Worship God the Father only?

[mikeboll64]

Keith:

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David You have not proven that they were not worshipping the King! The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26 Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei) But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”.

Brenton's LXX translation of 2 Samuel 1:2,

And it came to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came from the camp, from the people of Saul, and his garments were rent, and earth [was] upon his head:
and it came to pass when he went in to David, that he fell upon the earth, and did obeisance to him.

Are you implying that one cannot both “fall down” AND “do obeisance” to someone, Keith?

Keith:

Quote

You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24

Read Matthew 27 Keith.  As the soldiers were mocking Jesus, they said this, “Hail, king of the Jews!”  Isn't that enough to tell you they were mocking the act of obeisance to a king, not “God-Worship”?

Look Keith, David has showed you this scripture.  I have showed you two other uses of “proskuneo” in the NT that have nothing to do with “God-Worship”.  I have showed you one from the OT, and can probably find many more.  How can you look yourself in the mirror?  I point out 2 Sam 1:2, and instead of admitting that “proskuneo” doesn't always mean “God-Worship”, you say that OT scriptures aren't allowed.  

And now you've been shown at least three NT scriptures, but you make non-sensical replies about each one.  

And when faced with all this, you immediately resort to your “trinity proof texts”.  The same ones we've scripturally refuted over and over.

Instead of this “bait and switch” routine, let's actually iron something out for once.  Pick any of the three NT scriptures David and I have pointed out:

1.  The church of Philadelphia
2.  The soldiers
3.  Peter and Cornelius

Let's discuss them slowly and completely without any of the usual “I and the Father are one” diversions.  Just those three scriptures.  Let's see if your theories hold water.

And when we're done, you can show me why you are absolutely certain that all of the uses of “proskuneo” in referrence to Jesus MUST be “God-Worship”.  Show me how there's not even a snowball's chance that they COULD be acts of obeisance.

And then after giving our OPINIONS about it – for that is all it will amount to be – we can peruse some of the writings of those people involved in the said “God-Worshipping” of Jesus, and see whose OPINION more closely matches what those people later wrote about God and His Son.

Are you in?  If not, then I'm out.  I've got no time for these nonsensical claims you're making.  I'll just wait for you to respond in the “Procreation” thread when you get some time.

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

all

Jn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
Jn 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Jn 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Mt 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Mt 18:19 “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

Mk 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Lk 11:9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Lk 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Jn 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Jn 16:26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

how Jesus says to pray to the father ask the father in his name and he will ask his father and plead so that it will be given to you??

is this not show humility even in heaven??is this son has to be worshiped ??

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Good post Pierre.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
The punishment for the Jews who were confessing Christ was the 'putting out of the synagogue:

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20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.

Here we see that they did put the once blind man 'out:'

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4 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

What I find very tender in this story is that Jesus knew that they 'put him out' and He found him and spoke to him personally and plainly revealed Himself to Him as the Son of Man. Now this is when the once blind man proskuneo'd Jesus.

Then some time after that is when the Pharisees stoned Jesus after He said that He and His Father are one.
Jesus was able to elude them.
Jesus went to stay beyond the Jordan.
Many believed in Him there.
Then there was the death of Lazarus.
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead but to do that He had to come to Bethany which was only a couple of miles from Jerusalem.
Some witnesses told the Pharisees about this.
The Pharisees convened a council to discuss what to do with Jesus.
It was from that day that they planned together to kill Jesus. Read here:

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John 11:45-57 45 Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done. 47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being R760 high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer continued to walk publicly among the Jews, but went away from there to the country near the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there He stayed with the disciples. 55 Now the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the Passover to purify themselves.

So you see Mike, the Pharisees had already punished the once blind man for his belief in Jesus as being from God by 'putting him out,' so they did not have a response for the once blind man's worship because they already put him out (of the synagogue, I assume). The decision to kill Jesus wasn't till a while later after Jesus raised lazarus from the dead as you can see in the above passage..

