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Isaiah 46
5To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
(Collosians 1:15- Image of the Invisible God)
Philipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:)
6They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mike my point about this is that People even today only worship what they can see and touch.
This is the stupidity of humanity.Isaiah 45
21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
(Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1 Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Titus 2:10
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.)
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.)I left you a little comparison between the NT and the OT.
Ill let you decide for your self what to make of it.
Point is that i never said that God only meant not to worship images, but images is what humans typically make into their gods?
what example of a god (that does not have an image) is worshiped?
Its typical that men worship money, people, and a number of things that are corruptiable.
But the texts are in reference to a specfic way Men worship, in the creation of their “own” gods.
they make up these gods, its a psychological factor.
Money is something man made, when a man is worshiped becaues of the support behind him, and a number of things.
this all goes back to the stupidity to be more awed by a psychic than the one True God.Agreed?
SF
keep in mind that money is the modern gold,and silver,
just like cars are modern horses and buggies
the rich have big cars the poor have bicycles they use to have horses and donkey
Pierre
Hi D,
Yeah, I agree with your last comment. When you first brought this up, I was showing you where God said “You never saw me take any form, so don't worship anything with a form”. (Paraphrase…….obviously)
Then you posted your thoughts that God was only talking about idols, which I took to mean that you were saying it was okay to worship Jesus, because he was “real”.
Kathi and I have been discussing the worship of Jesus for some time, and on many threads now. I'm fairly “boned-up” on the subject, but I am always yearning to learn more, so…………where would you like to start?
On the “all knees shall bow”? Maybe the definitions for the words “proskuneo” and “shachah”? How about the fact that both the Greek and Hebrew words rendered as “worship” can just as easily be rendered as “doing obeisance”? In fact, the word “proskuneo” is most often rendered as “bowed down before”, like what the man did to King David…….who is not God. (LXX) It is only in cases involving Jesus that the trinitarian translators render what should be “bowed down before” as “worshipped”. Maybe we could start with the fact that there are two different Aramaic words – one for showing reverence, and the other for “homage paid to God” – and Daniel uses one for reverrence paid to the future Messiah, and the other one for the worship paid to God.
It's your dime, D. If you want, we could start with your OT/NT comparisons. I notice you italicized Titus 2:13…….look for the thread soon. If I can't find an old one, I'll start one, because this scripture comes up alot in support of “Jesus is God”, but like John 1:1, it is merely mistranslated.
peace and love,
mikeWell im glad we have an understanding about the “graven images” now, and the fact that mankind do this often.
about OT/NT comparison
1. OT: That God makes a strong cliam that he is the only saviour and nobody else,
NT: Yet they frequently call God their saviour and also Christ in the same breath. Interchangably.
Who is the saviour?2. That every knee shall bow, whether its about Worship or not lets take a closer look at the verse.
God says they will bow to him, or confess to him,
yet the NT says that they will bow to Christ and confess the name of Jesus.
1 John (i think) says that whoever confeses Jesus is the Son of God, has God dwelling inside them.
So to whom will we bow down too and confess?So…… que onda?
And don't forget men bowed down to King David. Oh no! He must be God too!
Yes SF. Many things said about God are later said about Jesus and even others. Does that make them all “God”?
mike
Here is John Gill regarding the radiance of God's glory from Hebrews 1:3
Quote Ver. 3. Who being the brightness of his glory,…. Or “of glory”; of God the Father, the God of glory, and who is glory itself; so called on account of his glorious nature and perfections and because of the glorious manifestations of them in his works of creation and providence, and in the various dispensations of his grace, and especially in his Son; and because he is the author of all glory, in the creatures, in the whole world, in Christ as man and Mediator, and in his own people. Now Christ is the “brightness” of this, as he is God; he has the same glorious nature and perfections, and the same glorious names, as Jehovah, the Lord of glory, &c. and the same glory, homage, and worship given him: the allusion is to the sun, and its beam or ray: so some render it “the ray of his glory”; and may lead us to observe, that the Father and the Son are of the same nature, as the sun and its ray; and that the one is not before the other, and yet distinct from each other, and cannot be divided or separated one from another: so the phrase hyrqy Nyz, “the brightness of his glory”, is used of the divine Being, in the Chaldee paraphrases {r}; see the Apocrypha. http://www.freegrace.net/gill/
I always like finding my thoughts already written by others hundreds of years ago without me seeing them before I said them. Same Spirit?
