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Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:24) Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,17:34) What are the actual facts? What does the Bible tell us? 1. God's people worshiped God, as in Jehovah God, the God of the Bible.
2. Who worshiped Jesus or where are we told of anyone “worshiping” Jesus?
3. Jesus told us to worship “God.”
4. Are we told to worship God's son, Jesus?
People who reject the above use unusual words and strange philosophies of men to defend their own ideas.
Also, if you believe a ray of light (whether from the sun or from anywhere) is the same “nature” as the sun, you are wrong.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, GO TOUCH THE SUN. Every day, we are bathed with light rays from the sun. Every day those light rays touch our faces. Yet, how would it feel to press your face to the sun?
The Bible says that no man may see God and yet live. We are not told the same of Jesus.
I often use the comparison that Jehovah is so powerful, to see him with your actual eyes would be like staring at the sun from a foot away.
To see Jesus, is to see the light that comes from the sun.They are different. They are not the same. Jesus said to “worship God.” He knew of what he spoke.
Hi LU,
I'm also wondering how you would respond to what we actually know to be true?
Wow David,
You have a lot of questions for me about this. I'll see how far I get…Quote 1. God's people worshiped God, as in Jehovah God, the God of the Bible. Jehovah God in His fullness includes the Son and the Spirit. His fullness was not revealed in the OT as clearly as it was in the NT.
Quote 2. Who worshiped Jesus or where are we told of anyone “worshiping” Jesus? You won't find anyone in the NWT worshiping Jesus because the NWT was translated through the misunderstanding that Jesus was a created angel and we are clearly told not to worship angels or creatures of creation. If you look at the Greek word for worship, you will find several instances that it was 'given' to Jesus and after He did something supernatural. Did you not know that?
Quote 3. Jesus told us to worship “God.” Yes, and He is part of God, not like creation is but according to His essence, He is part of God.
Quote 4. Are we told to worship God's son, Jesus? We are never told to NOT worship the only begotten Son of God like we are told not to worship the angels, carved images, etc. We are not told to worship God only in part. Since the Son is a part of God in His fullness then He is included in the worship of God. The angels were told to worship the Son by the Father.
Quote People who reject the above use unusual words and strange philosophies of men to defend their own ideas. I don't reject the 'above.' You can see for yourself that the Greek word for worship was what was given to Jesus after He showed His divine power several times.
Quote Also, if you believe a ray of light (whether from the sun or from anywhere) is the same “nature” as the sun, you are wrong. Nevertheless, the Son is the exact representation of the Father's nature as per Heb 1:3. As I said before the sun and the ray is just a parable, not an exact replica. It shows the inseparable quality of the two. They are both light also.
Quote The Bible says that no man may see God and yet live. We are not told the same of Jesus.
I often use the comparison that Jehovah is so powerful, to see him with your actual eyes would be like staring at the sun from a foot away.
To see Jesus, is to see the light that comes from the sun.The Son of God has been seen in different ways so He has the ability to wrap Himself up in the appearance of man, or an angel, or whatever…that was before He became a man which was not an appearance only but actually took on flesh and the limits that went with it while remaining who He was yet emptied of whatever to take on the flesh and become a bondservant. In the transfiguration, Jesus is described as looking quite different than He did before He was transfigured.
You are right that the ball of gas and the light rays are different and so is the Father and the Son. The Father is the source and the Son is the expression of the source.
Quote Jesus said to “worship God.” He knew of what he spoke. Worshiping God in all His fullness and splendor includes the Son and the Spirit. Apart from the Son and the Spirit you just worship God in part.
There, that takes care of those points.
Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:42) “….And to no one else shall I give my own glory.”–Is 48:11 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory,….”–Is 42:8
If the Son is the radiance of that glory, He is a part of that glory that the Father will not give away. He would never give His glory that has the radiance which is His own Son away.Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:40) Quote Mike,
You still don't get it…apart from the Son, God's glory is not radiating from Him.When, in the Hebrew Scriptures, it speaks of “Jehovah's glory” some 80 times, was this glory radiating through the Son, or was it coming from Jehovah?
I would say that the Son is why God's glory is radiant because the Son is the very radiance of God's glory.Quote David,
It seems like nit picking over semantics. If I said 'child of God' you understand that the child is from God, right? That would be easier to understand. If I say son of God…same thing, not confusing. Saying God of God can be confusing so I clarified it for you. I believe that like begat like and that was the case with God who begat like…a begotten God. So the Son is the begotten God of the unbegotten God.–LU
I would not say it's nit picking over semantics.