God had a timeline, He planned for the Pharisees to crucify Jesus at the time of the Passover, not at the time of the Feast of Dedication, plus He had a cross planned for Him, not a stoning. God decided the timing of the death of Christ, not the Pharisees, that is one reason that they did not kill Jesus right after the blind man proskuneo'd Him.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:10)

Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:33) Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. The burden of proof is on the gainsayers. The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect? I'll give you a couple, if you want.  But I've already done this WJ. MATTHEW 18:26.  What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king.  And the word is “proskyneo.” So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested. Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means. MARK 15:19 (New King James Version) “Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.” THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION.  They are not worshipping him.  They are mockingly bowing down.  Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!! You cannot argue that it does. David You have not proven that they were not worshipping the King! The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26 Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei) But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”. Besides who is the King that Jesus is speaking of? “So likewise shall “MY HEAVENLY FATHER” do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses”. Matt 18:25 Are you saying that they will not be worshipping the Father in that day?   You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24 Should I list all of the scriptures that show the word proskyneō being used as worship to the Father? Nine times in just 4 verses Jesus used the word “proskyneo” in his conversation with the woman at the well concerning “True Worship” to the Father. Why did Jesus use this word and yet when they were worshipping him he did not discourage them like Peter did… And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him. But Peter took him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself also am a man“. Acts 10:25, 26 You see, there is that “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him“. Get that? “FELL DOWN” AND “WORSHIPPED HIM“!!! Why didn't Jesus “EVER” tell them what Peter told Cornelius? Should I list the scriptures where the word “proskyneō” is used toward men where it was forbidden? Why don't you address this point…? Jesus said… But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23 Notice Strong's G4353 –  “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”. So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”! WJ

My one question Keith, Mark 15:19–

WERE THEY WORSHIPING JESUS?

OR WERE THEY “BOWING DOWN BEFORE” AS THE WORD “PROSKYNEO” LITERALLY MEANS?

If someone spits in your face and then “proskyneo's” you, would you consider that “worship” or “bowing down” in a mocking way?

You can bow down in a mocking way, but can you “worship” in a mocking way?

I think this is CASE CLOSED, as far as your question goes:
Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?–WJ
(And, it doesn't have to mean 'out of great respect.'  The word just means: “bowning down” or “to do obeisance” or “to worship.”

Which fits best in this case?

Are you going to argue that they were worshiping Jesus?
Is there a reason you skipped over that verse?

[david]

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David Jesus said “no one” was good but God. Do you believe him or not?

I'm going to start playing the way WJ plays.

OK, so this means that according to WJ, that WJ is not good. I guess he's bad.

And, i guess jesus was wrong whenever he referred to someone as “good” in one of his illustrations.

Jesus being wrong?
WJ being bad?

Or, rather, as is sometimes done, was God being spoken of in relative terms?

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Major premise:No one is good but God Minor premise: Jesus is the Good Shepherd Conclusion: Jesus is God

wj, how often can one person commit the same fallacy?

According to your very own logic, Jesus isn't the only one who is God. Either your logic is wrong, or there are others in the NT who are God also.

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Now why did he say he was the “Good Shepherd”?

Um? Because he was a spiritual Shepherd who is… Good. You do know that “good” is a fairly common word.

WJ, doesn't it bother you that you have to use hidden messages to reveal what you believe?

[david]

WJ…. Mark 15:19.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:35)

Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:05) Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode. David You mean like the Jews who wanted to stone him for saying it? WJ

No, WJ, I mean like you. I mean exactly and precisely like you.

You cannot isolate one scripture from another scripture that actually explains the first.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,05:59)

Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26) “I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MA, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33 We can forgive the Jews their misunderstanding, because unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of Jesus explaining what he meant by “I and the Father are one”.  Unlike them, we later understand that he meant “one in purpose”, for his hope is for us to be one with them – and we will not be God. HAHAHA! Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers! WJ Well, WJ, he does know more than you.  Scripture itself explain what was meant by Jesus being “one” with the Father. “in order that they [Jesus' disciples] may be one just as we are one.“ (John 17:11) Also read John 17:21.  Same thing, but explains it even better. Clearly, they are one in purpose, in union with one another. Also, we always leave out what Jesus actually said caused all this, that is, him saying: “I am God's Son.” (Read John 10:36) David If our oneness with the Father is the same as Jesus, then why is Jesus the “Only Begotten Son of God”? WJ

I didn't say it is exactly the same.

