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Shimmer,
Several pages back you said that you do not judge me for worshiping Jesus as the divine Son of God as part of the worship of His Father. Thank you for choosing that path. The Righteous Judge (the Messiah Psalms 72) will not judge me either since He deserves it and is the divine Son of God. I do believe that He will commend my faith. A divine Son deserves the worship of being a divine Son. He is not a foreign god or a carved image but is one with the divine nature of the Father, not foreign to Him in any way.Kathi, I see no big deal in it, people hate it when I say this, but if someone chooses to worship Jesus, Who am I to judge ? That means I would also have to judge the millions of people who also worship Jesus, but I will give my opinion here, how I see things.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:10) Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:33) Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.
The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
I'll give you a couple, if you want. But I've already done this WJ.
MATTHEW 18:26. What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king. And the word is “proskyneo.”
So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested.Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means.
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION. They are not worshipping him. They are mockingly bowing down. Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!!You cannot argue that it does.
DavidYou have not proven that they were not worshipping the King!
The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26
Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei)
But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”.
Besides who is the King that Jesus is speaking of?
“So likewise shall “MY HEAVENLY FATHER” do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses”. Matt 18:25
Are you saying that they will not be worshipping the Father in that day?
You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24
Should I list all of the scriptures that show the word proskyneō being used as worship to the Father? Nine times in just 4 verses Jesus used the word “proskyneo” in his conversation with the woman at the well concerning “True Worship” to the Father. Why did Jesus use this word and yet when they were worshipping him he did not discourage them like Peter did…
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him. But Peter took him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself also am a man“. Acts 10:25, 26
You see, there is that “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him“.
Get that? “FELL DOWN” AND “WORSHIPPED HIM“!!!
Why didn't Jesus “EVER” tell them what Peter told Cornelius?
Should I list the scriptures where the word “proskyneō” is used toward men where it was forbidden?
Why don't you address this point…?
Jesus said…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
WJ
WJ Cornelius is not worshiping Jesus, but Peter…..
\
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
and in my KJ BibleMath. 18:26 The Servant therefore fell down before Him saying,”Master have patience with me and I will pay you all.
In this case Jesus is giving an example how a servant owed the Master, and the Master had patience with Him, and forgave Him His debt….. but that Servant went out and found someone that owed Him and told him to pay up….
I only checked two of your Scriptures prove and they don't say what you did….Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we can go directly to both and worship both…..He is not needed then….I only worship Jehovah God……Because of Scriptures like
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Throughout the Old. Test. Jehovah God is called LORD in all capital letters, while Jesus is Lord. Jehovah God is Almighty God and Jesus is Mighty God…..
The definition of Almighty God and LORD isThe everlasting one
The self-existing one
The immortal oneEven though Jesus now is divine, He was not before He died for us…Otherwise He could not have died for us….
Exd 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, [Be it] according to thy word: that thou mayest know that [there is] none like unto the LORD our God.
Psa 86:6 Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.
In the Hebrew the name Jehovah, Yahweh is listed 6,823 times, while in my KJ it is only written four times……My Husband researched this..
Peace and Love Irene
.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,14:59) This info really should end this back and forth arguing if this is true: “In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
Amen! But it will end nothing here!
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 02 2010,15:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:10) Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:33) Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.
The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
I'll give you a couple, if you want. But I've already done this WJ.
MATTHEW 18:26. What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king. And the word is “proskyneo.”
So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested.Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means.
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION. They are not worshipping him. They are mockingly bowing down. Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!!You cannot argue that it does.
DavidYou have not proven that they were not worshipping the King!
The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26
Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei)
But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”.
Besides who is the King that Jesus is speaking of?
“So likewise shall “MY HEAVENLY FATHER” do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses”. Matt 18:25
Are you saying that they will not be worshipping the Father in that day?
You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24
Should I list all of the scriptures that show the word proskyneō being used as worship to the Father? Nine times in just 4 verses Jesus used the word “proskyneo” in his conversation with the woman at the well concerning “True Worship” to the Father. Why did Jesus use this word and yet when they were worshipping him he did not discourage them like Peter did…
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him. But Peter took him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself also am a man“. Acts 10:25, 26
You see, there is that “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him“.
Get that? “FELL DOWN” AND “WORSHIPPED HIM“!!!
Why didn't Jesus “EVER” tell them what Peter told Cornelius?
Should I list the scriptures where the word “proskyneō” is used toward men where it was forbidden?
Why don't you address this point…?
Jesus said…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
WJ
WJ Cornelius is not worshiping Jesus, but Peter…..
\
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
and in my KJ Bible
IreneOkay, isn't that what I have been saying?
So why would you say that Jesus is not being worshipped in all the scriptures that says he was?