What are the actual facts? What does the Bible tell us?
1. God's people worshiped God, as in Jehovah God, the God of the Bible.
2. Who worshiped Jesus or where are we told of anyone “worshiping” Jesus?
3. Jesus told us to worship “God.”
4. Are we told to worship God's son, Jesus?
People who reject the above use unusual words and strange philosophies of men to defend their own ideas.
Also, if you believe a ray of light (whether from the sun or from anywhere) is the same “nature” as the sun, you are wrong.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, GO TOUCH THE SUN. Every day, we are bathed with light rays from the sun. Every day those light rays touch our faces. Yet, how would it feel to press your face to the sun?
The Bible says that no man may see God and yet live. We are not told the same of Jesus.
I often use the comparison that Jehovah is so powerful, to see him with your actual eyes would be like staring at the sun from a foot away.
To see Jesus, is to see the light that comes from the sun.They are different. They are not the same. Jesus said to “worship God.” He knew of what he spoke.
Quote The Father and Son are both God but not two different Gods; the Son as God is just an extension of the ONE GOD and is inseparable to that ONE GOD. Jesus, as the Son of God, is the God OF the ONE GOD. –LU
I noticed in that last sentence you said “Jesus…is the God OF the ONE GOD.”
But don't you have that the other way around? 5 times in scripture, we are told Jesus has a God, that being his Father.
We are never told the opposite, are we?“God” is a word that means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.”
We are told there is only one true God, being the Father, in that he is “Almighty,” without any limit to his mightiness.
Others in the Bible are called gods. The human Israelite Judges were called “gods” with respect to other Israelites. The angels were called “gods” with respect to humans. Moses was made a “god” with respect to Pharoah.Take out the word “god” in the above and insert “mighty one(s)” and it makes perfect sense.
“False gods” are things that people claim have power and worship as such, yet of course, are not powerful at all.
Again, Jehovah, as our Creator, and by right of that creatorship, being “almighty” and described as such 43 times, he alone is to be worshiped, and nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. You can create stories or parables, but the scriptures stand.
Question
Isn't the teaching of the Early Church Fathers “a different form of teaching” than from the first Century Christian?———————-
Answer
Absolutely! After the last apostle (John) died around 100 CE, the “Man of Lawlessness” taught teachings from 100 CE to 325 CE. These false teachings became Church Doctrine in the 4th Century. These teachings (a different teaching) are not the teachings of Christ, but of man and therefore, man's teaching have made God's Word void.Jehovah Witnesses reject these “teaching of Demons” from the Early Church Fathers. You will notice Jesus did not teach a Trinity nor did the 1st century Christian. We find this teaching in the period of the Great Apostasy starting after 100 CE. If a man comes to you from these teachings, turn from him for he has been overtaken by the Demons.
Today, such ones are counted “wicked” and if you even become a sharer with him, you can also lose out on everlasting life.
“If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 10-11) John taught Jesus was the “Word” and this light came into the world. In (John 1:14) he clearly states the “Word” became flesh. He did not teach a Trinity or hell fire, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Thanksgiving, or anything other than Christ.
They in fact deny Christ and then speak blasphemes against him as to claiming to believe. They also deny he died and was risen on third day. Of course, they smile, then tell you they believe but are in fact lying to you. They also claim that the KJV is the word of God and is free from error.
Yet they publicly back and support the KJV. Easter which was founded in 300 CE even replaces the “passover” in the KJV which is “added” by man. In the KJV satan is “God” oh yes, “(God of forces)” (Daniel 11:38) Since they claim the KJV is error free, they accept Satan as God, and they sin willingly, like Adam, Eve, and Judas. Notice the “G” is capitalize making Satan equal to God.
Here's a scripture they claim as truth but then later on will tell you they really don't believe it. “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43) They claim Jesus went off to Paradise the same day he was to die. Anyone who claims the KJV is error free has been overtaken by Satan and has denied the death and the resurrection of Christ. That is why they say he took his body back and therefore deny the ransom sacrifice. These are (False Prophets) and they sprang from Satan between the years 100 CE to 325 CE and continue to to teach these teachings from the demons a little while longer as the last hour of these Last Days come to a close. These wicked ones are dying off now. <~~~~~~~Sacred Secret Revealed) They will not have a resurrection. AMEN.