I'm just quoting what the scripture says.

If you make the argument that because the Bible says that Jesus and his Father are one,that this means trinity,

Then LOGICALLY,
you must also do the same for when jesus ad his disciples are said to be “one.”

At the very least, it can't be used of proof of anything given what was said of Jesus and his disciples.

It is “one” in purpose, unity. “Just as” Jehovah and Jesus are one in purpose, so too Jesus and his followers are one in purpose.

If our oneness with the Father is the same as Jesus, then why is Jesus the “Only Begotten Son of God”?–WJ

Not sure how that applies. The answer is: Because he was begotten directly from God. But this has nothing to do with your original argument.

YOU CAN'T USE THE “ONE” scripture to support the trinity. Here, you are trying to use other theories to support your idea about the “one” scripture. But originally, you were using the “one” scripture to support the trinity.

Hello CIRCLE. HAVE you MET WJ? WJ, this is circle. Oh, I see you've met. Oh, you are good friends. Well, isn't that nice. Would you like a cup of tea? Oh, you can't stay. Well, that's too bad. Oh, you're going to a ball game together? Well, isn't that nice. Say hello to fallacy for me.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2010,19:00)

Hello CIRCLE.  HAVE you MET WJ?  WJ, this is circle.  Oh, I see you've met.  Oh, you are good friends.  Well, isn't that nice.  Would you like a cup of tea?  Oh, you can't stay.  Well, that's too bad.  Oh, you're going to a ball game together?  Well, isn't that nice.  Say hello to fallacy for me.

Hi David,

Is this what your organization teaches, that you attack Christian brothers?
Is it not true that your organization teaches that non-members are non-Christians?

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[shimmer]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 03 2010,11:15)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 03 2010,02:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,19:27) Shimmer thats in excuse. You should cast away opinion and ask God directly in a non-biased manner.  IF we claim to believe what the scriptures state, than we should be able to have the revelation from the Spirit of truth himself. Should it matter what different people think? So with the proof i showed you, now everything is based that “well everyone thinks differently, oh well we have to love everyone” I believe thats an excuse.   There must be TRUTH, there must be one ABOSULUTE truth, and i know that Our God is not a God of confusion. If you want to obey what Jesus said than we must DENY ourselves and what we think, and what we beleive, and deny our mind, and everything about ourselves and Follow Jesus. Thats what he said as well. Pick up our cross and follow him. I see Jesus more than just a rabbi, My gosh He isnt someone who just helped us along the way and tuaght us some basic principles to live by, NO, just like he said to the diciples to “folllow him” we must do the same, to follow him in our daily lives, to have a relationship with Him, because we neeed him! he is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE, no one can go to the father without the son. Jesus said to Peter, if we LOVE HIM, who? Jesus!, we must feed his sheep. WE cant love the Father, without Jesus, we cant deny the father and accpet Jesus, neither one is ever seperated. There is no picking one over another! always in unison! Im not scolding you, im just want you to realize that we cant settle for this excuse that “well everyone has a different understanding of words” God said he willl perserve his WORD not the english language, nor the greek language nor the hebrew. His WORD continues to be without contamination becuase he is the AUTHOR of it! I believe without a doubt that there is an abosulute truth to all these matters. Why settle for what we “think” I hate the way i “think”, i dont trust my mind, nor my heart. But I Trust God! because when my mind fails me and my heart betrays me, God will never fail me! So Ask him, and deny yourself You really want spirital discernment like you cliam, than ask Him.  Because Jesus Christ was all about the Spirit, for he moved in Faith, and in Love, and ending confusion, Spreading truth and gave hope the the hopeless and liberty for the captive. SimplyForgiven I completly agree with your post. All true. Ok. But I was taught by God years ago, its true, believe me or not it doesnt matter because I was. And it was easy, and not confusing, but I wanted to know more, so read everything I could, further and further I drifted, the truth is there, returning to it is harder. Im glad we reached an agreement =) Sorry if i sounded harsh in anyway.

