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Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 07 2010,16:17) did ya both forget that John worshipped in angel, isnt it typical of man to worship anything in their stupidity that shows wonders.
Hi SF,Hope things are better with you.
You are right that “stupid” mankind seems to have a tendency to worship other things than God. It must be a quality we inherited from “our father the devil”. Just look at all the people today who want to worship Jesus against God's direct commands. 
peace and love,
mikeQuote Since you and David insist that the word “proskyneō” does not mean “worship” but simply a “bowing down” out of respect for a king –WJ
WJ, I never said that proskyneo does not mean worship.
Isn't it an established fact that it means “bowing down, doing obeisance OR worshipping.”
Because of this we have to look at the context. Those who were spitting on Jesus were not worshipping him. Nor in Jesus parable were they worshiping the king.
Quote Hi All David and Mike claim they have answered my points, but I am going to bring them up again so everyone can see that they have not. Also I have bolded the points in the end so that they have another chance at proving me wrong.
In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.
Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less?
WJ, you have said this before, and I have no idea why. I simply can't figure out your reasoning or how this proves anything.
Yes, Jesus used the word “proskyneo” with reference to what we are to do towards the Father. Your point? Maybe make your poit or argument somewhat clearer.
Quote Jesus said… But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
Again, bad logic, WJ. First, you have to go 3 centuries before you find that word outside of the NT. It is not a common word at all and is used only once in the NT. So what a fabulous idea to base your argument on that. And just because it's translated “worshippers” does not mean that proskuneo always means worship.
Let's look at strongs again.
4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):–worship.
We can see that it means many things, which are all related.
Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? –wj
Again, not great argumentation given that proskuneo doesn't necessarily mean to “worship.” (see strongs above.)
Quote To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. –WJ
We are now conveniently forgetting about the king in Jesus' illustration. Was the king being worshipped? No.
Quote The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus?
–wj
Perhaps you do not read my posts.
READ MATTHEW 18:26 AND THE SURROUNDING VERSES
READ MATTHEW 18:26 AND THE SURROUNDING VERSES.
READ MATTHEW 18:26 AND THE SURROUNDING VERSES.
Many Bibles don't translate proskyneo there as “worship” and they do this for 2 reasons:
1. Proskyneo doesn't always mean worship.
2. In the account, it is clear that they were not worshiping the king. That's not what is indicated.WJ, I assume you will continue to ignore this scripture and continue to ask the same question as if no one is answering it. Did you ever look up:
MATTHEW 18:26 ?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,06:23) Hi All David and Mike claim they have answered my points, but I am going to bring them up again so everyone can see that they have not. Also I have bolded the points in the end so that they have another chance at proving me wrong.
In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.
Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less?
Now here is a tidbit for those who have ears to hear…
Jesus said…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me?
To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.
The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
Why did Jesus use the word in describing “True Worship” (proskyneō) to God and not rebuke those who worshipped (proskyneō) him?
Here are the main points they have not addressed.
- Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? (In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.)
- In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? (Since Peter and John refused proskyneō) David said it is because Peter was humble. Then that means that Peter was more humble than Jesus. No, Peter said “He also was a man”.
- To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
- Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
Now please stop rewording my statements to fit your response.
WJ
HI WJ.which of the points that you list in this paragraph have I not answered?
Now, can you answer my one question:
The Bible says that those who were spitting and persecuting Jesus “proskyneo”ed him.
You can mockingly bow before someone.
How do you mockingly worship someone? By bowing.To do something mockingly requires the actual action.
They were in fact mockingly bowing before Jesus.It's just like you can't mockingly “love” someone, but you can mockingly “hug” someone, etc.
Is it not clear in that verse that what they were doing was “bowing down” before Jesus?
Or, were they “worshiping” Jesus?
What were they actually doing?quick summary
Quote Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? (In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.)
[[Don't have a clue what logic you are using here or what this proves]]
In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? (Since Peter and John refused proskyneō) David said it is because Peter was humble. Then that means that Peter was more humble than Jesus. No, Peter said “He also was a man”.