While I am a “son” I am not the son of you. And while Jesus is called “God” he is nowhere in Scripture called the “God of” the Father.
Do you understand what i am trying to say? Yes, Jesus is called “God” in the Bible (true) and I'm a “son” (true), but I am no more the son of you than Jesus is the “God of” his own Father.WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
–Like what, hundreds of times Jesus is called the “Son of” God. (What is wrong with believing this)?
–Where in Scripture is Jesus called the God of his Father? (Nowhere.)
–About 5 times in scripture (I can find them if you like) the Father is referred to as the “God of” Jesus.You believe Jesus is the God of the Father, and I suspect also believe that the Father is the God of Jesus (as the Bible actually says.)
Do you not find believing both to be at odds with one another? What is your definition of “God”?
Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:59) Quote I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. –Lu
I think we should be looking more closely at this, the word radiance. This seems to be what this is all based on:
'Jesus is the radiance of God's glory.'
The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun.
QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:
Do the light rays from the Sun have the same glory as the sun itself?Interestingly, one definition of “glory” is “radiant beauty.”
If that star sends forth it's light rays, do we thank the rays of light, or do we thank the star that provided them?
Similarly, we worship God, not the creation.
Maybe the light rays ARE the glory of the sun. Without the light rays would the sun be anymore glorious than a large lit up planet? The light rays bring us the benefit of the sun without the light rays we would only have a bright star, no light or heat like we have with the light rays.Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,00:49) Quote David,
It seems like nit picking over semantics. If I said 'child of God' you understand that the child is from God, right? That would be easier to understand. If I say son of God…same thing, not confusing. Saying God of God can be confusing so I clarified it for you. I believe that like begat like and that was the case with God who begat like…a begotten God. So the Son is the begotten God of the unbegotten God.–LU
I would not say it's nit picking over semantics.
While I am a “son” I am not the son of you. And while Jesus is called “God” he is nowhere in Scripture called the “God of” the Father.
Do you understand what i am trying to say? Yes, Jesus is called “God” in the Bible (true) and I'm a “son” (true), but I am no more the son of you than Jesus is the “God of” his own Father.WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
–Like what, hundreds of times Jesus is called the “Son of” God. (What is wrong with believing this)?
–Where in Scripture is Jesus called the God of his Father? (Nowhere.)
–About 5 times in scripture (I can find them if you like) the Father is referred to as the “God of” Jesus.You believe Jesus is the God of the Father, and I suspect also believe that the Father is the God of Jesus (as the Bible actually says.)
Do you not find believing both to be at odds with one another? What is your definition of “God”?
David,
When I read the Nicene Creed, the wording is:Quote We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];by whom all things were made;This is what I believe. If you want to think of it as Light FROM Light, very God FROM very God, that is also what I am saying. It is the same meaning.
David,
You asked what my definition of God is. A being of divine nature, not as partaking of the divine nature because it was given to him because of grace, but a being who naturally is of self-existent divine nature.Quote Jehovah God in His fullness includes the Son and the Spirit. His fullness was not revealed in the OT as clearly as it was in the NT.
No, it certainly wasn't. So, based on what you just said, do you think God's people were worshiping Jehovah, the Father, or do you think they were taught to worship Jehovah and his Son? (The answer is clear.)
They were not worshiping the Son, as you seem to want to, but for thousands of years, God's people:Quote 1. God's people worshiped God, as in Jehovah God, the God of the Bible. I guess they were doing it wrong. Funny that no one corrected them for this error in all that time.
Quote You won't find anyone in the NWT worshiping Jesus because the NWT was translated through the misunderstanding that Jesus was a created angel and we are clearly told not to worship angels or creatures of creation. If you look at the Greek word for worship, you will find several instances that it was 'given' to Jesus and after He did something supernatural. Did you not know that?
Yes I did know that. I even remember the word: Proskyneo. And I know it's basic meaning is to “bow down to.” It can mean more, but that is the basic meaning. As I've discussed with others on here, the fact that proskyneo is applied to someone cannot and does not in itself mean anything. You are right, that based on the word alone, it cannot be argued either way, whether Jesus was worshiped. However, other scriptures make it clear that he directed worship to God, his Father. He always directed attention to his Father.Quote “Jesus told us to worship “God.”” Yes, and He is part of God, not like creation is but according to His essence, He is part of God.
