesar…Another accusation made against the Christians was that of atheism. The charge arose from the fact that the people of the Roman empire couldn't understand the concept of an imageless God. So they blamed the Christians for insulting the gods of the state. There wasn't so much left of the ancient worship, but there were still some events were people were expected to worship the gods. Around 249 AD emperor worship became obligated. The Roman Empire was extremely big and to bring unity and control all the people, except for the Jews, had to worship Ceasar. Worship of another Lord could only open the floodgates of chaos (Shelley, page 44).
Caesar-worship was mainly invented to see if a citizen was political loyal. The Christians prayed for Caesar, but not to him. The Christians would never say; “Caesar is Lord,” because for them there was only one Lord, Jesus. That is why Rome regarded them as a band of potential revolutionaries threatening the very existence of the empire (Shelley, page 4
4). God was more important to them than worshiping Caesar or the pagan gods. They hold stand fast. Of course there were Christians who did deny the name of the Lord; it is hard to say anything about that. At this moment I concentrated myself on the persecution of Christians who did not deny the name of the Lord. There were many who could not stand up the persecution, and left the Faith.SourceNotice Mike, Caesar worship was common and by 249 it was mandated that they had to worship the emperor, this is why many died a martyr’s death, but this is also why many left the faith.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) Now, considering the soldiers were mocking what they considered a fake “King”, which use of “proskuneo” better fits into the event described? And considering scripture doesn't contradict itself, and it is all inspired by God Himself, does it make better sense that Mark and Matthew described the same event with different words, or that both of these inspired writers described a totally different action that was mockingly done to Jesus?
No see above! Why do you insist that men in the NT did not worship angels and men and idols? Not all worship is God worship. Jesus said that there are those that worship the Father in vain…This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But “in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men”. Matt 15:8, 9
Jesus rebuked them for vain worship to the Father which he attributes to their religious service to the Father.
You know what I think Mike? Many are still worshipping the Father in vain for they think that they can serve him (worship him) without honoring Jesus with the same honor. They think that they are serving (worshipping) the Father by FOLLOWING A MAN AND HIS COMMANDMENTS TO THE DEATH which would be the highest form of devotion and worship which only God can require.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,21:52) That's all I have to say about it Keith. The rest is between you and God.
True!WJ
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 11 2010,06:24) Marty,
The incarnation of Jesus is both a mystery and a miracle, and we humans cannot possibly comprehend his complete identity. Jesus gave us an example of humility, in that although he was on and the same with his father he did not” lord it over us” , and was kind and humble like we all should be. IMO that statement wasnt just a impulseive statement of suprise, it was a fact. But even besides that instance there are many other scriptures that say that Jesus is God. God is God, I assume you agree with that. In John 10;30 Jesus states “I and the Father are one” . Also It says in scripture ” Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”. You have to believe Jesus himself. He said it not me. You no doubt have been taught or led by some other influance, and I understand that. You will no doubt start giving reasonings and quoting a few scripptures stating him as Son and Savior, which I agree he is. We worship Jesus. There are many instances where Jesus is worshiped in the Gospels, such as the man who was blind from birth when he found out Jesus healed him. Wouldn't that be blasphemous if he was not God? Jesus said Matt 4:10 “you shall do homage to the Lord your God;him alone shall you adore”, also Mark 12:29 “This is the first:'Hear O Isreal! The Lord our God is Lord alone!”. Then in verse 35 “How can the scribes claim 'The messiah is davids Son'? David himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit,saidThe Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
If David adresses him as 'Lord,' in what sense can he be his son?”
Philippians 2:6″ Though he was in the form of God ” How could he be in the form of god if he was only his son?
We are sons of God, he is our father, the first sentance of the prayer Jesus gave us. He is son of God, also “Lord”, because he humbled himself to share in our humanity and give us an example of humility, which is one aspect we humans have an extremely hard time of mastering due to our vanity in thinking we know anything, which in reality we know very little. It is extreemly dangerous to me not to believe that Jesus is Lord. I will always believe what Thomas exclaimed “My Lord and My God” To him be honor, power, glory, might, praise, homage and worship for ever and ever, Amen. Peace-Mark
MarkGood post!
WJ
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