[[If you bowed before Peter today, the right thing for him to do would still be to tell you not to do that, and he'd direct the honor and glory to Jesus and his Father… Jesus, being a king, the situation is a little different, isn't it?]]
To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
[[Just plain wrong. See above.]]
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
[[Again, see above.]]
There. Now can we stop ignoring my question?
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2010,22:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2010,14:51) I can have my opinions of Teresa. She was given millions of dollars but puts on the pauper appearance. Was she playing a role to tug at people's pocket books? I started wondering about her when I learned that she would allow people to die without knowing there is only one way to God.
James 1:27…”Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”Argue with scripture sorry, God knows the intentions of her heart, which is good, for those who think she had bad intentions, I dont believe that at all.
Quote James 1:27…”Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.” Churches all over the world are doing this 'true religion' thing yet Shimmer says churches do 'weird things' but exalts Teresa for doing the things churches have been doing all along, although the churches provide eternal hope by teaching that Christ is the only way.
The church I attend supports 90+ full time missionaries in 35 countries. We have several teams going on short term missions at various times throughout the year. They go to provide medical care, evangelism, preaching, teaching and discipling pastors and laymen. You can bet that their main message is that the only way to get to the Father is through Jesus and NOT through buddah, or any other religious figure, what would be the point to do all the medical help if you couldn't provide spiritual truth. An OB physician in my Sunday School class has quit his very successful medical practice in order to go and volunteer on several short term medical missions where much needed quality health care and surgery is done. Another member has recently been in India equipping disciples to teach that Jesus is the only way and how to study their Bible. A man that recently died who had been a member of our church for years through his ministry, had multitudes of children cared for, many hundreds of national workers were trained and sponsored in the Gospel ministry, and countless new believers were introduced to the Good News of Jesus Christ in Greece, he also headed up the building of a 220 bed hospital over there. I have friends from church that were arrested in the past for holding a peaceful demonstration at an abortion clinic and now our town is abortion clinic free. My church supports the efforts of the pro-life center that now offers hope and healing for women that have chosen abortion in the past, have built a memorial to their unborn, also they have helped women choose life for their unborn and given provisions for those new borns. I was at a fund raising banquet just last week to support the Bible training center in the Carribean where many people from my church have ministered and supported. A dear lady at my church has a ministry to the inner city single mother's, providing food, shelter, clothing, furniture, and toys and the truth that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Another lady at my church head's up the child evangelism center at which three of my five kids have been missionaries with two of them even went 2,000 miles away to work with the inner city kids. A couple in my class recently came back to their hometown in the states after living with and ministering to a tribe in a jungle of South America. They just purchased their first house after being married for 50 years. Another lady has a heart for the homeless and goes under bridges seeking to point them to Christ and I met one of them a couple of weeks ago and he speaks of all the love the church has shown him. My church supports the local food kitchen and members go there to help serve. My son, just yesterday, with the guys in his small 'life group' visited a widow and voluntarily did yard work for her and I prepared a big spaghetti dinner for them. Many people are bringing meals to the sick, visiting the shut-ins, giving help to the poor in town and the list goes on and on.
So, if church does 'weird things' I wouldn't stop looking for a church like the several that are doing the things listed above. One pastor from another church said that when a disaster comes like what happened in Haiti, the press is all over it and show the humanitarian relief come from all over the world. What they seem to miss is that the churches have had people already in those countries providing love and help in the way of medical support and spiritual discipline in truth and academics. My church still does these things in spite of not having a senior pastor for the last 4 years.
'Organized religion' is outside of their walls helping and serving the lost, the weak, the suffering, and have been doing this outside of the media's focus. People spend their own money to go or raise their own support because of their love and calling by God to do this. Just today I got an email of friend's that are training to go into the poorest country of the world to raise their 5 kids in (ages 7 and under) because of their calling to reach out to the lost and minister to them. I babysit all their kids a few weeks ago and I cannot imagine taking on what they are about to take on. My friend's daughter (age-early 20's) recently completed 11 months of serving as an overseas missionary on her own savings and support by church members. She was used to help the prostitutes, the sick, the hungry, the Gypsies, etc.
