- This topic has 2,141 replies, 60 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 21 2010,15:42) Quote (Baker @ Oct. 19 2010,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,07:12) Hi Irene,
If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah? Think about it, there are 10 commandments. Which one tells us to honor the Messiah? Was it not important? All the prophets point towards Him.
What do the prophets have to do with worship of Almuighty God? Jesus is not Almighty God, He is Mighty God and our Messiah, our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. But I don't believe for a minute that we should worship Him. A commandment to honor the Messih? I don't know of any, and neither does Georg, To honior Him does not mean to worship Him at all. We honor Him because He is our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. You are dead wrong…..
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Do you think that worshiping the Father with His Spirit and His Son is idol worship? Where does it say that?
Kathi! I worship Almighty God only because Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then He i. He is LORD and Almighty God and Jesus is Lord and Mighty God. The great Commandment teaches that we should Love God with all of our heart and with all of our soul, and all of our mind. And what does the fist commandment say.
“I am the LORD Thy God, Thou shall have no other God before Me……..
Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we could just go to both at the same time and worship bgoth? I ask Almighty God in Jesus Holy Name, when I pray to Almighty God, the God of the Universe….
Peace adn Love IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 21 2010,22:45) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,17:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,14:13) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,13:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,10:47) Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
Kathiwhat is that
you do not make sense,
could spell it out so i can understand what you are saying???
Pierre
Pierre,
Which part confuses you?
KathiHe(Jesus) is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
this is what is part of your desire to make the son and the father equal;
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Like begets like and when the begetter is perfect what else would He begat but perfect?
Kathihow are these words lining up with yours;;
Jas 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
Jas 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
Jas 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Jas 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
Jas 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he doesif you cannot understand what is written plainly in scriptures ,ask in prayers but do not change the spirit of Christ for yours.
Pierre
Kathi:
Quote Mike,
We all worship the Father in part because we do not see Him as He fully is.
I'm not sure what that even means. I worship Jehovah Almighty, Creator of the heavens, earth, and EVERYTHING in them……including Jesus. I worship Him COMPLETELY even though I could not possibly “fully” know Him.Kathi:
Quote When Paul said those words he had more understanding of God than before He met Jesus. Worshiping Jesus only adds to the worship of God, it does not take anything away from the Father.
That makes no sense to me. Paul implied that he ONLY worshipped Jehovah………..AFTER he had “met” Jesus. Do you dare assert that Paul “knew” Jesus was “God”? Please don't take your love for the Christ that far Kathi. How many scriptures where Paul calls Jehovah “the Father AND God of our Lord Jesus Christ” will it take for you to know that Paul knew the difference between God and His Son? Paul is the one who said, “we have but ONE God……..THE FATHER”.Kathi:
Quote Surely God would know that His Son would be worshiped by many in the future.
And that's quite possibly why He said we shall have NO OTHER GODS before Him. And maybe that's why it's specifically said to worship ONLY Jehovah in the OT, the Gospels, and the Epistles……………by Jehovah Himself, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus and Paul. God is giving you the point blank answer here Kathi – you just won't accept it. He also foreknew that many people would break other commands He made, but what else can He do besides tell us what's right and wrong and leave us to our own free wills?Kathi:
Quote Can you honestly say that to worship the Father together with the Son and Holy Spirit is the same as worshiping an idol God?
Are you back on the trinitarian band wagon again? Since when do you worship the Holy Spirit as if it is a separate person?Kathi:
Quote It is clear that the early church father's worshiped the Son, I have shown you this, even Eusebius.
No, what you showed me is that Eusebius said he “proskuneos” Jesus as “[a] mighty one”. And there is no way for you to prove any different, so let's not sully the man's good name. Besides, does Eusebius override scripture?Kathi, I know that Irene, Pierre and myself love and care about you. So I hope you take our input as “help from friends”, not like a bunch of bullies picking on you. I say that to you for the same reason you made the uplifting post to me in “procreated” a few weeks ago.
So, if Paul definitely shows throughout scripture that he knows the difference between our ONLY God Jehovah and our Lord Jesus, and he says he worships ONLY the same God the Jews who didn't even believe in Jesus worshipped, can you emulate him?
Do you have it in you to believe the words of scripture and obey them over your belief that it's okay with God if we also worship another?
peace and love,
mikeQuote It is clear that the early church father's worshiped the Son All the problems and all the confusion is over the english word “worship” which today means something very specific. However, the words from which it is translated from are not so specific. THERE IN LIES THE PROBLEM.