You didnt. It was a good post,

[shimmer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,14:28)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,15:36) Kathi, I see no big deal in it, people hate it when I say this, but if someone chooses to worship Jesus, Who am I to judge ? That means I would also have to judge the millions of people who also worship Jesus, but I will give my opinion here, how I see things. Hi Shimmer, You say that you “see no big deal in it,” but is it one of your reasons to not try to find a church?  If it is, then it is a dividing factor which takes away unity within the body of Christ. You say that there is a difference between 'worship' and bowing down' but you have been shown that according to your preferred translation, the words bowing down are used in the first commandment and in the words that Jesus used towards satan in the desert.  So why isn't proskuneo translated as 'worship' in those cases? Look at the passage regarding the Ten Commandments, I can't find the word 'worship' in it at all, even though proskuneo is in it. Exodus 20:1-11 [ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 1 `And God speaketh all these words, saying, 2 I [am] Jehovah thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants. 3 `Thou hast no other Gods before Me. 4 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me, 6 and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands. 7 `Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing, for Jehovah acquitteth not him who taketh up His name for a vain thing. 8 `Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; 9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, 10 and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, — 11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it… Here is the passage in the desert, there is no word 'worship' here either: 8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, 9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.' 10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.' In some places, YLT translates 'proskuneo' as worship and some places it translates the word as 'bow to' both in reference to the the 'Lord (Jehovah) thy God.' Can you tell me why they translate the same Greek word as  bow to in regards to God in some places and worship to God in other places? Do you think that all the instances where Jesus is 'bowed to' by His followers is ok in light of what the YLT says in the first commandment? 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, I would really like you to acknowledge this fact, Shimmer. Thanks!

But Kathi, I find churches wierd, what they do. No, I dont think I could ever go to church. One thing i was shown years ago that I do remember, before I started reading all the wrong things….you dont need a church, God is there, Gods spirit is within, all you want to do is help, all you see is the world, there are no walls, no divisions, Mother Teresa is one example I believe of true religion. See, no walls.

“In vain do they worship, teaching as doctrines commandments of men.” ……..   And you shall know the truth the truth shall make you free.” …………….”people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.” “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”…………”

Where is the temple of God ?  It is the body. Its the way I see it. And God will lead who he will to where he wants, if they listen.

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,19:27)

If you want to obey what Jesus said than we must DENY ourselves and what we think, and what we beleive, and deny our mind, and everything about ourselves and Follow Jesus. Thats what he said as well. Pick up our cross and follow him.

Hi SF,

Great advise, I suggest you follow that!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Kathi:

Quote

Mike, The punishment for the Jews who were confessing Christ was the 'putting out of the synagogue:

Oh that's all?  I thought Stephen was stoned to death and Paul was on his way to Damascus with arrest warrants.

Kathi:

Quote

The decision to kill Jesus wasn't till a while later after Jesus raised lazarus from the dead as you can see in the above passage..

John 8:37 NIV
37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

All these above things happened before Jesus healed the blind man Kathi.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,19:54)

Kathi: Quote Mike, The punishment for the Jews who were confessing Christ was the 'putting out of the synagogue: Oh that's all?  I thought Stephen was stoned to death and Paul was on his way to Damascus with arrest warrants. Kathi: Quote The decision to kill Jesus wasn't till a while later after Jesus raised lazarus from the dead as you can see in the above passage.. John 8:37 NIV 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. All these above things happened before Jesus healed the blind man Kathi. peace and love, mike

Mike,
You know that the stoning of Stephen was after Jesus was raised from the dead and He was accusing the Pharisees of murdering the Christ. Paul was killing Christians after Christ was raised from the dead too.