So if anyone here is so opposed to 'organized religion' why don't you consider how much more you can do when united in a local church than on your own. I cringe when people abandon the local church because of their independent spirit. I think that if you disagree with doctrine but you see love, you should continue to go and pursue a heart of understanding. Maybe you can be an instrument of revelation and just maybe you could learn something new to take down your independent religious spirit. We should seek for unity in the truth with our local church body and not walk away from them.
Sorry, I know this is long but this is what God has put on my heart this weekend.
To Mike and David
I wll answer your many points but have already answered most. But first I want to hear from both of you what the definition of the word “Worship” means to you?
What does it mean to “worship” the Father?
What is the “True Worship” Jesus spoke of and how is it done practically?
How do you “worship the Father”?
WJ
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:28) It doesn't mention God anywhere in that statement Keith.
Does it have to mention God to know that Jesus was not saying that they would be worshipping them?Other translations render it “Worship” and it doesn’t say in the text they will “worship you” or “bow down to you” but instead it is “worship at your feet” or “bow down at your feet and acknowledge that Jesus loves you.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,15:16) But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; “I MYSELF ALSO AM A MAN”. Acts 10:26 Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:28) Keith, please explain to me why you think Cornelius thought that Peter was actually “God Himself”.
Does the term “Worship” have to only be “God worship”? The fact is Cornelius must have known about the miracles wrought through Peter and began to worship him not as God but never the less it was worship. Why do you deny that his actions were perceived by Peter as worship? Is it not possible for men to worship men? What about the worship of the Angels in Revelation. In every case this is forbidden by the recipient, yet not once by Jesus.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:28) Neither have anything to do with my bodily postition, if that's what you're after. I worship and pray to God in whatever position I'm in at the time. Just as Jesus prayed to Him standing, sitting, and reclining on his side.
Okay, so when you say you worship what do you mean? How do you do that, by words, thoughts, or with your hands lifted? Please explain.
WJ
Mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2010,06:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 05 2010,12:22) - Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,14:25) They DIDN'T want it to mean anything less in this scripture Keith.
Then why do you assume that they didn't truly worship Jesus when the word proskyneō was applied to him since he used the word to describe “true worship”? And you have not addressed the point that the word comes from a masculine noun which means “Worshippers”.WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:33)
Really Keith?Because Jesus himself taught that we should ONLY worship Jehovah our God.
Yea well Jehovah God also said…Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
Do you “bow down to Jesus”? Do you “serve” Jesus? Do you give him the same “Honor you give the Father? Will you follow Jesus even to dieing a martyr’s death for “his”, Jesus names sake? If the answer is YES to all the above then tell me how that would not be considered “Worship” and a breaking of the above commandment if Jesus is not equal to the Father?
Do you limit your devotion to Jesus Mike? Worship includes devotion doesn’t it?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:33)
Why don't you assume it meant “God-Worship” when it was applied to David?
I am dealing with the NT use of the word and how the Apostles and Jesus understood its use, especially in light of Jesus in which you have admitted there is a difference in the way they “worshipped” or “Bowed down” to Jesus.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:33)
And your “masculine noun” diversion doesn't change the well known different meanings of the word “proskuneo”…….and therefore is nothing but a diversion.
It is a diversion to you because you do not want to believe it. But if I say a “hunter” (noun) is “hunting” (verb)! It wouldn’t mean he went fishing would it?WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2010,06:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 05 2010,12:22) - In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,14:25) If Jesus, who clearly said we are to worship ONLY Jehovah our God, was ever being “worshipped” in scripture, he most definitely WOULD have said something. But Jesus never was “God-Worshipped” in scripture.
mikeSo it was okay for them to bow down to Jesus and grab his feet and “proskyneō” him yet Peter found it over the top when it was done to him and claimed he was just a man? And the Angels in Revelations also felt the same way.