The Greek word pro·sky·néo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.
For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.Think about those last few examples, and what they tell us.
Now, let's see how translators have added to the confusion: They have wrongly inserted “worship” where it often does not belong. (The word can be translated in more than one way.)
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow pro·sky·néo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”And making this even more confusing, we have this: When that quote above in the KJ was written, the english word “worship” was understood much like the greek word it is translated from. Today, we still have hints of this, when we for example speak of certain ones as “Your Worship.” Those ones are not worshiped, but they are highly honored.
Where did everyone go? Has this board slowed down? And, I don't think I'm really back. Just passing through. But thank's for the “great.”
Quote (david @ Oct. 22 2010,11:44) Where did everyone go? Has this board slowed down? And, I don't think I'm really back. Just passing through. But thank's for the “great.”
Well I dont know who you mean by everyone?KJ has taken a long break.
WJ passes by here and there.
I havent seen shimmer in awhile.A number of people havent really been on here much.
I just came back from my week break so yes i believe it has slowed down.And ya im happy your back! I like your posts, it includes alot of research to look up.
You help me grow =)“Worship (PROSKUNEO) is a conscious glorification of God flowing from an inner attitude of lowly submission to His authority and awe at His majesty. This glorification can be expressed by prostration and by words. Since God can hear the thoughts of the heart, the words do not have to be audible. The basic meaning of the word for 'worship' (PROSKUNEO) is to express, by words or by bowing down, profound and submissive respect or adoration.”
“The hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
“Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” (Rom 12:1)
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you”.
Hi David,
Yea! It's great that you're back!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Baker @ Oct. 21 2010,07:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 21 2010,15:42) Quote (Baker @ Oct. 19 2010,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,07:12) Hi Irene,
If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah? Think about it, there are 10 commandments. Which one tells us to honor the Messiah? Was it not important? All the prophets point towards Him.
What do the prophets have to do with worship of Almuighty God? Jesus is not Almighty God, He is Mighty God and our Messiah, our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. But I don't believe for a minute that we should worship Him. A commandment to honor the Messih? I don't know of any, and neither does Georg, To honior Him does not mean to worship Him at all. We honor Him because He is our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. You are dead wrong…..
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Do you think that worshiping the Father with His Spirit and His Son is idol worship? Where does it say that?
Kathi! I worship Almighty God only because Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then He i. He is LORD and Almighty God and Jesus is Lord and Mighty God. The great Commandment teaches that we should Love God with all of our heart and with all of our soul, and all of our mind. And what does the fist commandment say.
“I am the LORD Thy God, Thou shall have no other God before Me……..
Why would Jesus be our Mediator if we could just go to both at the same time and worship bgoth? I ask Almighty God in Jesus Holy Name, when I pray to Almighty God, the God of the Universe….
Peace adn Love Irene
Irene, Mike, and Pierre
I see the Son as much a part of the Father as a ray is part of the sun. The Spirit is as much a part of both the Father and the Son as the heat is that comes from the rays and ultimately from the sun. You cannot benefit from the sun apart from it's rays, can you. Those who worshiped the sun, did they not include the rays as part of the sun and the heat as from the sun? I am not saying to worship the sun, so don't go there. I am giving you an analogy so that you can see why I worship the Father with His Son and His Spirit.The sun is a big ball of gas, right? The light rays are from the sun, light from light, the light rays (the Son) bring us light (He reveals the Father) and the heat that comforts us (the Spirit). I am not saying that the Spirit is an impersonal energy force so let me make that clear.
Do you see that IF I were a sun worshiper, I would worship the sun with the rays and heat that comes from it, not just the big ball of gas that is the source of the light rays and heat.
Please notice that in this analogy, the big ball of gas represents the Father, the light rays represent the Son, the heat represent the Spirit. There is only one ball of gas, not three balls of gas. There are light rays that are not the ball of gas itself but from the ball of gas as a natural extension from it and the heat that is a natural extension from the ball of gas through the rays.
There ya go. Think about a gardener when planting their seeds in a place to receiver 'full sun.' The full sun is not just the ball of gas 93 million miles away but also the light rays and heat that comes from it.
So when I say that you worship God in part, it is like you are 'worshiping' the sun apart from its light rays and heat. Come into the brighter day and out of the cloudy day with a fuller understanding of the 'full' God.
We turn our night into day by obtaining the Lord Jesus, the light from the light.
1 Thess 5:5-11
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
NASUWe only have knowledge in part:
1 Cor 13:8-13
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
NASUCould this be when God began emitting His light, the beginning of light rays so to speak as His Son?
