Worship God the Father only?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2010,15:42)

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 21 2010,07:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 21 2010,15:42) Quote (Baker @ Oct. 19 2010,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,07:12) Hi Irene, If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah?  Think about it, there are 10 commandments.  Which one tells us to honor the Messiah?  Was it not important?  All the prophets point towards Him. What do the prophets have to do with worship of Almuighty God?  Jesus is not Almighty God, He is Mighty God and our Messiah, our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  But I don't believe for a minute that we should worship Him.   A commandment to honor the Messih?  I don't know of any, and neither does Georg, To honior Him does not mean to worship Him at all.   We honor Him because He is our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  You are dead wrong….. Peace and Love Irene Irene, Do you think that worshiping the Father with His Spirit and His Son is idol worship?  Where does it say that? Kathi!  I worship Almighty God only because Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then He i.  He is LORD and Almighty God and Jesus is Lord and Mighty God.  The great Commandment teaches that we should Love God with all of our heart and with all of our soul, and all of our mind.  And what does the fist commandment say.   “I am the LORD Thy God, Thou shall have no other God before Me…….. Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we could just go to both at the same time and worship bgoth? I ask Almighty God in Jesus Holy Name, when I pray to Almighty God, the God of the Universe…. Peace adn Love Irene Irene, Mike, and Pierre I see the Son as much a part of the Father as a ray is part of the sun.  The Spirit is as much a part of both the Father and the Son as the heat is that comes from the rays and ultimately from the sun.  You cannot benefit from the sun apart from it's rays, can you.  Those who worshiped the sun, did they not include the rays as part of the sun and the heat as from the sun?  I am not saying to worship the sun, so don't go there.  I am giving you an analogy so that you can see why I worship the Father with His Son and His Spirit.   The sun is a big ball of gas, right?  The light rays are from the sun, light from light, the light rays (the Son) bring us light (He reveals the Father) and the heat that comforts us (the Spirit).  I am not saying that the Spirit is an impersonal energy force so let me make that clear. Do you see that IF I were a sun worshiper, I would worship the sun with the rays and heat that comes from it, not just the big ball of gas that is the source of the light rays and heat. Please notice that in this analogy, the big ball of gas represents the Father, the light rays represent the Son, the heat represent the Spirit.  There is only one ball of gas, not three balls of gas.  There are light rays that are not the ball of gas itself but from the ball of gas as a natural extension from it and the heat that is a natural extension from the ball of gas through the rays. There ya go.  Think about a gardener when planting their seeds in a place to receiver 'full sun.'  The full sun is not just the ball of gas 93 million miles away but also the light rays and heat that comes from it. So when I say that you worship God in part, it is like you are 'worshiping' the sun apart from its light rays and heat.  Come into the brighter day and out of the cloudy day with a fuller understanding of the 'full' God. We turn our night into day by obtaining the Lord Jesus, the light from the light. 1 Thess 5:5-11 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. NASU We only have knowledge in part: 1 Cor 13:8-13 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. NASU Could this be when God began emitting His light, the beginning of light rays so to speak as His Son? Gen 1:3 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. This goes along with the analogy: Matt 24:29-30 The Glorious Return 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. NASU Heb 1:3 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, NASU A side analogy, the stars are the false gods, they are not the center of our universe, they are not our sun but we notice them when we are 'in the dark' so to speak. Matt 24:29 THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. NASU BTW, I appreciate your love and concern for me and I have the same for you and that is why I posted this.  I pray it 'enlightens' you, LOL.

This is the post that gives the analogy of the giant ball of gas in the sky, the light rays emitting from that ball of gas, and the heat of the giant ball of gas in the sky brought to us by those light rays.

I think of that giant ball of gas which is 93 million miles away, with the light rays and the heat as the fullness of the sun.

Think of the giant ball of gas as if, it at one time, only 'contained' the light but did not yet emit the light that would be 'begotten' or 'emitted' as light rays when there was actually something to receive the light rays. Think of the ball of gas not yet emitting the rays and the earth was covered with darkness. Then God said the 'word' and spoke “let there be light” and there was light rays emitting or begotten from Himself, that ball of gas, which extended the light from the ball of gas down to the earth but did not take anything away from the giant ball of gas and did not separate from the same.

Think of the giant ball of gas as being God, the Father and think about that giant ball of gas as being the source of light and being full of light yet to be emitted. Once that light was brought forth as light rays, the firstborn of all creation was begotten (think of the Son of God as the light rays), but not from something that didn't exist always with the big ball of gas but from the light that was always already there, just not emitted. Then, we have the heat that proceeds from that big ball of gas (think about that as if the heat were the comforter, the Holy Spirit that comes to us) through the light rays (the Son) and to us.