Brother Rando
PS…. These teachings will be hurled into the lake of fire along with the Harolt (False Religion) and False Prophet (False Teachings) which brings on the Great Tribulation.
Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,01:46) Quote The Father and Son are both God but not two different Gods; the Son as God is just an extension of the ONE GOD and is inseparable to that ONE GOD. Jesus, as the Son of God, is the God OF the ONE GOD. –LU
I noticed in that last sentence you said “Jesus…is the God OF the ONE GOD.”
But don't you have that the other way around? 5 times in scripture, we are told Jesus has a God, that being his Father.
We are never told the opposite, are we?“God” is a word that means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.”
We are told there is only one true God, being the Father, in that he is “Almighty,” without any limit to his mightiness.
Others in the Bible are called gods. The human Israelite Judges were called “gods” with respect to other Israelites. The angels were called “gods” with respect to humans. Moses was made a “god” with respect to Pharoah.Take out the word “god” in the above and insert “mighty one(s)” and it makes perfect sense.
“False gods” are things that people claim have power and worship as such, yet of course, are not powerful at all.
Again, Jehovah, as our Creator, and by right of that creatorship, being “almighty” and described as such 43 times, he alone is to be worshiped, and nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. You can create stories or parables, but the scriptures stand.
David,
Jesus is the God of, as in from, the one God, the Father.The parable of the ball of gas and the light ray and the heat is just a parable. The point of it is to show how something can come from something else, be distinct, yet inseparable, and be considered as part of the fullness of the sun. Don't try so hard to miss it by over analyzing
David,
I like what you say above.
You are perfectly correct without equivocation.
To All,
Please all take note of David's post above.
Quote They also deny he died and was risen on third day. Of course, they smile, then tell you they believe but are in fact lying to you. They also claim that the KJV is the word of God and is free from error. –dee
Hi Dee.
Are you referring to the “early Church fathers” that your post was about, or about Jehovah's Witnesses, who you also included in your post. Who are you referring to?
OK, I checked the site link. I guess you are not referring to JWs. But you can't be referring to the early church “Fathers.” Are you just referring to most people?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,06:15) Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,01:46) Quote The Father and Son are both God but not two different Gods; the Son as God is just an extension of the ONE GOD and is inseparable to that ONE GOD. Jesus, as the Son of God, is the God OF the ONE GOD. –LU
I noticed in that last sentence you said “Jesus…is the God OF the ONE GOD.”
But don't you have that the other way around? 5 times in scripture, we are told Jesus has a God, that being his Father.
We are never told the opposite, are we?“God” is a word that means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.”
We are told there is only one true God, being the Father, in that he is “Almighty,” without any limit to his mightiness.
Others in the Bible are called gods. The human Israelite Judges were called “gods” with respect to other Israelites. The angels were called “gods” with respect to humans. Moses was made a “god” with respect to Pharoah.Take out the word “god” in the above and insert “mighty one(s)” and it makes perfect sense.
“False gods” are things that people claim have power and worship as such, yet of course, are not powerful at all.
Again, Jehovah, as our Creator, and by right of that creatorship, being “almighty” and described as such 43 times, he alone is to be worshiped, and nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. You can create stories or parables, but the scriptures stand.
David,
Jesus is the God of, as in from, the one God, the Father.The parable of the ball of gas and the light ray and the heat is just a parable. The point of it is to show how something can come from something else, be distinct, yet inseparable, and be considered as part of the fullness of the sun. Don't try so hard to miss it by over analyzing
Hi Lu.Your logic is bad.
You say:
“David,
Jesus is the God of, as in from, the one God, the Father.”We are all from the one God, the Father. We are not therefore “God of” the Father. Rather, he is the God of us.
Just because Jesus is “from” God, this does not make him the “God of” the Father. Rather, Jehovah is the God of Jesus, as SCRIPTURE STATES 5 TIMES. (Not the other way around.)
When people or even the Bible uses the expression “God of” as in God of Israel or God of my people, or God of David, it means and always means that Jehovah is the one who is God and that he is “God of” Israel, or God of David, or God of Jesus.
Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,17:34) What are the actual facts? What does the Bible tell us? 1. God's people worshiped God, as in Jehovah God, the God of the Bible.