As far as the attempted stoning of Jesus in regards to Him saying that He was in existence before Abraham was born, yes, they were seeking to kill Him as a reaction, not as a plan, they were getting hot headed it seems. It became more of a joint plan to kill Jesus after Lazarus was raised. Anyway, if they were already to kill Jesus for what He said about Himself and Abraham, why were they needing 'more evidence?'

I am quite sure that when they may have seen the once blind man proskunoe-ing Jesus, they knew it to be in the religious sense and not in the civil sense because the man confessed that he was now a disciple of Jesus who came from God. His act was motivated by a religious faith within him. This definitely would further the Pharisees anger even if it were merely showing honor because they knew it would be religious honor, not civil honor.

Do you think that a religious belief in, and bowing down to someone/some object to show religious honor to them other than God is against the first commandment, Mike?

The servant proskuneo-ing King David was demonstrating civil honor, not religious honor, isn't that the difference that determines if in one instance, proskuneo-ing is ok to show or not ok to show to some one other than the Lord God?

In all those examples of people 'proskuneo-ing' Jesus after they witnessed Him performing a miracle or before they asked Him to perform one that I posted, do you really think that honoring Him with their proskuneo-ing attitude wasn't of a religious nature? If you can admit that it was of a religious nature, no matter how you translate the word whether it is obeisance, or bowing down, or worship, it would still violate the first commandment if what/who was being religiously proskuneo'd were not allowed by God. Jesus never halted that religious proskuneo-ing shown to Him, not once.

In conclusion, it was the religious proskuneo-ing that was in violation of the first commandment whether it is bowing down to show honor or worship or obeisance.

Do you think that showing religious obeisance to a carved image was in violation of the first commandment? If so, then men showing religious obeisance to Christ would have been a violation to the first commandment also. Religious belief in and religious honor/obeisance/worship towards an idol would be in direct violation of the first commandment, not just 'worship.' Christ would have not permitted even obeisance as a religious act shown to Him because even that would have violated the first commandment…but Christ did permit the proskuneo-ing. The reason was because He and the Father are together in the position of being the saving God over creation, one as the true God and the other as the true begotten God from the true God. That is how I see it.

[Lightenup]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 03 2010,15:37)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,14:28) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,15:36) Kathi, I see no big deal in it, people hate it when I say this, but if someone chooses to worship Jesus, Who am I to judge ? That means I would also have to judge the millions of people who also worship Jesus, but I will give my opinion here, how I see things. Hi Shimmer, You say that you “see no big deal in it,” but is it one of your reasons to not try to find a church?  If it is, then it is a dividing factor which takes away unity within the body of Christ. You say that there is a difference between 'worship' and bowing down' but you have been shown that according to your preferred translation, the words bowing down are used in the first commandment and in the words that Jesus used towards satan in the desert.  So why isn't proskuneo translated as 'worship' in those cases? Look at the passage regarding the Ten Commandments, I can't find the word 'worship' in it at all, even though proskuneo is in it. Exodus 20:1-11 [ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 1 `And God speaketh all these words, saying, 2 I [am] Jehovah thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants. 3 `Thou hast no other Gods before Me. 4 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me, 6 and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands. 7 `Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing, for Jehovah acquitteth not him who taketh up His name for a vain thing. 8 `Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; 9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, 10 and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, — 11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it… Here is the passage in the desert, there is no word 'worship' here either: 8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, 9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.' 10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.' In some places, YLT translates 'proskuneo' as worship and some places it translates the word as 'bow to' both in reference to the the 'Lord (Jehovah) thy God.' Can you tell me why they translate the same Greek word as  bow to in regards to God in some places and worship to God in other places? Do you think that all the instances where Jesus is 'bowed to' by His followers is ok in light of what the YLT says in the first commandment? 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, I would really like you to acknowledge this fact, Shimmer. Thanks! But Kathi, I find churches wierd, what they do. No, I dont think I could ever go to church. One thing i was shown years ago that I do remember, before I started reading all the wrong things….you dont need a church, God is there, Gods spirit is within, all you want to do is help, all you see is the world, there are no walls, no divisions, Mother Teresa is one example I believe of true religion. See, no walls. “In vain do they worship, teaching as doctrines commandments of men.” ……..   And you shall know the truth the truth shall make you free.” …………….”people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.” “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”…………” Where is the temple of God ?  It is the body. Its the way I see it. And God will lead who he will to where he wants, if they listen.