I think that's what we are trying to prove or disprove–whether Jesus is a part of God and therefore worthy of worship. So you can't say that he is God, therefore he told us to worship himself. Remember, Satan was “tempting” Jesus to worship him, Satan, by offering him things. Do you think Jesus response was: 'No, I should only worship myself.'?
Quote We are never told to NOT worship the only begotten Son of God like we are told not to worship the angels, carved images, etc. We are not told to worship God only in part. Since the Son is a part of God in His fullness then He is included in the worship of God. The angels were told to worship the Son by the Father.
A quote would be nice, just so I know which scripture we are talking about. But as you pointed out, it is that word proskyneo that was used, and that in itself doesn't prove anything, as it's basic meaning is to bow down to, or to do obeisance to.Quote Nevertheless, the Son is the exact representation of the Father's nature as per Heb 1:3. As I said before the sun and the ray is just a parable, not an exact replica. It shows the inseparable quality of the two. They are both light also.
Confusing a ball of fire, with the light that comes from it is hazardous to your health.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,16:43) Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:42) “….And to no one else shall I give my own glory.”–Is 48:11 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory,….”–Is 42:8
If the Son is the radiance of that glory, He is a part of that glory that the Father will not give away. He would never give His glory that has the radiance which is His own Son away.
This is one of my least favorite arguments. I'll try to explain why.When we see a scripture that says:
'Jehovah is almighty,' and then we try to prove that Jesus is “almighty” because Jesus is God, hence, it really says 'Jehovah/Jesus are/is almighty.'But the point is, it does actually say:
'Jehovah is almighty'And it doesn't actually say:
'Jesus is almighty.'And if we are trying to prove that Jesus is God or that Jesus is almighty, we can't simply pass by the argument and say that Jesus is Almighty because he is God. Well, him being or not being God is what we are arguing, so do you see the conflict in jumping to that thought?
POP Quiz:
How many times is Jesus called the “Son of” God in Scripture?
A. 0
B. 20
C. >80How many times is Jesus called the “God of” God in scripture?
A. 0
B. 0
C. 0
D. All of the aboveQuote We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];by whom all things were made;Is the Niceene Creed in the OT? I just can't find it.
Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,17:23) POP Quiz: How many times is Jesus called the “Son of” God in Scripture?
A. 0
B. 20
C. >80How many times is Jesus called the “God of” God in scripture?
A. 0
B. 0
C. 0
D. All of the aboveQuote We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];by whom all things were made;Is the Niceene Creed in the OT? I just can't find it.
I can't find the creed in the OT either…but I can't find a lot of the things that you believe in the OT either..for example:Jesus=Michael
Blood Transfusion= Eating Blood
The term “Paradise Earth”
and a plethora of other things that YOU believe
But that doesn't stop you from believing these things and teaching them as the “TRUTH”
David,
Quote Is the Niceene Creed in the OT? I just can't find it. Try the NT. If you need more help, let me know.
Quote very God of very God It seems the first instance of “God” here, it is being used as a verb. Actually, maybe in both instances, it's being used as a verb.
Can you explain what this means?
Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,17:23) POP Quiz: How many times is Jesus called the “Son of” God in Scripture?
A. 0
B. 20
C. >80How many times is Jesus called the “God of” God in scripture?
A. 0
B. 0
C. 0
D. All of the aboveQuote We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];by whom all things were made;Is the Niceene Creed in the OT? I just can't find it.
LU, I noticed in the Nicene Creed, Jesus is called the “Son of” God.But you seem to try to be proving that he is the “God of” God.
Your creed states that he is the Son of God.
You want to prove that he is the God of God.I think maybe you are confused by the “very God of very God.”
(It is confusing.)Another question: If Jesus is the “God of” God Jehovah, then what would it mean if Jehovah is also the “God of” Jesus, as scripture actually states?
In both cases, the first word “God” has to be used descriptively, and the second “God” has to be used as a noun, as in “The God.”
In the case of the Bible, where it 5 times states that the Father is the God of Jesus, what it clearly means is that Jesus, while being a mighty one, a God, has one who is above him, Almighty, in fact, and therefore, Jesus has a God, his Father.