Seems like you believe Jesus was less honorable than Peter and the Angels? Rev 19:10 – Rev 22:8, 9
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:37)
What?!? How do you come to the conclusion that I think Jesus was LESS honorable?Jesus accepted the reverrence given him as King of the Jews and Lord. Neither Peter nor the angels would accept any honor.
Mike, not all those that worshipped him knew he was the King of the Jews. What about the blind man….Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, “GIVE GOD THE PRAISE”: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner [or no], I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. John 9:24, 25
The blind man later worshipped Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. Why would he do that if being the Son of God was a common thing?
And he said, Lord, I believe. And HE WORSHIPPED HIM.” John 9:38
Even your NIV has it worshipped Mike. Why is that? Are you going to cry foul now that they disagree with you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:37) Jesus was not just a man Keith.
Please explain Mike? Is he some sort of demi-god? Is he some sort of “Hybrid’ of God and man? No wonder you have to battle your concept of Jesus is not just a man.WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2010,06:41) Mike is this what it comes down to, you calling me dishonest because I disagree with your interpretation and the use of the word worship in the NT? The occurrences you mention have been debunked. I am simply showing you the use of the term in the NT under the New Covenant that is all. How about the early Forefathers mike, how did they understand the word? To call me dishonest is purely a lie. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:45) Keith, give me one good reason why the LXX should be excluded. Was it not written by people who spoke Koine Greek in the same general time period in which the NT was written?
MikeNo. The Septuagint was translated some three to four hundred years before the NT scriptures were written. I am dealing with the NT use of the word.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:45) Include the OT in your challenge, and I'll withdraw my charges of deperation and dishonesty. Because to exclude it is nothing but……..
I don’t care what you do Mike. Your accusation about me being dishonest about my interpretation of the scriptures in the NT is a lie!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:45) PS. you haven't “debunked” any of the THREE scripture we're dealing with. In fact I have yet to see your reply to my post about the soldiers. But I'm going post by post, so maybe I'll come across it.
You have not proved any one of your examples is concrete! Pure and simple!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2010,08:05) Mike Ah because of “Common Sense” we are supposed to change the meaning of the text and develop our own translation which is totally against every major translation and every credible Greek Scholar who are the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek?
No thanks mike. I would rather believe the written scriptures and those who brought them to us rather than you!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:48) What are you talking about “changing the meaning of the text”?
Mike are you dyslectic?I was referring to your comment on John 1:1 found Here… last post and here… first post.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:48) Do you or do you not agree that “proskuneo” can either mean “God-Worship” OR a bowing down to show reverrence?
I believe the NT use of the word is “God worship” and the “worship” of other things like men and angels and idols which can include a bowing down in reverence!WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:05) Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode.
David,
Don't explode, seek to understand:John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Leviticus 24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
David it is as if you do not want to try to understand this:
“In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sonship.htm
Can you disprove what is italicized?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2010,17:52) Well, I'm caught up with your posts Keith. And I didn't see anything that answers this one: And we have both showed you that the soldiers were mocking the obeisance done to a king, not the Worship given to God.
MikeThat is your opinion isn't it.
Do you think the following scriptures mean worship…
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if “THOU WILT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP ME”. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matt 4:9, 10
Why did Jesus make the parallel to worshipping the Father?
Howbeit “in vain do they worship me”, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mk7:7
Is it possible for someone to be worshipping God in vain? Jesus quotes this against the Pharisees as a rebuke for their religious service to God which he considered “vain worship”.
”AND I FELL AT HIS FEET TO WORSHIP HIM. And he said unto me, “SEE THOU DO IT NOT“: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: “worship GOD”: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
Was the Angel correcting his worship of him or not?