This should help you see that God's glory is seen with the Son as His radiance and His Spirit by which He comforts us. The fullness of God is not apart from His radiance or comfort and that is our God to worship. Truly that should be a PTL but you guys want to tear the glory of God apart and try to separate it to help you feel better about what you have been persuading yourselves. You are only comfortable to worship God in part. You are missing the bigger picture of God and who He is in His fullness.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

Are you now saying that Jesus HAS the glory of God? Or does Jesus, just like everything else God made, “reflect” the glory of God?

Please clarify.

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I'm not saying that the Son 'reflects' the glory of God but IS the actual RADIANCE OF the glory of God and it is creation (not the Son) that reflects that radiance (the light of Christ). The 'radiance' is the light from the light source…the 'light of light.'

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,07:15)

This should help you see that God's glory is seen with the Son as His radiance

Hi Kathi,

No one here is arguing that Jesus doesn't reflect God's glory.  But you seem to lose sight of the fact that it is GOD'S glory, not God/Jesus' glory.

And are we supposed to worship things that radiate GOD'S glory, or ONLY the ONE who that glory belongs to?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,07:29)

Mike, I'm not saying that the Son 'reflects' the glory of God but IS the actual RADIANCE OF the glory of God and it is creation (not the Son) that reflects that radiance (the light of Christ).  The 'radiance' is the light from the light source…the 'light of light.'

Read your bolded words above, Kathi. The glory in question belongs ONLY TO GOD. And God will share it with NO OTHER. It doesn't say God will not share His glory with “anyone EXCEPT His Son”, does it?

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You still don't get it…apart from the Son, God's glory is not radiating from Him. The Son does not reflect God's glory but is God's the radiance of that glory.

The Son and Spirit are part of the glory that comes from Him, not recipients or reflectors of God's glory. Like the light rays are inseparable from the sun so is the Son and Spirit inseparable from the Father. They are not the moon that only reflects the light rays, that is more like the believer's-the moon.

[mikeboll64]

Kathi,

Let's stop playing word games, okay? Do you think Jesus, as the Son of God is:

A. An individual being who is the Son of God?

B. The same exact being as God Himself?

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
These 'word games' are word 'pictures' and Jesus used this method in His many parables.

Jesus, as the Son of God, is the 'extension' of God Himself in the distinct person of the Son, yet that distinct person is inseparable from God.  

Similar to the light rays that are from the giant ball of gas as an 'extension' of the ball of gas and inseparable from the ball of gas but not the ball of gas itself.  The light rays do not take away or lessen the ball of gas while they emit away from it.  The light is the same but one is not emitted (unbegotten) and the other is emitted (begotten), one is the source and the other reveals the source and has the true nature of the source.

There is one ball of gas, not two or three, and one group of light rays, and one type of heat.  The light rays and the giant ball of gas are both the light, not two different types of light; the rays are just an extension of the one light.  The Father and Son are both God but not two different Gods; the Son as God is just an extension of the ONE GOD and is inseparable to that ONE GOD.  Jesus, as the Son of God, is the God OF the ONE GOD.  Jesus is not a different type of God but an extension of the one true God, the Father.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I'm going to be gone for a while…church was so good this morning and I want to go tonight. There were a couple of times during the service that people, several, came to kneel at the altar and there were a lot of lifting of hands and praising the Lord. During this last song, which I absolutely love, many were lifting their hands to the Lord and by the end, the church was standing up and rejoicing and clapping…and that is a Baptist church The presence of God was so strong today. Here is the song that was sung:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1WYO7L-IiY

Catch ya later, K

[terraricca]

kathi

you say;; So, Pierre and Mike, you don't need to concern yourselves with being worshiped any time soon, or even later because God will never give you that glory which His Son is the radiance of.

is this mean you will???

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,15:07)

Mike, You still don't get it…apart from the Son, God's glory is not radiating from Him.  The Son does not reflect God's glory but is God's the radiance of that glory. The Son and Spirit are part of the glory that comes from Him, not recipients or reflectors of God's glory.  Like the light rays are inseparable from the sun so is the Son and Spirit inseparable from the Father.  They are not the moon that only reflects the light rays, that is more like the believer's-the moon.

kathi

i do not think you understand Gods glory,
could you explain what it is to you ??