So, if we look at it the other way, and ALSO say that Jesus is the God of the Father, then do we not have a contradiction?
Quote Don't separate God from His radiance or you will be without the true light. –LU
Jesus is called both the “way” and the “light.”
He is our way to God. He is the light that helps us to see and understand God.
No one is suggesting we separate Jesus from God. We are simply suggesting that God is much above Jesus as the Sun is above the light it sends out. (One helps us to see. The other blinds us if we look directly at it.)
Quote i Kathi, To which scripture do you refer where Jesus spoke as “God OF God”?
There in fact are none. Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the “Son of” God, and he is never ever referred to as the “God of” God.
Why can't we just go with what the scriptures repeatedly and clearly say? Even the Niceen Creed says that Jesus was the Son of God, and it of course also confusingly says that Jesus was “very God of very God” whatever that is supposed to mean.
Very son of very son???
Very king of very king??
Confusing.
The Niceen Creed says Jesus was the Son of God, but then it also throws in that confusing phrase.
The Bible is way more clear in that it refers to Jesus as the “Son of” God many many times. (And never the God of God, or very God of very God, or whatever.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,16:36) You can see for yourself that the Greek word for worship was what was given to Jesus after He showed His divine power several times.
Yes Kathi,This is one of those times:
John 9:35-40 NIV
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”
40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”
I can't believe the Pharisees who were WITH Jesus when the man “worshipped” him said nothing. By this point they were already looking for a reason to have him killed. I think being “worshipped” as if he was God would have been reason enough.
And here's another example of the word “proskuneo”:
2 Samuel 1:2 LXX
And it came to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came from the camp, from the people of Saul, and his garments were rent, and earth [was] upon his head:
and it came to pass when he went in to David, that he fell upon the earth, and did obeisance to him.Hmmmm………same word “proskuneo”, yet it seems that it is ONLY when the word is used in referrence to doing obeisance to Jesus that it is translated as “worship”.
But because of the “confusion” over the word “proskuneo”, I love the fact that Daniel uses two different words – one for the homage paid to God, and another for the “servitude” that will be afforded Jesus.
Daniel 3:28 NIV
Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.In this scripture about “God worship”, the NIV correctly translates the Aramaic word “cegid” as “worship”. And they correctly translate the Aramaic word “pelach” as “serve”.
Daniel 7:14 NIV
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.But in this passage about the Messiah, the Aramaic word “pelach” is for some reason translated as “worship” by the NIV. But the word actually means “serve”, just as they translated it in 3:28. Why would they translate a word they KNOW means “serve” as “worship”? It is most likely for the same reason that they translate any use of “proskuneo” in referrence to Jesus as “worship”, yet when that same word was used of Peter, they rendered it as “fell at his feet in reverence”. (Acts 10:25)
And we all know the reason. It is because the trinitarian sponsored NIV, like most major translations EXCEPT the NWT, will purposely mistranslate any words they think they can get away with to lead people to the idea that Jesus is God.
By the way, the LXX translates the Aramaic word that means “worship” as “proskuneo”. But they translate the word that means “serve” as “douleuo”…….which means “serve”.
Anyway, aside from all these definitions, Daniel 7:14 shows in a vision from God, that Jesus will be “served”, but never “worshipped”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,21:36) Quote very God of very God It seems the first instance of “God” here, it is being used as a verb. Actually, maybe in both instances, it's being used as a verb.
Can you explain what this means?
David,
I don't see the word “God” in either case as a verb but as a noun. For instance, if I said “Spirit of God” the word 'Spirit' and the word 'God' are both nouns.Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:16) Quote i Kathi, To which scripture do you refer where Jesus spoke as “God OF God”?
There in fact are none. Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the “Son of” God, and he is never ever referred to as the “God of” God.
Why can't we just go with what the scriptures repeatedly and clearly say? Even the Niceen Creed says that Jesus was the Son of God, and it of course also confusingly says that Jesus was “very God of very God” whatever that is supposed to mean.
Very son of very son???
Very king of very king??
Confusing.
The Niceen Creed says Jesus was the Son of God, but then it also throws in that confusing phrase.
The Bible is way more clear in that it refers to Jesus as the “Son of” God many many times. (And never the God of God, or very God of very God, or whatever.)
It isn't confusing to me. We know that He is God and we know that He is from God the Father. Every time He is called the Son of God He is implying that He is the same type as His Father.
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