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, “I FELL DOWN TO WORSHIP before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, “SEE THOU DO IT NOT: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Rev 22:8, 9
So why are you selective in saying that Jesus who walked the earth doing incredible miracles and who at his very presence demons cried out that Jesus could not have been worshiped by men and yet Jesus not once correcting them?
WJ
Hi WJ:
Relative to the following:
Quote Marty Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2010,18:15)
Jesus is my Lord. When I obey him, I am obeying God…That’s a pretty profound statement Marty. Now how far would you carry that? Would you follow his command even if it meant you were going to die for his (Jesus) names sake? So in other words what you are saying Marty is Jesus is equal to God, right?
If you gave a commandment to someone and said they must “lose their life for your names sake” wouldn't others think you were mad and playing God?
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2010,18:15)
…just as when my wife obeys the Word of God submitted to him through me.If you tell your wife that she must follow you even to death no matter what that meant, would she be obeying God or man?
Do you care to answer my following points or do you want to just keep pushing your Jesus is just a mere man theory?
I already answered your questions relative to this when I said that when we obey Jesus we are obeying God. In his earthly ministry Jesus obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross and now he is exalted to his position at the right hand of God as head of the church. It is God's Word that he obeyed and it is God's Word that he watches over to perform. And so, when he asks us to lose our life for his sake, he is asking us to do this so that humanity might be reconciled to God through him.
This is what Jesus stated:
Quote John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.And don't be ridiculous about my asking my wife to lose her life for my sake. I already told you that it is the Word of God that we are striving to obey from the head of the church on down. The gospel is based on whomsoever believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead.
And no, he is not equal to God. He is the head of the church and God has made him Lord and Christ.
The scripture states that the head of Christ is God:
Quote 3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Quote 1 Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Relative to the following:
Quote This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God. God has not changed his mind has he?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD”, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5
Jesus is a religious figure and requires that we follow him even to death or as a Martyr to him if he so requires like he did of the Apostles save one, John..
Do you see that is a violation of the Mosaic law for anyone to place such demands on them. Can you see that the devotion to Jesus when they bowed down to Jesus and worshipped him would be crossing the line. If not then that must mean that you put limits on your devotion to him. Do you?
You said that God: This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.
And so, when you are using the term “worship” with regards to Jesus it must mean something other than the “worship” that is due to God alone because the scripture plainly states that Jesus is a man.
Quote 1 Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, not just a mere man, but nevertheless he is a man.
And so, by your statement that God does not allow anyone to worship someone as God other than himself, shows that your doctrine saying that God is “trinity” is false doctrine.
The scripture from 1 Timothy that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and there are other scriptures that plainy state this as well.
Relative to the following:
Quote Do you mind answering these points… Do you see that is a violation of the Mosaic law for anyone to place such demands on them….If not then that must mean that you put limits on your devotion to him. Do you?
If you do not put any limits on your devotion to him then tell me how that would not be breaking the commandment if Jesus is not God?
How can you claim Jesus is first in your life? Or do you? He may require for you to die for him like Paul and the other Apostles and that would be breaking the commandments of God wouldn't it? (Unless of course he is God)
I already answered these questions by stating the truth in that when we obey Jesus as head of the church, we are obeying God. He is watching over the Word of God to perform it.
And the you say:
Quote BTW Jesus was given the authority he had before he left his place of Glory and emptied himself and was found in fashion as a man. Phil 2:6-8 – John 1:1-3, 14 – John 17:5 You are making some asumptions here which you cannot support by scripture.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WJ:
The following scripture may answer our questions relative to worship of Jesus or what it means when the word is used when applied to him:
Quote Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve The verse says: “Him only shalt thou serve”. What I have said to you is that when we obey Jesus we are obeying the Word of God. He said that it was the Father's will that he was doing. He said that we should honor him as we honor the Father who sent him.
Quote John 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.(he did not say that he was equal with God, he answers this) 19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, (here) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
And he is not a puppet, he is submitted wilfully to God. Just as I am wilfully submitted to God through him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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