Why didn't Jesus do like Peter and say “I myself am also a man” don't worship me?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,06:59) This info really should end this back and forth arguing if this is true: “In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
kathi, I just read this, and I can.t believe this to be true. Scriptures tell me something else.. …. Even by Jesus own words He said that His Father is greater then He is. All those Scriptures that say LORD in capital letters and Lord for Jesus. You really believe this?
?? Thats all and good luck, we'll see when Christ will return who is right ad who is wrong…….In the mean time I will only worship Almighty God and honor Jesus Mighty God. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, while Almighty God is LORD…..
Peace IreneQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,19:27) Shimmer thats in excuse. You should cast away opinion and ask God directly in a non-biased manner. IF we claim to believe what the scriptures state, than we should be able to have the revelation from the Spirit of truth himself.
Should it matter what different people think?
So with the proof i showed you, now everything is based that “well everyone thinks differently, oh well we have to love everyone”
I believe thats an excuse. There must be TRUTH, there must be one ABOSULUTE truth, and i know that Our God is not a God of confusion.If you want to obey what Jesus said than we must DENY ourselves and what we think, and what we beleive, and deny our mind, and everything about ourselves and Follow Jesus.
Thats what he said as well.
Pick up our cross and follow him.I see Jesus more than just a rabbi, My gosh
He isnt someone who just helped us along the way and tuaght us some basic principles to live by,
NO, just like he said to the diciples to “folllow him”
we must do the same, to follow him in our daily lives,
to have a relationship with Him, because we neeed him! he is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE, no one can go to the father without the son.Jesus said to Peter, if we LOVE HIM, who? Jesus!, we must feed his sheep.
WE cant love the Father, without Jesus, we cant deny the father and accpet Jesus, neither one is ever seperated.
There is no picking one over another!
always in unison!Im not scolding you, im just want you to realize that we cant settle for this excuse that “well everyone has a different understanding of words”
God said he willl perserve his WORD not the english language, nor the greek language nor the hebrew.
His WORD continues to be without contamination becuase he is the AUTHOR of it!
I believe without a doubt that there is an abosulute truth to all these matters.Why settle for what we “think”
I hate the way i “think”, i dont trust my mind, nor my heart.
But I Trust God! because when my mind fails me and my heart betrays me, God will never fail me!So Ask him, and deny yourself
You really want spirital discernment like you cliam, than ask Him. Because Jesus Christ was all about the Spirit, for he moved in Faith, and in Love, and ending confusion, Spreading truth and gave hope the the hopeless and liberty for the captive.
SimplyForgiven I completly agree with your post. All true. Ok.But I was taught by God years ago, its true, believe me or not it doesnt matter because I was. And it was easy, and not confusing, but I wanted to know more, so read everything I could, further and further I drifted, the truth is there, returning to it is harder.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,08:05) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 02 2010,15:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:10) Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:33) Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.
The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
I'll give you a couple, if you want. But I've already done this WJ.
MATTHEW 18:26. What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king. And the word is “proskyneo.”
So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested.Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means.
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION. They are not worshipping him. They are mockingly bowing down. Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!!You cannot argue that it does.
DavidYou have not proven that they were not worshipping the King!
The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26
Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei)
But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”.
Besides who is the King that Jesus is speaking of?
“So likewise shall “MY HEAVENLY FATHER” do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses”. Matt 18:25
Are you saying that they will not be worshipping the Father in that day?
You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24
Should I list all of the scriptures that show the word proskyneō being used as worship to the Father? Nine times in just 4 verses Jesus used the word “proskyneo” in his conversation with the woman at the well concerning “True Worship” to the Father. Why did Jesus use this word and yet when they were worshipping him he did not discourage them like Peter did…
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him. But Peter took him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself also am a man“. Acts 10:25, 26
You see, there is that “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him“.
Get that? “FELL DOWN” AND “WORSHIPPED HIM“!!!
Why didn't Jesus “EVER” tell them what Peter told Cornelius?
Should I list the scriptures where the word “proskyneō” is used toward men where it was forbidden?
Why don't you address this point…?
Jesus said…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
WJ
WJ Cornelius is not worshiping Jesus, but Peter…..
\
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
and in my KJ Bible
IreneOkay, isn't that what I have been saying?
So why would you say that Jesus is not being worshipped in all the scriptures that says he was?
Why didn't Jesus do like Peter and say “I myself am also a man” don't worship me?
WJ
WL You will have to ask Jesus when He comes back…. I have no answer to that. However I gave you Scriptures that tell me to worship Jehovah God our LORD only. While I honor Jesus as Lord and King of Kings and Lord of Lords……
Peace and Love Irene
.True Irene, Scripture says to worship only Jehovah God, it is clear and simple, Jesus told us that, and one of the things Jesus said of himself..
John 14..
'Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do — that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father; and whatever ye may ask in my name, I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if ye ask anything in my name I will do it. 'If ye love me, my commands keep,Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,12:39) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,17:41) Shimmer, I want to remind you that Im the type that you either refute my points or you leave them valid.
Hi SF,Jesus refusing to defend himself (using SF's logic) meant he was guilty?
Your logic is a bit F-L-A-W-E-D no?
Actually that doesnt make any sense
but when your done being a jerk let me know.I made valid points that were ignored,
so its safe to assume that one agreed with them,
and if they didnt than they have the right to refute.I provided evidence not accusations.
maybe if you got your facts right instead of trying to pick at me, than you can provide better arguements to your posts.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,10:05) Irene Okay, isn't that what I have been saying?
So why would you say that Jesus is not being worshipped in all the scriptures that says he was?
Why didn't Jesus do like Peter and say “I myself am also a man” don't worship me?
WJ
Bowed down to ,as I have shown there is a difference, why use the word worship in place of what it clearly says ?All those who worship the Father will worship HIM on spirit, and in truth, not error. And it is the Father whom the son wants us to go to.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 03 2010,02:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,19:27) Shimmer thats in excuse. You should cast away opinion and ask God directly in a non-biased manner. IF we claim to believe what the scriptures state, than we should be able to have the revelation from the Spirit of truth himself.
Should it matter what different people think?
So with the proof i showed you, now everything is based that “well everyone thinks differently, oh well we have to love everyone”
I believe thats an excuse. There must be TRUTH, there must be one ABOSULUTE truth, and i know that Our God is not a God of confusion.If you want to obey what Jesus said than we must DENY ourselves and what we think, and what we beleive, and deny our mind, and everything about ourselves and Follow Jesus.
Thats what he said as well.
Pick up our cross and follow him.I see Jesus more than just a rabbi, My gosh
He isnt someone who just helped us along the way and tuaght us some basic principles to live by,
NO, just like he said to the diciples to “folllow him”
we must do the same, to follow him in our daily lives,
to have a relationship with Him, because we neeed him! he is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE, no one can go to the father without the son.Jesus said to Peter, if we LOVE HIM, who? Jesus!, we must feed his sheep.
WE cant love the Father, without Jesus, we cant deny the father and accpet Jesus, neither one is ever seperated.
There is no picking one over another!
always in unison!Im not scolding you, im just want you to realize that we cant settle for this excuse that “well everyone has a different understanding of words”
God said he willl perserve his WORD not the english language, nor the greek language nor the hebrew.
His WORD continues to be without contamination becuase he is the AUTHOR of it!
I believe without a doubt that there is an abosulute truth to all these matters.Why settle for what we “think”
I hate the way i “think”, i dont trust my mind, nor my heart.
But I Trust God! because when my mind fails me and my heart betrays me, God will never fail me!So Ask him, and deny yourself
You really want spirital discernment like you cliam, than ask Him. Because Jesus Christ was all about the Spirit, for he moved in Faith, and in Love, and ending confusion, Spreading truth and gave hope the the hopeless and liberty for the captive.
SimplyForgiven I completly agree with your post. All true. Ok.But I was taught by God years ago, its true, believe me or not it doesnt matter because I was. And it was easy, and not confusing, but I wanted to know more, so read everything I could, further and further I drifted, the truth is there, returning to it is harder.
Im glad we reached an agreement =)
Sorry if i sounded harsh in anyway.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,17:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,10:05) Irene Okay, isn't that what I have been saying?
So why would you say that Jesus is not being worshipped in all the scriptures that says he was?
Why didn't Jesus do like Peter and say “I myself am also a man” don't worship me?
WJ
Bowed down to ,as I have shown there is a difference, why use the word worship in place of what it clearly says ?All those who worship the Father will worship HIM on spirit, and in truth, not error. And it is the Father whom the son wants us to go to.
ShimmerClear to you, but not to all those that worshipped Jesus in Scripture.
WJ These are plain Scriptures that tell us not to worship Jesus, but the Almighty God Jehovah . .
Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we can go directly to both and worship both…..He is not needed then….I only worship Jehovah God……Because of Scriptures like
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Throughout the Old. Test. Jehovah God is called LORD in all capital letters, while Jesus is Lord. Jehovah God is Almighty God and Jesus is Mighty God…..
The definition of Almighty God and LORD isThe everlasting one
The self-existing one
The immortal oneEven though Jesus now is divine, He was not before He died for us…Otherwise He could not have died for us….
Exd 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, [Be it] according to thy word: that thou mayest know that [there is] none like unto the LORD our God.
Psa 86:6 Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.
In the Hebrew the name Jehovah, Yahweh is listed 6,823 times, while in my KJ it is only written four times……My Husband researched this..