Hi Shimmer,
I was hoping that you could admit that changing the translation from 'worship' to 'bowing down to' is not necessarily showing any difference. Can you do that?

You mentioned this:

Quote

“In vain do they worship, teaching as doctrines commandments of men.” ……..   And you shall know the truth the truth shall make you free.” …………….”people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.” “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”…………”

And then you say this:

Quote

Mother Teresa is one example I believe of true religion. See, no walls.

You believe Mother Teresa to having been an example of true religion but do you think that she knows the truth. Didn't she worship Jesus, even Mary? You don't agree with either, right? Didn't she also teach that there were many ways to God, not just through Jesus? Maybe I'm wrong here so please correct me if I am. If I am right, then why would you use her as someone to exemplify 'true religion?'

She certainly was a worthy humanitarian and deserves credit for that but was she really worshiping God in spirit and truth?

[david]

In the NT, proskyneo DOES NOT always mean “worship.”

Here is one example where it can't possibly mean “worship.”

Proof:  Mark 15:19

“Also, they would hit him on the head with a reed and spit upon him and, bending their knees, they would do obeisance to him.” (NWT)

“They kept beating His head with a [a]reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.”(New American Standard)

“Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.” (New International Version)

etc.

Almost all Bible's don't translate this as “worship.”  The only reason we can't fault the KJ, is because if you look at what “worship” actually meant when the KJ was produced, it didn't mean what it meant today.

WERE THEY WORSHIPING HIM?

NO.

And the few modern bible's that do have the word “worship”, they also insert words like “pretending” in front of that word, but no such word exists in the originals.

[david]

wor·ship  (wûrshp)
n.
1.
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships
v.tr.
1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.
v.intr.
1. To participate in religious rites of worship.
2. To perform an act of worship.

Question:
If you are spitting in someone's face and hitting them, and then (proskyneo) that person, are you “worshiping” them, or bowing before them?  (If you said “worshiping” them, look at what it means to “worship” above)

[terraricca]

Quote (david @ Nov. 05 2010,00:33)

wor·ship  (wûrshp) n. 1. a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 2. Ardent devotion; adoration. 3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship. v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships v.tr. 1. To honor and love as a deity. 2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1. v.intr. 1. To participate in religious rites of worship. 2. To perform an act of worship. Question: If you are spitting in someone's face and hitting them, and then (proskyneo) that person, are you “worshiping” them, or bowing before them?  (If you said “worshiping” them, look at what it means to “worship” above)

hi david

here i believe is also a good example;;2Ki 5:9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house.
2Ki 5:11 But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy.
2Ki 5:15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God . He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant.”
2Ki 5:16 The prophet answered, “As surely as the LORD lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
2Ki 5:17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD.
2Ki 5:19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.

see what Elisha says to him after he says that he help is king to kneel down to his god.GO IN PEACE' why is that??

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2010,01:24)

In the NT, proskyneo DOES NOT always mean “worship.” Here is one example where it can't possibly mean “worship.” Proof:  Mark 15:19 “Also, they would hit him on the head with a reed and spit upon him and, bending their knees, they would do obeisance to him.” (NWT) “They kept beating His head with a [a]reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.”(New American Standard) “Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.” (New International Version) etc. Almost all Bible's don't translate this as “worship.”  The only reason we can't fault the KJ, is because if you look at what “worship” actually meant when the KJ was produced, it didn't mean what it meant today. WERE THEY WORSHIPING HIM? NO. And the few modern bible's that do have the word “worship”, they also insert words like “pretending” in front of that word, but no such word exists in the originals.

David,
They were mocking the worship of Him.

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