Gen 1:3
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.This goes along with the analogy:
Matt 24:29-30
The Glorious Return 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
NASUHeb 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NASUA side analogy, the stars are the false gods, they are not the center of our universe, they are not our sun but we notice them when we are 'in the dark' so to speak.
Matt 24:29
THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
NASUBTW, I appreciate your love and concern for me and I have the same for you and that is why I posted this. I pray it 'enlightens' you, LOL.
Kathi
are thinking that i am that retarded?
all the verses you quote to prove your false approach to God worship,so that you may include Christ.
is of your own making,not scriptural.it is very difficult for some to accept the truth as it is and preach by Christ and his apostles,
so you are part of those of the end time ,who comes up with those strange new doctrines made to corrupt the true believers, you are a lost cause ,I now think that this is your making and so try to introduce corruption in truth of God.
Pierre
Pierre,
I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. If you don't like the idea of presenting understandind through analogies then you wouldn't have liked the parables that Christ shared either.Maybe you're problem is in the dark shades that you refuse to remove. Just saying.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2010,16:16) Pierre,
I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. If you don't like the idea of presenting understandind through analogies then you wouldn't have liked the parables that Christ shared either.Maybe you're problem is in the dark shades that you refuse to remove. Just saying.
Kathiok, give me the names of the early church so called fathers
that preach what you try to show ;;give me at the least six names,
Pierre
Kathi! When there are Scriptures that show that Allmighty God is the only true God, why would you then say it is right to worship Jesus like His Father who is above all, in
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
and
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
and
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
and
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one
and
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. LORD
Notice LORD and Jesus is Lord, we according to those Scriptures only worship our Heavenly Father….Also I will rather follow Scripture then those forefathers. They too make the mistake that you are making. IMO I also know that some believe in the trinity….. Like St. Augustine…..a Catholic. There was only the Roman Universal Church at that time. Tell me once you show us who they are and when they were born,that makes a difference.
Peace IreneQuote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,17:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2010,16:16) Pierre,
I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. If you don't like the idea of presenting understandind through analogies then you wouldn't have liked the parables that Christ shared either.Maybe you're problem is in the dark shades that you refuse to remove. Just saying.
Kathiok, give me the names of the early church so called fathers
that preach what you try to show ;;give me at the least six names,
Pierre
Pierre,
What do you think I've been doing with the majority of church father's quotes that I have been putting up? I can't think of any of the early church father's that did not consider the Son and Spirit as 'OF' the Father-the one true God. They say the son was begotten of the Father, the spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son. They worshiped the Father with His Son and His Holy Spirit. Several wrote about the Father and Son being like the sun emitting its rays.Haven't you been reading the quotes?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2010,20:59) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,17:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2010,16:16) Pierre,
I am not introducing new things. The early church father's were saying the same thing maybe not in the same words. The scriptures that I put up were to show that the scriptures tie the light theme into Christ and the scriptures say that He is the radiance of God's glory. The sun's light rays are the radiance of the sun. If you don't like the idea of presenting understandind through analogies then you wouldn't have liked the parables that Christ shared either.Maybe you're problem is in the dark shades that you refuse to remove. Just saying.
Kathiok, give me the names of the early church so called fathers
that preach what you try to show ;;give me at the least six names,
Pierre
Pierre,
What do you think I've been doing with the majority of church father's quotes that I have been putting up? I can't think of any of the early church father's that did not consider the Son and Spirit as 'OF' the Father-the one true God. They say the son was begotten of the Father, the spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son. They worshiped the Father with His Son and His Holy Spirit. Several wrote about the Father and Son being like the sun emitting its rays.Haven't you been reading the quotes?
kathii only saw a couple and those names are not the best,
so could you give me more than just a few sinse you say there are so many,just there names
Pierre
Pierre and Irene,
Here is one (second post from the top):
Theophilus
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….11;st=0Then there is Tatian, seventh post from the top:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….1;st=20And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation,434434 κατὰ μερισμόν. Some translate, “by division,” but the above is preferable. The sense, according to Otto, is that the Logos, having received a peculiar nature, shares in the rational power of the Father as a lighted torch partakes of the light of the torch from which it is kindled.
And…Cyril,
“Desiring to investigate the Mystery of the economy with flesh of the Only Begotten, we say this, holding true doctrine and right faith, that the Word Himself out of God the Father, Very God out of Very God, the Light That is out of Light, was Incarnate and made Man,…”
Third post from the top:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….1;st=30
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