And where are your Scriptures that you are talking about. The one you said tell us to worship Jesus…….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,15:36) Kathi, I see no big deal in it, people hate it when I say this, but if someone chooses to worship Jesus, Who am I to judge ? That means I would also have to judge the millions of people who also worship Jesus, but I will give my opinion here, how I see things.
Hi Shimmer,
You say that you “see no big deal in it,” but is it one of your reasons to not try to find a church? If it is, then it is a dividing factor which takes away unity within the body of Christ.You say that there is a difference between 'worship' and bowing down' but you have been shown that according to your preferred translation, the words bowing down are used in the first commandment and in the words that Jesus used towards satan in the desert. So why isn't proskuneo translated as 'worship' in those cases?
Look at the passage regarding the Ten Commandments, I can't find the word 'worship' in it at all, even though proskuneo is in it.
Exodus 20:1-11 [ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ]
1 `And God speaketh all these words, saying, 2 I [am] Jehovah thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants. 3 `Thou hast no other Gods before Me. 4 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me, 6 and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands. 7 `Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing, for Jehovah acquitteth not him who taketh up His name for a vain thing. 8 `Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; 9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, 10 and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, — 11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it…Here is the passage in the desert, there is no word 'worship' here either:
8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, 9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.' 10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'In some places, YLT translates 'proskuneo' as worship and some places it translates the word as 'bow to' both in reference to the the 'Lord (Jehovah) thy God.'
Can you tell me why they translate the same Greek word as bow to in regards to God in some places and worship to God in other places?
Do you think that all the instances where Jesus is 'bowed to'
by His followers is ok in light of what the YLT says in the first commandment?5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God,
I would really like you to acknowledge this fact, Shimmer.
Thanks!
Irene,
Quote Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we can go directly to both and worship both…..He is not needed then….I only worship Jehovah God……Because of Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
The way you ask that question makes it look like believers NEED the Mediator in order to worship God. That is simply not true. People were worshiping God long before Jesus became the Mediator. Do you doubt that?
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 02 2010,16:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,06:59) This info really should end this back and forth arguing if this is true: “In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
kathi, I just read this, and I can.t believe this to be true. Scriptures tell me something else.. …. Even by Jesus own words He said that His Father is greater then He is. All those Scriptures that say LORD in capital letters and Lord for Jesus. You really believe this??? Thats all and good luck, we'll see when Christ will return who is right ad who is wrong…….In the mean time I will only worship Almighty God and honor Jesus Mighty God. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, while Almighty God is LORD…..
Peace Irene
Irene,Quote kathi, I just read this, and I can.t believe this to be true. Maybe you ought to try to find out if that is what the culture thought regarding this instead of just closing your eyes to it. Maybe it is your understanding that you are leaning on that is keeping you from the true knowledge of the Son of God.
I can understand that you would wonder how someone can be equal to another and then say that the one is greater. The way that I see it is that they are equal in nature. The Father is greater only in that He is the Father, the source.
The image is an exact representation of the original, except that it is an image. In this case, the image is a person as well as the original.
Do you think that it is possible or impossible for the Father to have a Son that is EXACTLY like Him in every way because He gave His Son to be begotten already with ALL things which He Himself has, nature, wisdom, power, truth, grace, etc? The only way in which He would be greater than is by being the source but otherwise, they were both equally perfect.
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,17:42) do you think your name would be more accurate if it was:
“Proskyneo(ing) Jesus”?
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,18:02) Quote Mike Again you create a fallacy and a strawman because why would the Pharisees stone someone for being worshipped.
Yes Mike. Everyone knows the Pharisees where upright and fair chaps who would never kill anyone that didn't deserve to be killed. Wait, that doesn't sound right. Didn't they conduct a mock trial for Jesus? (I'm not here arguing that they stoned Jesus for being worshiped or not worshiped. I'm just saying: Don't hold the Pharisees up as any example in doing the right thing.)
The point I was making, and the point we all need to remember is that the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead. They were looking for any petty excuse whatsoever to have him killed.Now what both David and WJ seem to be saying is that those very same Pharisees would have been alright with someone “God-worshipping” Jesus right in front of them.
I find that utterly ridiculous. That would have given them all the ammo they needed to have Jesus killed. They would have said, “Look! This guy thinks he IS God! He happily accepts “God-worship” from others! That's enough of a charge to have him killed, so let's do it!”
But no, while the Pharisees were bringing in false witnesses to lie about Jesus in an effort to find ANYTHING worth killing him for, it “slipped their minds” that people were worshipping him as if he were God Almighty – AGAINST THE LAW AND THE VERY WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF!
I'm used to Keith being willing to sound silly in an effort to avoid clear scriptures that refute his doctrine………..but David? Et tu Brute'?
peace and love,
mike
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