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 19 2010,12:11)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,02:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 17 2010,19:57) A. Again What translation are you using, and if you would like lets go back to the hebrew of this passage. im going to post KJV Det4:15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. And even the context on 28-29 speak of gods who cant speak and that are man-made. I would strictly say that in this passage that we should not worship any Graven Images, Images created by Man to worship a God. Hi Dennison, Let me get this straight…….is it YOUR contention that God was saying it was okay to worship men and animals and stars and such, as long as we didn't worship “IMAGES” or “LIKENESSES” of those things? And I don't know of any scripture that specifically says, “You CAN'T worship Jesus”.  But I think that's clearly implied by the OT saying “Worship and serve ONLY Jehovah”, and that command is driven home in the NT where Jesus himself repeats it. mike I didnt make any contention mike. I Just think the point of the SPECFIC scripture you mentioned was in reference in man made images that Men worshipped. In ACTUALITY, everything that MAN worshiped they carved into stone.  They make some sort of relic of it eventually, and pay homage to it evetually.   People worshiped volcanoes and had images of the demon God that supposed to lived there. They worshiped the Sun and made a beastly image of Ra or a human image of Apollo. Usually human makes manmade images of what they worship. The scripture you specfically mention talks about such things. Psalms also talks about the stupid idols that cant do anything for them because they cant move, hear, or speak. Romans 1 talks about these same idols and how people worshiped beastly corruptable things. My contentions it to talk about what the scripture is really referring to. Jesus said DONT follow other people who claim to be Jesus! This is almost connected to be in the same logic. Where does it say in the NT that Jesus said we must worship God only? i just want to see what scripture your referring to.

Hi Mike,
I been wanting to respond to this correctly for the longest time to your reference to “Graven Images”

Isaiah 40
18To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
21Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

Isaiah 44
8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
9They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

And the reason why I post these scriptures is to show that People in ancient times only worshiped “what they can see and touch”
Every god they worshiped had an image, and if you study other religions and ancient religions, every god had in image. Even Ceaser and the Empereors and even Ra, Apollo, who is the Sun.
You have to understand how people only belived by seeing, and not by faith.
The Hebrews also commited that same error when they made the golden Calf.
You have to understand the psychological belief system they had back than, where the gods were made of gold and silver and the WHOLE economy of the world were moved by these religions and pagan beliefs and homages.

Psalm 115
1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us
      but to your name be the glory,
      because of your love and faithfulness.
2 Why do the nations say,
      “Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in heaven;
      he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold,
      made by the hands of men.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
      eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but cannot hear,
      noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but cannot feel,
      feet, but they cannot walk;
      nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them,
      and so will all who trust in them.

Thats why God was So MAD at people for doing such a dumb thing. this is what Romans 1 refers to.
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
The Stupidity of Humanity

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,08:47)

Jesus, as the Son of God, is the 'extension' of God Himself in the distinct person of the Son, yet that distinct person is inseparable from God.

Hi Kathi,

That's trinitarian-style gobbledygook and gibberish. Is Jesus GOD HIMSELF, or is he NOT?

And I'm trying to hear your song, but for some reason, it's taking forever to load tonight. I'll be patient, for I'm sure it will be one of those songs that confuse Jesus with God Himself……..which is probably why you are drawn to it.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 25 2010,09:42)

Thats why God was So MAD at people for doing such a dumb thing. this is what Romans 1 refers to. 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. The Stupidity of Humanity

Yeah, one of my favorite all time passages is Isaiah 44:16-17;

16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
      over it he prepares his meal,
      he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
      He also warms himself and says,
      “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”

17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
      he bows down to it and worships.
      He prays to it and says,
      “Save me; you are my god.”

I laugh every time I read it.  I just picture God with a bewildered look on His face thinking, “You big dummy!  You just burned half of your “god” in the fire, and then you ask the other half to save you!”  

Anyway, back to your point.  Do you think it was God's intention to command us to not worship ONLY man-made idols?  Do you think it was His intention that it is okay for us to worship living things?

Isaiah 42:6-8 NIV
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
      I will take hold of your hand.
      I will keep you and will make you
      to be a covenant for the people
      and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,
      to free captives from prison
      and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
      I will not give my glory to another
      or my praise to idols.

This is a prophecy about Jesus, yet even after announcing the good things this Messiah will accomplish, Jehovah makes it clear that He will not give HIS glory to another.  And this is where you and Kathi “fall off the wagon”.  You think that because of the great things God's Messiah has done and will do, that this SERVANT of God somehow deserves the same honor and glory and worship as the God he serves.

Here's another:

Isaiah 40:13-18 NIV
13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD,
      or instructed him as his counselor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
      and who taught him the right way?
      Who was it that taught him knowledge
      or showed him the path of understanding?