2. Who worshiped Jesus or where are we told of anyone “worshiping” Jesus?
3. Jesus told us to worship “God.”
4. Are we told to worship God's son, Jesus?
People who reject the above use unusual words and strange philosophies of men to defend their own ideas.
Also, if you believe a ray of light (whether from the sun or from anywhere) is the same “nature” as the sun, you are wrong.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, GO TOUCH THE SUN. Every day, we are bathed with light rays from the sun. Every day those light rays touch our faces. Yet, how would it feel to press your face to the sun?
The Bible says that no man may see God and yet live. We are not told the same of Jesus.
I often use the comparison that Jehovah is so powerful, to see him with your actual eyes would be like staring at the sun from a foot away.
To see Jesus, is to see the light that comes from the sun.They are different. They are not the same. Jesus said to “worship God.” He knew of what he spoke.
Hi LU,
I'm also wondering how you would respond to what we actually know to be true?Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,06:54) David, I like what you say above.
You are perfectly correct without equivocation.
To All,
Please all take note of David's post above.
Hi JA.would it be weird if every time I make a post, I quote your words under my post?
Quote Mike,
You still don't get it…apart from the Son, God's glory is not radiating from Him.When, in the Hebrew Scriptures, it speaks of “Jehovah's glory” some 80 times, was this glory radiating through the Son, or was it coming from Jehovah?
“….And to no one else shall I give my own glory.”–Is 48:11
“I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory,….”–Is 42:8
Hi David,
Are you SURE is doesn't say, “To no one else………EXCEPT MY SON”?
I'm just asking for clarification.
Great post, btw. I too await Kathi's response.
mike
Quote I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. –Lu
I think we should be looking more closely at this, the word radiance. This seems to be what this is all based on:
'Jesus is the radiance of God's glory.'
The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun.
QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:
Do the light rays from the Sun have the same glory as the sun itself?Interestingly, one definition of “glory” is “radiant beauty.”
If that star sends forth it's light rays, do we thank the rays of light, or do we thank the star that provided them?
Similarly, we worship God, not the creation.Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,21:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,06:15) Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,01:46) Quote The Father and Son are both God but not two different Gods; the Son as God is just an extension of the ONE GOD and is inseparable to that ONE GOD. Jesus, as the Son of God, is the God OF the ONE GOD. –LU
I noticed in that last sentence you said “Jesus…is the God OF the ONE GOD.”
But don't you have that the other way around? 5 times in scripture, we are told Jesus has a God, that being his Father.
We are never told the opposite, are we?“God” is a word that means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one, etc.”
We are told there is only one true God, being the Father, in that he is “Almighty,” without any limit to his mightiness.
Others in the Bible are called gods. The human Israelite Judges were called “gods” with respect to other Israelites. The angels were called “gods” with respect to humans. Moses was made a “god” with respect to Pharoah.Take out the word “god” in the above and insert “mighty one(s)” and it makes perfect sense.
“False gods” are things that people claim have power and worship as such, yet of course, are not powerful at all.
Again, Jehovah, as our Creator, and by right of that creatorship, being “almighty” and described as such 43 times, he alone is to be worshiped, and nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. You can create stories or parables, but the scriptures stand.
David,
Jesus is the God of, as in from, the one God, the Father.The parable of the ball of gas and the light ray and the heat is just a parable. The point of it is to show how something can come from something else, be distinct, yet inseparable, and be considered as part of the fullness of the sun. Don't try so hard to miss it by over analyzing
Hi Lu.Your logic is bad.
You say:
“David,
Jesus is the God of, as in from, the one God, the Father.”We are all from the one God, the Father. We are not therefore “God of” the Father. Rather, he is the God of us.
Just because Jesus is “from” God, this does not make him the “God of” the Father. Rather, Jehovah is the God of Jesus, as SCRIPTURE STATES 5 TIMES. (Not the other way around.)
When people or even the Bible uses the expression “God of” as in God of Israel or God of my people, or God of David, it means and always means that Jehovah is the one who is God and that he is “God of” Israel, or God of David, or God of Jesus.
David,
It seems like nit picking over semantics. If I said 'child of God' you understand that the child is from God, right? That would be easier to understand. If I say son of God…same thing, not confusing. Saying God of God can be confusing so I clarified it for you. I believe that like begat like and that was the case with God who begat like…a begotten God. So the Son is the begotten God of the unbegotten God.
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