15 Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;
      they are regarded as dust on the scales;
      he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.

16 Lebanon is not sufficient for altar fires,
      nor its animals enough for burnt offerings.

17 Before him all the nations are as nothing;
      they are regarded by him as worthless
      and less than nothing.

18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
      What image will you compare him to?

This shows the the ONLY true God, Jehovah Almighty has recieved no instruction of any kind.  Jesus, on the other hand clearly says he only does what the Father taught him.

And verse 18 makes it clear that NO ONE, can be compared to God.  And verse 8 above, and 18 here both mention “idols” AND others.

So, are you implying it is okay to worship things other than God………as long as they are not man-made idols?

If not, then what exactly WAS your point?

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2010,20:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,08:47) Jesus, as the Son of God, is the 'extension' of God Himself in the distinct person of the Son, yet that distinct person is inseparable from God. Hi Kathi, That's trinitarian-style gobbledygook and gibberish.  Is Jesus GOD HIMSELF, or is he NOT? And I'm trying to hear your song, but for some reason, it's taking forever to load tonight.  I'll be patient, for I'm sure it will be one of those songs that confuse Jesus with God Himself……..which is probably why you are drawn to it. mike

Mike,
No that isn't exactly the trinity.

Did you listen to the song? Right out of Revelations

At church tonight I met a newly married couple that had a very interesting story. They were maybe in their early 40's. She was married before but her husband died 4 years ago. He had been living as a hobo for the past 20 years and didn't want to have anything to do relationships. She met him under a bridge when she was seeking out homeless people to minister to. She invited him to church and he turned her down. A couple of weeks later she 'coincidentally' (not) ran into him several miles away on the other side of town doing a few days work for her brother who knew nothing about their prior meeting. She again invited him to church and he went…dirty, long beard, unkept, and using foul language. The pastors and others welcomed him and extended kindness and basically intrigued him because they were so different than he had known. Well he kept coming back when, during one service the pastor gave an invitation and he felt God strongly telling him to go forward that he leaped out of his chair and grabbed the pastor off the stage and brought him down to his knees with him. He accepted Christ right there and immediately his craving for the two six packs of beer that he had been drinking daily left him as well as his desire to smoke. Anyway, after several months of friendship with the lady, they started dating and they married a month or so ago. They looked so cute together and they talk of their ongoing friendship as it continues to grow in their marriage. Isn't that a nice story? I asked him how it was going with living in a home. He said that it has been a big adjustment that hasn't been easy. Sleeping in a bed makes him real sore so during the night, he often ends up sleeping on the floor.

I can't even imagine living outside for 20 years, hopping trains for a lifestyle.

Goodnight!

[mikeboll64]

Praise be to Jah! Good story Kathi.

goodnight

[Lightenup]

You needed to hear a good church story

Goodnight for real!!!

[david]

For my own sake, for my own sake I shall act, for how could one let oneself be profaned? And to no one else shall I give my own glory.–Is 48:11

“I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory,….”–Is 42:8

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka‧vohdh′, which basically has the sense of “heaviness.” (Compare Na 2:9, where ka‧vohdh′ is rendered “heavy amount,” and 1Sa 4:18, where the related adjective ka‧vedh′ is rendered “heavy.”) Thus, glory may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth (Ps 49:16), position, or reputation. (Ge 45:13) The Greek equivalent of ka‧vohdh′ is do′xa, which originally meant “opinion; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” Among its senses are repute or “honor” (Lu 14:10), splendor (Lu 2:9; 1Co 15:40), and that which brings honor to its owner or maker (1Co 11:7).

[david]

“Mike,
I'm not saying that the Son 'reflects' the glory of God but IS the actual RADIANCE OF the glory of God and it is creation (not the Son) that reflects that radiance (the light of Christ). The 'radiance' is the light from the light source…the 'light of light.' “

Hi Lightenup.
Could you define how you understand the word “radiance.” I think Radiance is the quality of being radiant. But you continue to use that word as if it were a noun. I'm just wondering if you could define what you mean by radiance. I think that would clear up some confusion.

[Baker]

Kathi! I too like that story, however, that does not give anyone a reason to worship Jesus. All worship go to our Heavenly Father. I asked this before why would Christ be our Mediator if we can go directly to Him and worship both, Father and Son. The glory is that He not only is a Spirit Being now, but that He also is divine. He sits next to Jehovah God and not that He is Jehovah God, and Mighty God and not Almighty God……..
Peace and Love Irene

[Author]

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